Advice Needed on ThinkPad 600; Yes I've Read the Tweaks.

[paulmo]

600 model, PII 300 mhz, 64 mb ram,, replaced the memory CMOS battery and running Debian Linux with a light weight LXDE desktop environment, based on Gnome. I've also got a Ethernet adapter for DSL. My use is Internet including Java and Flash-rich sites (finance apps, Youtube, etc.).

The performance at this time is dismal: CPU maxes out and freezes Iceweasel browser (Mozilla/FF) regularly. Youtube crashes the browser. CPU is in 75-100% range for any task, including terminal commands. If I'm very patient, text web pages render most of the time. The Ethernet adapter is working properly and the connection is good, so the laptop is where the problem lies.

Is the slowness/freezing processor or RAM related. Or both?

Upgrading the processor is not something I'll get into. I would upgrade the ram though, if performance were worth it.

My main laptop is a T42, also running Debian and running well. I need a reliable back up. Should I invest in RAM for the 600 (2, 128 mb pc66 modules for $30) or score a PIII, 800 mhz Thinkpad for $75 on ebay? If so, what models should I look at? I need to run cool. Is the A series (21, 30) good? And if I got one of those without a HD, could I put my 600's HD in it?

Thanks in advance for suggestions.

[rkawakami]

Welcome to thinkpads.com!

I don't have much experience with Linux but I'd say your main problem is trying to run an OS on only 64MB of memory. If we were talking about Windows (98 or 2000), then I'd say you should have the maximum amount of memory you can stuff into the 600 (416MB or 544MB, depending upon the model). Your system, as currently configured, is probably too underpowered for Flash.

If you are patient, 256MB "low density" modules can be found for under $20 each. While this type of module can also be used in A2x and T20-T22 systems, if you are considering an A3x or T23, then those both require different (and incompatible with each other) memory.

ref: http://cgi.ebay.com/180576476374 (Micron MT16LSDF3264 for under $15)

I've been using an A31p at home (temporarily replacing my usual T23) and I find it runs pretty cool. It's generally powered up 24/7 and as I basically use it for web browsing, it's not stressed all that much. It uses DDR (PC2100/PC2700) memory and you could use the HD from the 600, but it might need a reinstall of the OS. The drive will physically and electrically fit but due to the differences in the hardware, may need the proper drivers.

A T22 can have up to a 1Ghz PIII and be populated with up to 512MB of PC100/PC133 "low density" SDRAM. The T23 goes to 1.2Ghz and 1GB of memory but it needs PC133 SDR memory. My T23s get fairly warm but they are built-in wireless versions so that could explain the excess heat.

[paulmo]

Ray, thanks for the input, especially your experience with A and lower T series.

The IBM specs say RAM is PC66, 288 mb max for the 600 (not 600e, etc.). I've read elsewhere that PC100 and 133 don't work in the 600.

Thanks in advance for clarification. I would like to get more RAM if it would work. Otherwise, 288 mb would certainly be an improvement.

[ThinkRob]

Is the slowness/freezing processor or RAM related. Or both?

Both, but RAM is the worse offender. With only 64 MB total, you're going to be hitting swap pretty much right away -- and given how slow the disk is, that's going to hurt performance tremendously. You won't be able to avoid swapping, even if you max out the RAM, but you can at least upgrade it enough to stop it from thrashing.

The CPU speed is going to be a noticeable bottleneck, but not that much of one. I'd recommend you:

1) Avoid Flash. It's buggy, slow even on new machines, and constantly a source of security problems. My advice is to go without.

2) Use NoScript and whitelist only sites that you trust. The benefit of this is that your browser will spend far, *far* less time executing scripts (and as a result will cause far less CPU utilization.)

3) Use AdBlock Plus. You should be doing this anyways for obvious reasons -- but the less-than-obvious benefit is that it will substantially reduce the amount of content that your browser has to load and render, which in turn will make your browsing much more pleasant.

[paulmo]

Right, thanks. Ray, are you around to offer advice to my questions about the PC66/100/133 RAM? Thanks!

[rkawakami]

PC100 or PC133 should work in the 600 but I would only use modules that are "CL2" (CAS latency 2 cycles). My recollection is that the older 600 series systems need that speed specification. Also, your 600 is probably limited to a total of 416MB of memory. The way this works out is 32MB on-board (soldered in), 128MB in the "front" slot and 256MB in the "back" slot.

ref: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=51580

[paulmo]

Thanks Ray for that explanation.

[ozzymud]

ThinkPadder is right on the money about Flash...

