TP 600E Keyboard Trouble -- Dead Keys

[Nigellus]

In early 2002, my brother, seeing how marvelous my TP 600E was, bought one for himself (at some $150 less than mine cost, as per the adjusted going rate after the T series was introduced). During the latter half of 2003, keys started going dead. At first it was just a couple (and sometimes they would come back to life after being dead), but it progressed to its present condition of more than 2 dozen being dead. In fact, the problem resembles, in the pattern of the dead keys, the problem hjulian was having back in February of this year, with most of the dead keys being throughout the center of the keyboard, though in my brother's case, keys like Shift, Delete, and the left, down, & right arrows also don't respond. (See http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=21747 for hjulian's troubles.

At first, I thought it was a loose connection, especially since it was intermittent at first (with keys coming back to life and sometimes switching where one would be dead one day and the other would be dead another day). So I opened his machine up and checked the connections. The smaller connector (I don't have the proper name in front of me) was a little loose, so I made sure it was seated tightly. This had no effect whatsoever.

In the next phase of the examination (should have been my first, probably), I started the computer in the diagnostic mode and tested the keyboard, with the exact same results I had gotten just from typing -- a total of 27 or so dead keys. When I tested the different components, I got a sub-optimal result from the SystemBoard. The result read as follows:

Dev 001
Err 91
FRU 3610

Am I correct in assuming that this error message corresponds to 191 in the manual (which essentially tells me the same thing -- that something is wrong with the SystemBoard)?

Does anyone know if that means it could be a SystemBoard problem and not a keyboard problem?

If so, what are my options? My brother has been denied the use of a ThinkPad for too long, and I would really like to get this one working properly again.

It is running Win 98, has a 6GB hard drive, a 366MHz Pentium II processor, and 288 MB of RAM. The only symptom of a problem is that the keyboard doesn’t work properly.

[rkawakami]

"Dev 001" error refers to the systemboard (motherboard). I'm not sure what the "Err 91" is trying to say; I looked at the HMM and it's not clear to me what/how to lookup that error code. The "FRU 3610" means that device 36, or the battery pack and device 10, again the system board. I'm assuming it means the main battery, but could also reference the CMOS battery. If you can replace those with other known good batteries, then try that. You should be able to operate the laptop with the AC charger by itself to rule out the main battery. If the problem is indeed caused by the CMOS battery, you'll need to replace it. Otherwise...

Three possible areas of trouble for "dead" keys:

1) keyboard and/or the ribbon cable connected to it
2) the Sub Card; board which the ribbon cable plugs into
3) the motherboard

My order of suspicion is the same as above. Assuming you've separated the keyboard from the rest of the system (unplugging that hard-to-get-to connector at the back), inspected it, looking for obvious tears or breaks in the cable, then that's about all you can do for the keyboard. Continue to disassemble the laptop and pull out the Sub Card (long thin card that the keyboard plugs into and has that easily broken lid switch on the left). Inspect both top and bottom connectors for any damage (broken/bent pins). Same goes for the connector on the motherboard. If all looks good, then reassemble the laptop and test the keyboard. If it still doesn't work, replace it (the keyboard). Even though the Sub Card is cheaper, I don't think that there's a high probability that it's the cause of the error. Replacing the motherboard is a toss-up. The cost could be close to the value of the system itself.

edit: Forgot to mention.. that small connector from the keyboard to the Sub Card? That's only for the Trackpoint. It won't affect any keys on the keyboard itself. The larger ribbon cable that's bent real tightly near the back end of the laptop is the one for the keyboard. That's why I would suspect the keyboard to be the source of the problem.

[Nigellus]

Thanks, Ray, that was a huge help.

You're going to love this. The cable apparently was torn at one time. It has been MacGuyvered (badly as it turns out) back together with tape. I am defiantly getting my brother a new keyboard. Unplugging the bigger connector was tough, but getting it back in was nigh impossible (the cable was too stiff). As I suspected, my fiddling with the cable had not improved the situation.

As for the SystemBoard test, you were right; I popped my unit's battery in and it tested out just fine.

