Thinkpads Forum

I have a 600E P2 366MHz running XP. When I originally purchased the 600E , it had the 161/163/Supervisory password problem which I was able to resolve (new CMOS battery etc).

However, the 600E is not booting at power up. Usually, I just get a black screen. Sometimes, I get the RAM OK check and IBM logo and then the 600E hangs. But if I keep on powering up , eventually , I get the white bar running across the screen and XP loads up. Once XP in loaded, the 600E is very stable - I left it running for 2 weeks with no problems:)

I have researched the archives and have tried several possible fixes such as:-

- change RAM/try other slot. I am using 128MHz PC100 but also tried PC66 32MB (which works OK in my 570)
- use reset button

I got to thinking that maybe the problem was corruption of the Master Boot Record or a HDD problem. So I decided to use another HDD and install a fresh copy of XP.

Installing XP when OK except that the 600E did hang at one stage so I started again. Eventually the install when OK except that there was no audio or modem. But after I "initialized" the BIOS , everything appeared to be working OK. I even powered down 3 times and the 600E started everytime - I though the problem was fixed and that "initializing" the BIOS was the solution.

However , the next day , booting from "cold" , the problem was back. I needed to power up 20 times (maybe more!!!). Just when you think the 600E is never going to boot , suddenly it does. Most of the time you get a black screen (its not an LCD problem) , occassionally the 600E hangs at the IBM logo but eventually it boots.

I'm now thinking maybe its a "thermal" hardware problem. Today , I switched on a couple of times and then just left the 600E with the "orange" HDD and green power light on and with the fan and HDD whirling. After an hour , it "only" took 5 goes to boot up the 600E!! However , I noticed that if I leave the 600E playing a CD , sometimes it does hang. With the original HDD/XP installation , it was being used in Excel/Word/Poerpoint with no problems for 2 weeks with no power down.

I also tried removing the CMOS battery and HDD and expected the 600E to boot into BIOS but it did not - maybe it would have done if I had tried it 20 times - but maybe I need a floppy drive attached to boot into BIOS - I'm not sure.

Does anybody have any thoughts why I need to switch on my 600E 20-30 times before it boots into XP? Maybe I should reseat all the internal connectors, CPU etc?

Thanks

I had a 600e and T21 that were playing up like yours. My first suspect was memory so I ran memtest86+ on them. Surely I had defective memory even though POST reports them to be OK. The 600e had its 32mb built-in memory with errors which I remedied by disabling it in the bios. Yours may be different, but it is worth a try to test your memory with a utility designed for more thorough tests.

Cheers.

I've had somewhat of a similar problem with T2x systems, although it was more like it wouldn't turn on at all even after many power-up tries or Windows would hang in the middle of installing. The solution in some of those cases was to remove the MiniPCI modem card. With the 600E I believe that the modem is integrated onto the motherboard so that's not an option.

You should be able to boot into the BIOS with everything removed from the system. This includes the memory modules since there's onboard memory. Definitely give all of the connectors a good check. However, there still may be a problem on the motherboard itself which is causing this. To me it sounds very much like a bad solder connection given the "thermal" description.

The modem in a 600e is on a card of its own.

Ah, thank you for that correction! (Haven't opened up a 600E for quite some time.) If that's the case, maybe try removing the card and see if that helps.

Thanks all for the feedback.

I'm actually typing this reply on the 600E.

I am updating the IBM drivers including Windows Install Supplements and Config Utility. As I am using a replacement HDD , there is off course no original Thinkpad drivers installed. Maybe I also need to update the BIOS although I don't have a good battery so will need to use the "batteryless" trick. Does anybody know if boot problems could be because the original IBM Thinkpad drivers are not installed?

The 600E has hung a couple of times - once when I was installing some AVG updates. It also hung when I eventually managed to access the BIOS - the flying duck stopped moving. However , eventually I managed to carry out a BIOS test and it checked out OK - system board - Memory etc. However , I will also try Memtest86+

I read somewhere about start up problems being due to a duff capacitor on the system board - has anybody located and replaced this cap? Are there any common dry joint areas on the system board?

OK on the possible modem problem - it seems to be working at the moment!! (assuming its used to connect to the internet (but could be intermintant I guess)

I forgot to ask if anybody knows how to disable the internal 32MB ram?? I think its done in BIOS but I don't know how?

When I carried out the BIOS Memory Test , it came up with something like "Installed 163,840 KB , Usable 163,264 KB ie there is a difference of around 580KB - is this normal or does it mean there is some corruption in the RAM?

