Thinkpads Forum

I'm trying to re-spec an old 600x (don't have serial # at the moment) to be the best it can be in terms of speed. I know there is a stickied upgrade thread, but this isn't a traditional upgrade question. Basically, if people know any way to exceed these numbers below, please let me know (I have the parts for most of this but haven't yet tacked them on):

-Processor: 918 Mhz from a PIII 850Mhz overclocked to 918Mhz with FSB overclock to 108Mhz with a resistor; non-speedstep mobo (500mhz proc) made compatible via a resistor
-RAM: 576mb: 2x256mb Crucial PC133 running at 100mhz + 64mb built in
-Hard drive: X GB 7200rpm hdd
-Video: Voodoo 5 5500 64MB PCI on SelectaDock III with SelectaBase
-Audio: Some sort of PCI card on same docking setup
-Misc stuff: Mini-PCI Intel Pro Wireless wireless card, DVD-R drive

Specifically I'm wondering if anyone's tried replacing the soldered RAM with something a bit higher, if anyone's put a DVD-RW in place of a DVD-R, and if there's a way to overclock the thing more.

Finally, as far as playing DVD's is concerned, should I have any trouble once I have the Voodoo card in? Would it make the Margi card necessary?

I realize anything more, or even hardware at this point is already bottlenecked at the 4MB video card (ignoring the Voodoo card, which I think makes the processor a bottleneck); this is more just to see what kind of hardware can be put in the machine. Also, I know there are gonna be some heating issues, with the faster processor, overclocking the faster processor, 7200 hdd, and video card in the dock. I have some Arctic Silver, and I hear the 600x fan is pretty good; I may also get a Targus Tornado, but that isn't too cost effective. Is there anything else in terms of cooling I should know about?

I am not familiar with the 600X so I can't help, but it sounds like an exciting project! BTW, welcome to Thinkpads.com!

Thanks! I have a very similar T43 by the way. Great machine...

As pianowizard says, sounds exciting! I'm very keen on tracking maximum upgrades to the 600X. Welcome to the Forum, and please do keep us posted.

spikex34 wrote:-Processor: 918 Mhz (PIII 850Mhz overclocked to 918Mhz with FSB overclock to 108Mhz with a resistor; non-speedstep mobo made compatible with a resistor)

Why the non-speedstep mobo? I haven't really investigated this, but can you only do the overclocking on the non-SpeedStep mobo? Just curious.

spikex34 wrote:-Audio: Some sort of PCI card on same docking setup

I'm currently running an Audigy 2 card in my SelectaDock III, so I expect that there is no upper limit to the sound card here -- you can use the best PCI sound card available.

spikex34 wrote:Specifically I'm wondering if anyone's tried replacing the soldered RAM with something a bit higher, if anyone's put a DVD-RW in place of a DVD-R, and if there's a way to overclock the thing more.

You can definitely stick a DVD-RW in your 600X. For one list of potential drives, consult my draft list in Find the right optical drive to fit 600X. My Toshiba SD-R6372 works like a charm. You should be able to use a better DVD-RW than that, but I wanted to find one that could use the same bezel/faceplate as the original 600X CD/DVD drive.

spikex34 wrote:I realize anything more, or even hardware at this point is already bottlenecked at the 4MB video card (ignoring the Voodoo card, which I think makes the processor a bottleneck); this is more just to see what kind of hardware can be put in the machine.

From what I can tell, when you've got a Voodoo card installed (or any high-end PCI graphics card), the bottleneck may actually be the PCI bus itself, rather than the CPU.

I find that under certain conditions, playing xVid or other highly compressed videos, especially while streaming them online, I actually get better display results when I am undocked, and I also get some improvements under 98SE over XP. My current theory about this is that under 98SE I have carefully tweaked the PCI IRQs so that there is no conflict or sharing amongst components, but under XP, much of that control is taken away and performed automatically. And the difference when docked is that I am trying to push too much data through the PCI bus. If I try to use a USB 2.0 device through my USB card at the same time that I am running a video through my video and sound cards, my display will get choppy. But when I am undocked, the exact same video will display smoothly using the original 4MB Neomagic video card and ThinkPad LCD screen. This suggests to me that in certain cases, the bottleneck is actually on the docking station bus somewhere and not in the CPU. If you can figure out how to eliminate that bottleneck, that would be very exciting!

Phil.

Why the non-speedstep mobo? I haven't really investigated this, but can you only do the overclocking on the non-SpeedStep mobo? Just curious.

I don't know. I don't think so. I would guess it would work for both. I can only seem to find one site on the overclocking though, which I don't think mentioned anything about that.

