TP 365XD Hard drive questions

[emeu1]

Hello,

does anybody know what the EXACT maximum HDD is that will work in a TP365XD with the last version (V1.10) of the BIOS installed?

I read on the forum here it is "about 8Gb". With that knowledge I tried an IDE to CF adapter with a 8Gb CF card. That doesn't work. The 365XD hangs after POST. Even if I ghost the current HD (6,0Gb IBM TravelStar) to the 8Gb CF first in my TP A31 and then install it in the 365XD.

The 365XD also hangs after POST if I install a 30Gb IBM TravelStar HD (I configured the 30GB HD to report to the BIOS it has only 8Gb capacity). I also tested this with "report 7Gb" and "report 6Gb" capacity configured but the 365XD still hangs after POST.

Or is there, apart from size, another limit? Does it only accept HD's which have a specific "signature"?

Kind regards,

Erik Meussen
365XD P120Mhz 72Mb 6GB
A31 PM1,6GHz 1Gb 60Gb
T40 PM1,3Ghz 1Gb 30Gb

[whizkid]

I can't speak to this exact machine, but many early 'pads are quirky about partitions in that the drives should be partitioned in the machine in which they will be used.

Also, some OSes (like DOS and maybe the Win9x boot loaders) will hang if the partitions are not to its liking. I had an old PPro machine that had a bug in the BIOS that reported large drives as having 256 heads instead of 255. If there was any DOS partition at all on the drive, DOS would not boot because it could only handle 255 heads. Perhaps something similar is happening in the 365XD.

I can tell you that I've had a 12GB drive working in my 750P, which is older (33MHz 486), after bending the master/slave pin on the drive, but the OS loader had to reside on the first 8GB.

HTH

[emeu1]

Thanks. Maybe that (partitioning not done in the machine itself) is a reason for it not working. I partitioned the IDE/CF adapter in my A31 under WinXP und "ghosted" the image from the original HD back (all done in the A31).

I will clear the IDE/CF adapter completely and see what happens if I install it in the 365XD then. If it will then boot from floppy (W98SE start diskette) I will try partitioning it and then restore the image.

Thanks again for the tip.

Kind regards,

Erik Meussen

[leoblob]

I am running a 6.0 GB (6.4 billion byte) hard drive in mine with no problems. Since a common BIOS limitation on earlier machines appears at 8.4 GB, I might assume that is the max without disk management ("overlay") software.

Somehow, I don't think a CF card would work, although I can't give you a reason other than my intuition.

I think the easiest and best solution is to simply run disk management software such as WD's data lifeguard tools or Maxtor's MaxBlast. I know the WD software is available for free download. I've used these tools with no problems, and they virtually eliminate hard drive size issues, regardless of whether they are due to BIOS or OS limitations.

[emeu1]

Well, I spend yesterday evening on it. The results so far.

I still cannot get the 8Gb CF to be recognized by the TP365XD.
Even after I deleted all partitions (to do that, I installed the IDE/CF as a second hard disk, using an Ultrabay 2000 HD adapter, in my A31).

The 8Gb CF reports a capacity of 7736Mb, also well below the 8Gb limit so I don't think, size is the problem.

The IDE adapter works in the A31, so I don't think it is broken. To be sure it is not broken, I plugged a 32Mb CF card in it, installed it in the TP365XD and booted DOS 5.0 from a diskette. This worked without a problem. I could install MS-DOS 5.0 without any problems and the TP365XD booted without any problem from the IDE/CF after the installation of MS-DOS 5.0. So I can exclude the IDE/CF is faulty.

I then re-installed the IDE/CF adapter with the 8Gb card in my A31 using the Ultrabay 2000 HD adapter. I temporarily removed the first HD from the A31 and installed a floppy drive in the A31. Booted Win98 from a floppy and started FDISK.

Win98 recognized the IDE/CF 8Gb as a 7736Mb hard disk and I was able to partition it. I created a primary partition of 50% ot the total size and made it active.

Then I reinstalled the IDE/CF 8Gb adapter in the TP365XD and tried to boot from the same Win98 startup diskette as used on the A31 to partition the IDE/CF 8Gb. Unfortunately, the TP365XD still hangs after POST. That means, memory test is done and the amount displayed, a short beep sounds, diskette is accessed (diskette drive light turns on and heads move) and then the TP 'freezes'). Diskette drive light stays on, diskette keeps spinning CAPS LOCK and NUM LOCK lights do not turn on or off after pressing CAPS / NUM LOCK.

I will try the overlay technique. However, I've never done that before. Has anybody a link to a website with an explanation how this works and/or were I can find freeware overlay software?

The other possible solution I have been thinking about is the following. Install the current HD (6,0GB) from the TP365XD in the Ultrabay 2000 2nd HDD adapter in my A31. Boot Linux on the A31 (I have Linux and Win XP installed). Make an exact copy from the
hard disk (usimg the'Linux 'dd''command). Shut down the A31. Replace the hard disk for the IDE /CF 8Gb one and copy the data back again using the 'dd' command. Any idea's of that has a chance of succes?