Something weird, though... after I put my brother's machine back together and ran a diagnostic, the testing format had changed slightly... for some reason, the computer now gives me information; it tells me what it's doing as it's doing it, which is really helpful, because it also tells me what's wrong in plain language. Any ideas on what I did to cause this? I would like it if my own ThinkPad diagnostic was as informative... right now, it is exactly like my brother's was before I opened it up -- it just does its thing without talking to me while its doing it... of course there's nothing wrong with my machine now, but if there ever was, a more communicative diagnostic would be helpful.

Does anyone know how to reattach the screw covers? Will the sticky stuff on them re-bond well, or do I need a fresh application? (my instinct leans toward the latter, but you never know). And if so, what is it and where can I acquire it?

Thanks in advance.

[RRHODY]

I don't know if this will help you, but I had a similar experience with a 600 keyboard I bought on eBay. When I got it, I did the keyboard test while it was connected to a 600 bottom. There were several keys that didn't respond. I thought the keyboard was defective. Got a second keyboard and the same pattern of defective keys appeared during the test. I switched the daughter card, and BOTH keyboards tested OK.
BTW, there are two ribbon connectors from the keyboard to the daughter card; one nearest the back edge and the widest is for the keys AND the trackpoint. The smaller, and most delicate, one is only for the speakers- it has nothing to do with the trackpoint. I say delicate because I've ruined at least three trying to get the ribbon cable disconnected. The plug on the end is easily removed from the ribbon. It takes hardly any effort to separate the two <G>.

[rkawakami]

RRHODY is quite right . The smaller connector IS for the speakers. I was typing my previous statements based upon my memory (which, as it turns out is faulty. Time to change to an ECC module ). I haven't opened up a 600 series system in quite a long time.

[Nigellus]

Thanks, guys.

***Update***

I have managed to purchase the lifeless shell of a 600E off of eBay for just under $40 including shipping. I was hoping for just under $30, but the going price for even non-functional ThinkPads is fairly high. Now I'm waiting...

I'll let you know if the new keyboard works.

Any thoughts on the sticky substance holding the screw covers on? Is it a form of rubber cement?

[rkawakami]

Any thoughts on the sticky substance holding the screw covers on? Is it a form of rubber cement?

If you are talking about the black plastic circles, ovals or squares covering some of the exterior screw holes, then I think it is simply the same self-adhesive stuff that you would find on a self-stick label. As such, I generally put these things down on a piece of waxed paper, the same type of paper that stickers come on.

[Nigellus]

[I generally put these things down on a piece of waxed paper, the same type of paper that stickers come on.

BRILLIANT!!!!!

They seemed to re-adhere pretty well, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks.

[Nigellus]

The dead 600E arrived. And it was hardly a "shell" as described -- I got a little more out of the deal than I expected, which makes it worth the buy (plus I get a new monitor to replace my 600E's scratched one), but the keyboard might not be in the greatest shape. It looks great. I plugged it into my brother's machine and fired her up, but got a new error code: 8611. The computer itself seemed to think that there is something wrong with how the connector was seated. I hope that's all it is, I will examine it in more detail later tonight.

I plugged in the mouse and hit F1 for the diagnostics menu and tested the new one for dead keys. The good news is I'm almost positive it's the keyboard and not my brother's motherboard. The only items on the new keyboard showing up as dead are the trackpoint and some keys on the left edge (the the right bottom corner). Almost every key that was dead on the old one works on this one; but it's a little worse because the machine doesn't want to boot into Windows with the 8611 error.

I noticed the Drewski's thread at http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=33970 and I am really, really hoping that it is just the way the cable is seated in my brother's unit.

[rkawakami]

You can temporarily disable the Trackpoint in BIOS to get rid of the 8611 error. I just did it to a new 600E I received yesterday. Reference this post:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=21091#133875

for complete details. The short version is that you enter BIOS, select the Config menu, press CTRL-D, modify a byte in the table, save and re-boot. The change is reversible when you get a keyboard that has a working Trackpoint. I'm going to be on the lookout on eBay for a 600 keyboard so I hope I don't bump into you .