I'm currently running an Audigy 2 card in my SelectaDock III, so I expect that there is no upper limit to the sound card here -- you can use the best PCI sound card available.

Interesting, thanks.

You can definitely stick a DVD-RW in your 600X. For one list of potential drives, consult my draft list in Find the right optical drive to fit 600X. My Toshiba SD-R6372 works like a charm. You should be able to use a better DVD-RW than that, but I wanted to find one that could use the same bezel/faceplate as the original 600X CD/DVD drive.

Thanks for the help again.

From what I can tell, when you've got a Voodoo card installed (or any high-end PCI graphics card), the bottleneck may actually be the PCI bus itself, rather than the CPU.

Really? I didn't realize the card was that good... interesting again. The PCI thing can't really have anything done about it though as far as I know.

..words..

Ok, I really want to try this out. I haven't got a SelectaDock III yet, just the SelectaBase, but I was wondering if you knew what the dock used (something standard like PCI?) to communicate with the computer. It's really too bad there's just no way to put a better mobo with a better card in the laptop.

Thanks for your insight again. I ordered all of this on ebay; I'm at school now and the laptop is at home, along with where all the parts are being delivered. I'm going back home in about two weeks, so I'll keep you guys posted.

spikex34 wrote:

From what I can tell, when you've got a Voodoo card installed (or any high-end PCI graphics card), the bottleneck may actually be the PCI bus itself, rather than the CPU.

Really? I didn't realize the card was that good... interesting again. The PCI thing can't really have anything done about it though as far as I know.

Oh it's a very good video card, but what I mean is that the PCI bus in the SelectaDock/ThinkPad combo is actually flawed. Normally, a PCI bus could never be the choke point for video or sound compared to the CPU or video card, but in this specific configuration, the PCI bus appears to be abnormal.

Hummmmm, an absolutely interesting post !!!

Deserves a flag !

What HDD will you use in that monster ?

W.

I'm pretty sure it was a HTS7K100 (Hitachi Travelstar, 60GB 7200rpm). I couldn't seem to find a 7K travelstar that had <60GB, which would have been a little cheaper, but it's not that big a deal. And again, these are all getting shipped home, where I won't be for almost two weeks, so I have yet to see if it's going to work. Someone else on the forum posted that a 7K60 worked fine, so I don't forsee any problems.


PKIFF, is there any price you'd put on the 850 proc you got in your 600x?

spikex34 wrote:I couldn't seem to find a 7K travelstar that had <60GB, which would have been a little cheaper

I'm running 40GB 7200rpm Hitachi Travelstars in both my 600X's and in my 770Z these days. All work great. You will have no trouble with the 60GB.

spikex34 wrote:PKIFF, is there any price you'd put on the 850 proc you got in your 600x?

Ha ha! No, not selling. But the price of these CPUs has come down a bit in the past 3-4 months. I've started to see them for in and around $100 USD or even a bit less. Previously, they were pushing $150. I'm glad to have the 850, because I like the idea of having maxed out my CPU, but in practice, the difference between the 850 and the 800, or even the 750, is very small and not noticeable in most applications.

Phil.

Hi
The standard shared PCI bus (32-bit/33MHz) with its 133 MB/sec isn't fast enough to feed any modern video card (not even modern ones either). That is why, the built-in video (despite its age) may work faster as it uses the AGP 2x bus which is a dedicated bus with 533 MB/sec throughput.
Just my two cents.
Val

vkim wrote:The standard shared PCI bus (32-bit/33MHz) with its 133 MB/sec isn't fast enough to feed any modern video card (not even modern ones either).

Are you sure about this? I mean, there are lots of people running 256MB nVidia FX5xxx or ATI 9250 Radeon PCI cards on standard, shared PCI buses who don't report the kinds of throughput problems I'm talking about. Sure, there are limits to the PCI bus, but I thought that you didn't really run into them until you were maxing out your 3D textures and resolution in some kind of recent graphics-intensive game. Playing an Xvid movie shouldn't max out your PCI bus.

vkim wrote:That is why, the built-in video (despite its age) may work faster as it uses the AGP 2x bus which is a dedicated bus with 533 MB/sec throughput.

Maybe, but I had the impression that on the 600X, the AGP 2x bus was only half-way there -- that the bus actually runs at PCI speeds despite claiming to be an AGP bus. I don't know the exact details about this, but that's my impression.

Phil.

I use to have the 600X with the most incredible Absolute Best Specs for 600x but i sold it.

cmarti - was the bluetooth part of the wifi card?

spikex34 wrote:cmarti - was the bluetooth part of the wifi card?

I got one that was 802.11G and also bluetooth but i never got it working,i get bluetooth with this.

It only extends 2 or 3 milimeters from the laptop and the software i cames with is excelent.