Also , does Memtest86+ check the internal RAM as well as the external modules?

Also , what is the best way to run the test. Can you do it from the HDD or do you need to use a CD or USB flash drive? I read the internet site but its a bit unclear. Also , will a USB floppy drive work with Memtest86+ or do you need to use a "proper" floppy drive?

Thanks

g8tzl wrote:I forgot to ask if anybody knows how to disable the internal 32MB ram?? I think its done in BIOS but I don't know how?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 901#184901

g8tzl wrote:When I carried out the BIOS Memory Test , it came up with something like "Installed 163,840 KB , Usable 163,264 KB ie there is a difference of around 580KB - is this normal or does it mean there is some corruption in the RAM?

I believe that this is normal. Part of the memory space used by the system (640KB IIRC).

g8tzl wrote:Also , does Memtest86+ check the internal RAM as well as the external modules?

Yes. Although I'm unclear as to whether or not it relocates itself to test the memory that it starts running from.

g8tzl wrote:Also , what is the best way to run the test.

I've only used bootable floppy disks and CDs to run memtest86+. Don't know if you can run it directly from the HDD. As the 600E probably cannot boot from a flash drive, I'd have to say that that option is out.

I've only used bootable floppy disks and CDs to run memtest86+. Don't know if you can run it directly from the HDD.

You can, but probably wouldn't want to, since memtest86+ is a boot system and would have to be written to some bootable medium before use. That means you have to have the program that generates the bootable medium somewhere - on a CD, a diskette or on the HDD - and you need a separate medium to write to (generally a diskette). Theoretically you could write memtest86+ to a HDD, but naturally this would mean any data on the HDD would be lost or at least hard to recover.

As the 600E probably cannot boot from a flash drive, I'd have to say that that option is out.

I've never tried it, but this might work if you boot from a Smart Boot Manager diskette (http://btmgr.sourceforge.net/download.html). This will let you boot from anything that is recognized in the BIOS, even when the BIOS doesn't support booting from the device.

So if you don't have a diskette drive to put memtest86+ on and boot from, how are you going to put Smart Boot Manager on a diskette and boot from it?

So if you don't have a diskette drive to put memtest86+ on and boot from, how are you going to put Smart Boot Manager on a diskette and boot from it?

Frankly, I'd make sure I did have a diskette drive... even in this day and age there are things that work (better) that way. But naturally you can also put Smart Boot Manager on a CDR if you absolutely must. How you would get it there without someone else first generating the ISO for you to burn would be another question. The bottom line is that, like it or not, diskette drives are still useful. And cheap, I might add.

All good and valid points, but from the OP's last post,

g8tzl wrote:Also , what is the best way to run the test. Can you do it from the HDD or do you need to use a CD or USB flash drive? I read the internet site but its a bit unclear. Also , will a USB floppy drive work with Memtest86+ or do you need to use a "proper" floppy drive?

it seems like a standard (Ultrabay or IBM external) floppy drive is not available. At least that's how I read that statement. With the 600 series, you can either use an Ultraslimbay floppy inside the Ultrabay or the same floppy drive in the external housing (connected via the jack on the right side of the 600).

My "collection" of Thinkpad stuff does not yet include a 600E Ultrabay floppy drive or an external floppy drive. I have a 360/760 external floppy drive and a USB floppy drive which does work with the 600E. I will therefore use a CD to run Memtest86+

Last night I installed various Thinkpad drivers/supplements as well as the config utility. Unfortunately , when I switched on this morning , it still would not boot However , I left it powered (orange/green light and whirling) for an hour and then it only took a couple of switch on to get the 600E to boot into XP.

So I guess the next step is to run Memtest86+ and then dismantle and check all the connections.

Could a poor CPU connection be causing boot problems or would I get various error messages at boot up - like the 161/163 error codes etc

Yes, a bad CPU connection could be causing the boot problems but the 161/163 errors should only be related to the CMOS (backup) battery. It is either dead or not properly connected to the motherboard.

Ray - I was meaning "similar" error codes to 161/163 if CPU was duff.

Once again , if left for an hour , the 600E boots after a couple of switch on's.

Memtest86+ : I have tried to create a CD to run Memtest86+. However , when I boot from the CD , all I get is :

8000
8000
8000
etc

I have checked the archives and others have posted a similar problem. I have tried 2 versions of Memtest86+ and 2 versions of the original Memtest86.