Kind regards,

Erik Meussen

[whizkid]

If it were me, I would remove all partitions from the CF, put it in the 365XD and boot the Win98 floppy once again. If that works, then the fdisk on that machine may make a partition that the system can use. That should be a quick test, and I'd bet a dollar that it would work.

If that still fails, you may have to use a 4GB CF card.

[whizkid]

As for copying the hard drive, that would work, but you'd be left with a 6GB partition.

Since you can boot Linux, you can see how the A31 sees the drive geometry. I'd also try Ranish Partition Manager in both machines to see how the drive geometry looks to both. I suspect they will be different so that you will have to partition the drive in the 365XD.

[leoblob]

Overlay software: http://support.wdc.com/download/index.asp?swid=1

Scroll down the page a bit to find the download button.

Not exactly sure how this works. I think I could guess, but since I'm likely wrong anyway, why bother?

Again, it's pretty painless. It will examine your BIOS, ask which OS, and will do its thing from there.

[Timoti]

I use the first 8GB part of a 12GB Travelstar HDD in my 365X. Only tricky part was to install the bootloader in the MBR, not on the first partition.

As i recall, the BIOS setup has a HDD test feature. Maybe you should try it with the 8gig CF card, if you can get there without the freeze in the POST.

[emeu1]

Hello,

first of all, thanks for all the hints and answers. I will try the overlay software. Testing the CF card via the HDD test facility in the BIOS is also a good tip!

Yesterday evening, I copied the entire hard disk to a file under Linux using the 'dd' command. I installed the CF card and wanted to 'dd' the file back. However, before doing so, I thought it would be worth writing down 'how the A31 under Linux' sees the 8Gb CF. So I started 'cfdisk' and found out that the drive geometry was:

240 heads
63 sectors per track
1048 cilinders

'cfdisk' warned me that more than 1023 cilinders would possibly not work on older hardware. So I changed the drive geometry to:

247 heads
63 sectors per track
1018 cilinders

(I assumed the number of heads could be 255 max.)
I let cfdisk write this geometry to the CF card and this apparently worked as I did get no error message. However, as I was curious if this could be done so easily, I immediately started 'cfdisk' again and found out that 'cfdisk' now reported:

255 heads
63 sectors per track
986 cilinders

Apparently the CF card had changed the settings! After a bit of experimenting with other number of heads/cilinders settings, I found out that the CF always chose one of two settings. Either 255/986 or 240/1048 (and number of sectors always 63).

So now I think THIS CF card will never work in the 365XD as I 'm pretty sure the BIOS of the 365XD has a problem with more than 1023 cilinders and presumably also with more then 240 heads.
I don't know if all CF cards can only 'switch' between two 'fixed' geometries or if it depends on the make/model of the CF card.

Anyway, getting THIS CF card directly recognized by the BIOS will never work as the CF will allways report a geometry the BIOS cannot handle.

I will try the trick with the overlay software and see what happens if I do the BIOS HDD test. I will keep you informed.

[thinkpad adrian]

all cf cards are not created alike. some are "removable drives"
some are "fixed drives" and some are recogignized as both.
some support ata speeds and settings (DMA mode) and some are
PIO mode only (PIO mode is much slower, and cpu intensive,
but is recignized by most hard drive controlers.) the cf adapter
you got could also be the problem. some of the cheap ones only
have jumpers for master/slave, while the more expensive ones have 3 setting (master, slave, only disk present)
remember, the cf/ide card adapters are only a MECHANICAL interface, thier are no electronics on them. they only connect the cf card to the ide bus. if the cf card you have wont support the
functions, its the cf cards fault (each pin on the cf card simulates a function of a ide hard drive, weather mounted as "removable", "fixed", "DMA", or "PIO". i would suggest
getting another brand of cf card, sandisk would be my first choice,
(they invented the cf card, and all thier cards adhere to ALL the cf card standards). also, try to get the fastest card you can afford.
4 gig cards are very reasonably priced now. and
get another cf adapter, perhaps a double cf card adapter. try to load
the operating systim on the sandisk card, if it works, you can try adding the second cf card as a slave. i put a 8 gig A-DATA cf card in my 240x, and it worked. the card was thier "speedy" model,
(but was really not very speedy, at 133x, and PIO mode only,
about equivilent to a ata 15 hard drive) the only good thing about it was it only cost me $50. i loaded xp on it, using the ntfs file systim. it works, but very slow because of the slow read/write speeds. as for using a disk over-lay program, you will have to buy one from on-trak, the free ones supplied by maxtor, sea gate, or W.D. will only work on thier own hard drives.
the utility to zero out the drive will work though. i think the problem you are having is the cf card is reporting its drive settings
that are incompatible with your lap top. another cf card that is smaller, or a different brand will probibly work. check out the
cf card manafacturers web sites, they have a welth of information
and specs. when you install your new card, make shure to zero
it out befor use, and format/partition it in the machine you intend to use it in. good luck, adrian

[emeu1]

Hello Adrian,

you confirm what I already thought: the CF card is the problem.
I bought the cheapest, speediest (280x) 8Gb CF card I could find on eBay because I just wanted to try if it would speed up my 365XD. And it would add another 2Gb of disk space (I now have a 6Gb disk installed).
And, if it wouldn't work, I could still use it as a removable medium (I have a PCMCIA CF card adapater installed in the 365XD) to easily transfer data between the 365XD and my other computers.
Furthermore, it would also mean the battery will last longer.