Carlos.

Nice, it's just a tad expensive @ $38.00 (although compared to the proc, RAM, and harddrive, it's not so bad). Maybe once I get the rest of this going I'll tack that on. I bought an IPW a/b/g card without bluetooth.

Any ideas on putting USB2.0 in without PCI? I was thinking of taking apart a really small form factor 2.0 hub, and trying to find a spot for it in the case. It's not really a fully formed idea yet... I'd have to work out how the usb side that normally plugs into the computer would interface with the mobo, etc.

Also, the Thinklight mod seems interesting too (see here). I'm a little worried about opening up the monitor area, as it's already not doing too well though (inconsistent brightness). However, just tacking a small LCD light with some wires to the top of the screen frame seems pretty un-intrusive. I would have some kind of external switch and really small battery (similar to the battery in a watch) stuffed inside the case as well. I'm not sure if there's space for it, but it would be kind of cool.

pkiff wrote:

vkim wrote:The standard shared PCI bus (32-bit/33MHz) with its 133 MB/sec isn't fast enough to feed any modern video card (not even modern ones either).

Are you sure about this? I mean, there are lots of people running 256MB nVidia FX5xxx or ATI 9250 Radeon PCI cards on standard, shared PCI buses who don't report the kinds of throughput problems I'm talking about. Sure, there are limits to the PCI bus, but I thought that you didn't really run into them until you were maxing out your 3D textures and resolution in some kind of recent graphics-intensive game. Playing an Xvid movie shouldn't max out your PCI bus.

Phil.

Here is why I think that way:

You are right pointing to another issue with graphics-intensive apps.
In such case both bus speed (either AGP or PCI) and GPU speed are important and hence can become a bottleneck.
In case of MPEG-4, since all the decoding is done by CPU (unless there is a hardware decoder), the GPU speed is not really relevant. The uncompressed video stream goes to the video card via the system bus (in this case PCI).

Depending on the resolution, that video stream will take quite a bit of the PCI bandwidth:

Standard NTSC DVD resolution = (720*480) frame size * 24 bit color depth/8 * 30 frames/sec /(1024*1024) = ~ 30 MB/sec.

Full Screen (XGA) resolution = (1024*768) frame size * 24 bit color depth/8 * 30 frames/sec / (1024*1024) = 67.5 MB/sec.

So, when you just watch a movie it works ok. However, once you add something intensive such as mentioned USB2 data transfer: the burst rate up to 40-50 MB/sec for IDE HDD + up to the same 40-50 MB/sec for USB2 Storage (assuming the USB2 storage is a hard drive, in case of flash media it will be lower) you can see the noticeable packet drops. It could’ve been better if PCI had supported QoS to reserve the bandwidth for video, but there is no such thing (PCI express has it though). The only way to improve the MPEG4 video on the PCI I could think of is a video card with a hardware MPEG 4 decoder.

As per 600x AGP specifics, I am not aware of details; however since 440BX Northbridge supports AGP 2x natively, why IBM would not be using it.

Thanks,
Val

spikex34 wrote: Any ideas on putting USB2.0 in without PCI? I was thinking of taking apart a really small form factor 2.0 hub, and trying to find a spot for it in the case. It's not really a fully formed idea yet... I'd have to work out how the usb side that normally plugs into the computer would interface with the mobo, etc.

I am afraid this may not be possible as you need a USB 2 controller (which is not part of a USB hub) that unfortunately needs to be connected to the PCI bus.
Sorry for bad news

Val

vkim wrote:

pkiff wrote:Are you sure about this? I mean, there are lots of people running 256MB nVidia FX5xxx or ATI 9250 Radeon PCI cards on standard, shared PCI buses who don't report the kinds of throughput problems I'm talking about.

Here is why I think that way[...]

Interesting info, thanks.

Note that I've also done some fairly extensive testing of my machine to try to get around this issue: including using lower screen resolutions (800x600x256), changing video cards, upgrading sound card, pulling USB card out, pulling Internet connection out, changing OS, playing with "PCI latency", installing with standard HAL instead of ACPI, and a couple others. None of these things entirely got rid of what I'm calling a throttling/throughput issue. It is certainly possible that the throttling takes place somewhere other than the PCI bus, but it does seem to be somehow related to the SelectaDock, since comparisons between docked and undocked configurations display visible differences.

So maybe the presence of the AGP video bus really does explain the difference. I guess I thought that if I had a regular PCI desktop with the same specs that I would get better xVid performance out of it than I seem to get in actual practice: PIII 850, 576MB, 64MB Voodoo 5, Audigy 2, 40GB 7200rpm.

Phil.

What is the S/N of the dock with PCI port ?