I am using a Verbatim CD-RW disk and an external USB CD-RW drive and Deepburner software. I have burnt an ISO image but maybe I am doing something wrong. I also put Memtest86+ on a floppy and this worked OK on my 380XD (which has a built in CD-ROM / floppy). However , the 380XD also only displayed a vertical column of 8000's - so I guess its not due to duff internal RAM in the 600E. I've tried erasing the CD-RW several times but its always the same column of "8000's". Any thoughts on the "8000" issue?

I will now try to burn a Memtest86+ disk using XP on my 600E although I'm not sure you can burn ISO images using XP?

I downloaded the iso of memtest86 version 3.3 (is this the plus version?) and burned to CD-R with Nero. The results with booting my 600e and 600x were the same as yours, a column of 8000's. However the CD did work properly on an A31P so it is something incompatible with older PC's and not a bad CD.

The floppy version of memtest86 runs fine on both the 600e and 600x when booting from an external drive connected to the port on the right side of the PC. I got mine on Ebay for $10 including shipping and it is well worth having.

Just curious, what is the FRU number of your system board? It should be on a sticker visible if your remove the memory cover and maybe one of the modules.

I downloaded the iso of memtest86 version 3.3 (is this the plus version?)

The current memtest86+ version is 1.70 and it's available at http://www.memtest.org. Both the diskette and a bootable ISO image for a CD are available for download there. I have no idea what this other program is or why it's giving problems, but I've used the diskette version of memtest86+ on everything from a 760EL to a T21 and have never experienced anything like what you describe.

At this link I found a reference to three memory test programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memtest86+

Memtest86 is the original and Memtest86+ and RAM Probe are derivative programs that share the same base code. I have also had no problem running Memtest86 from a bootable floppy disk but the bootable CD failed on my 600 series machines. I haven't tried Memtest86+ but g8tzl reports it behaves like Memtest86 when booting from CD.

BillP - thanks for the feedback. Its useful to know that others are having problems with running MemTest86/MemTest86+ using a bootable CD on a 600E.

I wanted to check whether the internal memory was causing my boot problem. Anyway, I did the BIOS mod which disables the internal memory. The disabling worked with the RAM check reading around 130,000 KB (rather than 160,000 KB). Sadly , I still have the switch on problem - so its not the internal memory. I've also tried both an external 128MB and a 32MB module - the 128MB was also a brand new boxed IBM version - so should be OK (but who knows .

Anyway, I suspect that the switch on problem is not due to bad memory modules (but at leat I've learnt how to disable internal memory )

I will check out the FRU of the system board. I think the next step is probably to dismantle the 600E and check out internal connections. I am sending this email on the 600E so it works OK except for the occasional hang which could be just due to XP needing updating. When it does hang once operational, the 600E always seems to switch on either on the first go or within a few attempts - which perhaps suggests a dry joint/poor connection problem?

If you can get hold of a copy of the 'Ubuntu' OS CD, it has Memtest built into it as an option.

I have now dismantled my 600E and reseated most of the boards. The major thing I found was that the CPU board multi pin connector had one side of the rim cracked off. I think there was probably a tab on the rim which enabled the pin matrix to lock in place to the system board. Some of the pins were also bent. So at the moment , the pins are being held by the CPU board screws. The pin arrangements looks very very delicate. I'm also struggling to see how the connection is actually made- there is no pin/hole arrangement - it looks like pins resting against two splayed out pins. Anyway , I did my best to straighten out the pins.

When I put the 600E back together ,I was still getting the boot many times problem and hanging in XP. Originally , if I left the 600E to warm up , it booted easier. However , I have left the keyboard loose so that I can lift it - if I press down on the CPU board , I can get it to boot from cold. It also does not seem to be hanging so frequently - its been running now for 12 hours and playing CD's OK. I'm still not sure whether I can boot from cold but I think the hanging in XP problem was probably due to poor pin connection from the CPU to the System board. I need to do more experimenting - but the boot problem I think is definately thermal - so its a poor connection or a dry joint somewhere.

Serial port - for some reason Device Manager/TP Config Utility will not enable the serial port using XP with the 600E. Eventually , I found out that you have to use PS2.exe in DOS to switch off the IR port and switch on the serial port. The commands are C:\ PS2 IR DISABLE and C:\ PS2 SERA ENABLE and then reboot. This eventually worked (after lots of hanging) and the serial port is now enabled.

Removing top of keys - in an attempt to check for thermal problems , I managed to melt the number one and number two keys with a hair dryer - I never thought a hair dryer could get that hot. The edge of the keys has melted so that I cannot make proper contact when I press the key. What I need to do is remove the key and file down the melted plastic. Is there a trick to removing the key or do I just pull it up?

Thanks