Flash 10 which is now commonplace has (by Adobe at least) the minimums of:

Processor: 2.33GHz (this is for like the newest flash games, basic flash stuff is much lower in reality)
Ram: 128MB (I personally believe this is THE minimum for any "modern" use of a system... 512MB is much better)
Video Ram: 128MB (again for modern flash gaming, not needed for basic flash like videos or basic flash games)

So not only is your 64MB of ram not enough, the processor just aint upto speed for full blown Flash. For youtube you can get greasemonkey with Youtube Enhancer (http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/33042), this will let you watch youtube in 320x240 which is much less processor intensive. You can also set the option to load pages with the video paused. If this is still too resourse intensive, the script also allows you to download the movie as an mpeg, then you can use mpc, vlc, mplayer or whatever to play the saved video (320x240 is on par with movies from that era of computers)

For the browser... try using an older Firefox, i regularly use 2.0.0.20 on my P166 760's and while "running" is a bit of an exaggeration, it "jogs" along quite reasonably. (WITH of course Adblock Plus and NoScript as noted above).

You just gotta think of what was "new" when this PC was mainstream... max out the memory and remember, newer on software usually means more resource intensive, just gotta opt for lighter apps or sometimes older versions. As far as security... NoScript and Adblock help, you just gotta use common sense as to where you browse and what you save to your hard drive. Don't load an always on antvirus app, instead opt for something that is on demand like ClamAV, or use a service like jotti.org to scan individual files you may be worried about.


P.S. by basic flash games... i mean like these i set up for my 5yo... http://conradshome.com/flashgames/

[paulmo]

ozzy, thanks for the observations, but I'm on Linux, a different world from Windows. I do need Flash and Java functionality; the install was manual (not fun) because they are proprietary and not packaged with Linux distros. However, I have put a message in with my Linux community for a Flash alternative! So thanks.

[pkiff]

Just FYI, paulmo, I don't think the difference between Windows and Linux will be the issue here. If your goal is to run Flash-rich and Java-rich online applications with this PC, you are going to find the CPU underpowered and the memory inadequate.

I had problems running flash-rich websites on my 600X with PIII 850MHz and 576MB RAM a couple years ago. Flash software has only gotten more bloated since then as far as I can tell. For Java software, it will depend on the specific implementation. Some sites should be fine, even on your current CPU.

YMMV.

Phil.

[paulmo]

Wow, I am surprised with a PIII with 800 mhz your Flash and Java apps run slow. My machine in question is not a PC but a Thinkpad 600 laptop. My desktop PC, with Celeron 1.3 ghz and 512 ram runs Flash and Java fine, as does my current T42 Thinkpad, with Pentium M processor. I put Linux on all my machines. I take your point that it might be best not to invest much in the 600, especially since I use Flash and Java, and these apps aren't getting any less bloated!

[ozzymud]

Yea, i run linux (debian) on my old hardware as well... but the horsepower is pretty much the same needed tween the 2 for flash. Adobe actually quoted higher for linux in flash 9. Java apps tend to be less needy then Flash from what i've observed...

http://www.conradshome.com/zipdecode/

That java INTENSIVE pagei mirrored loads in a little over 1 second on my desktop... but on a 760XL @ 166MHz takes about 35 seconds to load.

800 versus 1300MHz is a HUGE difference to Flash (and Java)... a lot of things that would are jerky on a PIII 800 i have work VERY nice on my Via C7 Mini-ITX which is only 1000MHz.

[paulmo]

thanks ozzy for the info. I'm shelving the 600 and won't even look at PIII. I'm really happy with the T42 and its Pentium M. I've got a couple PCs I'll use for back up.

[banyanleaf]

Because of the CPU being PIII, the heat generated and also the fan noise for 600 is lower than a P4 machine. In particular, its skin like coating on the palmrest is very very attractive to me. It is not good for Flash or Java based application, but decent for other usage. Maybe you can put it on the market so someone else could make good use of it?

[ozzymud]

Yea, these machines are AWESOME for tinkering with linux, file or other type servers, and retro DOS gaming...

Anyone remember arcades circa 1984! (link is a 320x240 mpeg, old machine friendly!)

[banyanleaf]

FYI. I have 600, 600E, and 600X. Just can't imagine getting rid of them. My 600E has PII/233 and it can take 2X128MB PC100 RAM. Plus the memory on the motherboard, the system only has 294MB. Since Linux Mint LXDE's minimal requirement is 192MB, I just switched from Ubuntu 8.04LTS to Linux Mint LXDE 9. Not very fast but very acceptable for what I do.

[ozzymud]

192MB and 233MHz... what i could do with that in linux - I do linux (Debian netinst.iso) on 104MB and 166MHz in 760XL's... base install, minimal X, and JWM (Joe's Window Manager)... With Firefox 2... it is actually pretty peppy