Do you have that ?

Thx !

W.

WarMachine wrote:What is the S/N of the dock with PCI port ?

For part numbers and a few links, check out this post in the Direct 3D Acceleration on 600X thread.

Phil.

Thx !

W.

For MPEG-4 playback, you can one of REALMagic cards:
for example:
http://www.hopoint.com/xcard.htm

I've never used them but according to TomsHardware they do the job:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2002/06/21/ ... index.html

All you need a spare PCI slot (in addition to a video card). It does not use PCI to pump the decoded stream (uses the loop cable instead) so there should be no issues with PCI bandwidth.

Val

Forgive my ignorance as I've only ever owned laptops, but what would happen if you tried to stick an AGP Voodoo 5 in the SelectaDock III? Would it even fit?

spikex34 wrote:Forgive my ignorance as I've only ever owned laptops, but what would happen if you tried to stick an AGP Voodoo 5 in the SelectaDock III? Would it even fit?

No, it wouldn't fit: the connectors are different. And even if you somehow managed to modify the connectors to force it to fit, it wouldn't run. AGP and PCI cannot be interchanged.

vkim wrote:For MPEG-4 playback, you can one of REALMagic cards...All you need a spare PCI slot (in addition to a video card). It does not use PCI to pump the decoded stream (uses the loop cable instead) so there should be no issues with PCI bandwidth.

Interesting, never seen those cards before. But my PCI slots are all taken: Voodoo 5, Audigy 2, 4-port USB 2.0. And before you ask, yes, my SelectaDock PCMCIA slots are also taken: RealPort Ethernet/Modem.

I must admit though that I'm not quite convinced that this would get around the problem -- since I still think my skipping/throughput issues are related to a faulty or sub-par implementation of the PCI spec in the SelectaDock system/motherboard. I don't mean that as a slag on the IBM designers. Heck, when the SelectaDock appeared in 1997, this docking station was so far ahead of the game that everyone else was left in the dust. As far as I'm concerned, the SelectaDock III puts all other docking stations of its era to shame. But it still had its problems -- and its designers were aware of many -- you can see a list of limitations in the Product Overview - Selectadock III from the IBM site. Note in particular, the limitation:

A PCI Video Adapter Card and PCI Network Adapter Card cannot be used at the same time in the SelectaDock III.

!! (Though in my testing it turns out that this limitation is not 100% accurate, as I've managed to get both working in certain configs. The point here is that this is not a standard old PCI bus that works the way all PCI buses work).

My next step in testing is to try and get an ATI Radeon 9250 and see if I can successfully install that card in the SelectaDock.

But really, I'm pretty happy with the performance I'm getting with this old goat. When I want to watch DVDs or xVid/DivX videos, I use my TV now anyways -- either with a standalone player or my TV-out port. Or for best performance in my primary docked system, I reboot into my second ("gaming") boot config: barebones Win98SE with no additional devices beyond the video card and sound card.

About the only annoying thing at the moment is that I don't get as smooth performance watching Youtube videos when docked as I should (certainly not as smooth as when I am undocked). But I can live with this, and I have an alternate docking arrangement in my house without a video card that I can use if I know I'm in for a long YouTube session.

Phil.

Hello again..

Most of my items have arrived now. A couple of questions..

I presume the bay on the right side of the SelectaDock III (which is freaking enormous, by the way) can hold a hard drive and something else as well? Tests with putting a 3.5" in there didn't end up being successful.

Fixed the CD-ROM problem I was having.

spikex34 wrote:I presume the bay on the right side of the SelectaDock III (which is freaking enormous, by the way) can hold a hard drive and something else as well? Tests with putting a 3.5" in there didn't end up being successful.

The right side of the SelectaDock III should fit any normal standard desktop device. I have a Plextor Plexwriter CD-RW in one and a 300GB hard drive in another. But you can't put in two devices in the same bay. I've never tried to put a floppy drive in, but in general any standard desktop device should work fine.

You can also use devices from the 770 series in the bay on the left side of the dock: most "UltraBay II" devices will work, and I normally have a floppy drive in there.

Phil.

Err.. I meant a 3.5" harddrive. I uninstalled Linux though, since I think it was making things harder. I have Windows 2000 on there now.

Also, I feel extremely stupid for asking this, but I can't seem to get Windows 2000 to recognize my Voodoo card. Does it only work with an external monitor, or can I utilize it for the laptop screen as well. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to, but that thought occurred to me. I've installed the amigamerlin driver from 3dfxzone.it as well, but nothing shows up under display adapters for the card. Any ideas?

A video card in a dock can only be used on an external monitor.

Ok, that's the best thing I heard all week. I thought I got a dud card or something.