Yesterday and today I didn't find the time to download and test the overlay software and do the BIOS HDD test. I hope I find time for that on Sunday.

I will keep you informed.

[emeu1]

Hello,

I found time to do the HDD test that is build into the BIOS of the 365XD. The test runs without problems and returns 'OK'.

I have also done some testing with overlay software. However, I cannot get this to work as the 365XD 'hangs' right after the POST and right after the first hard disk and floppy drive access. I.e. the BIOS hangs BEFORE it is boots from the hard disk or floppy. Therefor, overlay software will not work as it must be read from the floppy drive or hard disk first.

I think there is no other option then looking for another make 8Gb CF card and see if that one will work.

Thanks for all the responses and 'thinking with me'.

[whizkid]

If at all possible (like putting the device in another machine), I would zero the MBR of the flash device, then try booting the overlay with the device installed in the 365XD.

[thinkpad adrian]

yes, if you partition'd and formated the drive in another machine,
i woud put it back in that machine and zero it out using a disk
utility program (maxi-blast) after its totally clear, put it back in your laptop, and try the 98 boot disk. if it boots, only partition and format the first 2.1 gigs of the drive. if that works, keep working up to 8 gigs. i have found that most of the older thinkpads
(and especially my 380z) had a problem in that they can only regignize a maxium of 8 gigs for the boot partition. if you make it any larger, it wont work. you can recover the un-used hard drive
after a operating sys is installed, creating an adtitonal partition.
(this even applies to dual boot setups, BOTH combined operating systims can not occupy more than 8 gigs total.)
adrian

[emeu1]

Hello,

well, yesterday evening I finally found time to do one more test to see if I could get the CF card to work in my 365XD.
As suggested, I installed the CF Card as a second drive in my A31 and, completely wiped it. This included the "crucial" first sectors of the "hard disk" (i.e. "cyl. 0", "head 0", "sector 0" etc.)

I reinstalled in my 365XD but, no change. POST goes fine, then a 'beep' (as allways indicating POST succesfull), then the floppy drive light turns on and, for a very short moment the hard disk access light flashes, the floppy drive starts spinning, keeps spinning and the 365XD hangs. CAPS LOCK / NUM LOCK lights do not turn on/off either when I press the keys.

I did another test with the old 30Gb HDD (IBM TravelStar) that was originally installed in my A31. Using MHDD (disk management software), I reconfigured the drive to report it has 8Gb capacity (i.e. 255 heads x 63 sectors x 1023 cylinders).
After reconfiguring the HDD this way, I verified that it actually reported a capacity of 8Gb no by using other disk management software (from IBM/Hitachi) and yes, it reported the drive as being an 8Gb drive.
Installed it in my 365XD and . . . again same symptom. 365XD runs POST succesfull, beep, floppy drive light comes on, HDD light flashes for a short moment, floppy starts spinning, keeps spinning, 365XD hangs.

I think this CF card will definitively not work. That the 30Gb HDD doesn't work is a pitty. I would really like to have the last 2Gb extra (now have a 6,0Gb drive) installed as I have Win98 and SUSE Linux and on it. Getting a 8,0Gb drive would give me 33% more diskcapacity for both operatings systems.

Is there any 365XD owner who has succesfully installed a HDD with greater capacity than 6,0 GB in his 365XD? Then I would appreciate if he/she could tell me which make/model drive he/she has installed.

[thinkpad adrian]

the boot overlays i have used in the past didnt just tell the bios that the drive is smaller than it really is, (the "capacity limt" jumper on older maxtors did that) what it did was give bios a order to
ignore the settings on the hard disk, and give new parametors
that allow LBA mode on a bios that is not set up for it. a computer will usually boot using a maxi-blast floppy, even if it wont boot with the windows 98 start up disk. i dont know why your machine hangs on boot, but usually it is caused by a hard drive that is not supported, either because of excessive
capacity, or requiring lba support. i would try a smaller cf card
(you can get 4 gig cards of as little as $25.00) or a different brand.
my card was a "a-data" but only supported PIO mode and not
ATA mode. if you can get the smaller cf card to work, you can allways get a dual cf adapter, and make your large cf card a slave
on the same ide channel. most comliant cf cards duplicate all the functions
of a hard drive. sorry yours wont work. adrian