Thinkpads Forum

The new 30th X1 is not getting much love, but everyone bitched about the TP25 as well. Yet it has been a great daily driver for several years now, the seven-row keyboard has been awesome, but time to move on. My company bought me a Dell XPS 15, typing on it now and don't like it at all. I had wanted a fully kitted X1, but the wait at the time pushed them towards the Dell. The TP25 while based on the T470, included other perks like a 3 year warranty, why nothing of the sort with the 30th? This does seem like a half assed effort on the part of Lenovo, they could have done more yet it is still a nice machine.

With coupons etc., you can get the price way below asking.

Half-assed? Not even. It's zero-effort: let's cobble together some parts, put a sticker here, and poof! 30th Anniversary Edition Thinkpad.
At least the X61s Reserve Edition had that leather case (which unfortunately caused it to overheat despite having a low-voltage processor).

Yossarian1 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:36 pm

The new 30th X1 is not getting much love, but everyone bitched about the TP25 as well. Yet it has been a great daily driver for several years now, the seven-row keyboard has been awesome, but time to move on. My company bought me a Dell XPS 15, typing on it now and don't like it at all. I had wanted a fully kitted X1, but the wait at the time pushed them towards the Dell. The TP25 while based on the T470, included other perks like a 3 year warranty, why nothing of the sort with the 30th?

Why? Because of lack of focus on the right things. Instead of bitching about the TP25 having a 16:9 screen, or a low-power dual-core CPU, or not having a frigging VGA port in 2017, people should have focused on the one important, distinguishing feature - the 7-row keyboard, and continually engaged with Lenovo, requesting more laptops with this feature.

Then, there was at least some chance of catching enough attention of the right people, to make it either a permanent part of the portfolio, or at least, a once-in-a-while special model.

Unfortunately, while I can present a case, I do not have the skills to organize a movement, or get people to follow me. And one person cannot convince a mega-corporation's high management, except in very extreme cases.

In wondering why the 7 row didn't come back I wonder the following:
* Was T25 profitable?
* Would a new 7-row be profitable in current market-conditions?
* How much market-share do 7-row customers / classic enthusiasts even form?
* And is that market-share effectively already controlled by the small-scale production of modded classic ThinkPads and bolt-ons?

People who grew up with typewriters, and then computers/laptops, are/were used to 7-row keyboards.
Sadly, these people are literally a dying breed.
In 10/20 years from now nobody will remember typewriters or matching keyboards.

TPFanatic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:04 am

* Was T25 profitable?

If it wasn't, it is only because Lenovo sabotaged it. Whoever bought it, was willing to pay a premium over a similarly configured T470 (although it wasn't such a big premium as some claimed). Lenovo wasn't losing money per-unit, you can be sure of that. If they didn't make enough money on the model as a whole, it is only because they deliberately decided to make it a very limited production run, only offered in select locales and through a limited number of channels.

TPFanatic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:04 am

* Would a new 7-row be profitable in current market-conditions?

As much as any laptop can be profitable, perhaps more. Especially once the initial investment in designing and producing the keyboard has been done already (which happened with the TP25). When marketed as a specialty feature for a certain class of users, those users would willingly pay a reasonably premium, so each unit could be even more profitable than a base unit.

Suppose that you wanted to make an "X1 Legacy", which is an X1 Extreme but with a 7-row keyboard (like a TP25 was a T470 with a 7-row keyboard). Perhaps such a machine would cost $20 more to produce per unit. Whoever values this feature would gladly pay even a $50 premium (on a machine that costs $1500, that's not much).

TPFanatic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:04 am

* How much market-share do 7-row customers / classic enthusiasts even form?

Certainly enough to justify even a 1-2 SKUs with a 7-row (which is what TP25 was), than TopSeller SKU #275 for a T14, which only differs from SKU #274 by having the IR camera.

I don't recall any TP25 units went unsold. I also don't see them being dumped en masse on eBay (which you would expect if there was any surplus, or if they had been badly designed machines).

TPFanatic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:04 am

* And is that market-share effectively already controlled by the small-scale production of modded classic ThinkPads and bolt-ons?

Ask yourself. Given the option of getting your modern machine with a classic Thinkpad keyboard engineered, designed, delivered and supported by Lenovo, with a reasonable repair service and long-term part availability, as opposed to a Frankenpad assembled from 15 year old Thinkpads plastics cut with a dremel, a motherboard designed and built "after 5PM" in a no-name foundry, and a production line run by one guy in his basement who might suddenly get drafted - which would you prefer?

Don't get me wrong - I feel nothing but respect and awe towards the hobbyist enthusiasts who have produced these engineering marvels - T50, T70, X62, X2100, T700 and others I've forgotten. They do not meet my requirements at this point, so I have not purchased one myself (yet), but that may change in the future. And yet, I'm certain that if Lenovo suddenly decided to bring back the 7-row keyboard, it would sweep that enthusiast market in a heartbeat.

The 7-row keyboard didn't come back not because of any real obstacles. It didn't happen simply because (at least after David Hill's departure), there hasn't been anyone left among Lenovo's decision makers who cared about this, and those who did care, outside Lenovo, were not organized enough to present their case to those decision makers and convince them.

Statements I often hear along the lines of "If there had been any real demand, someone at Lenovo would have done it already" ignore the reality that the market is never 100% efficient. There are always countless opportunities beneath the surface, that are not realized until someone notices them, and then everyone feels "It's obvious; how come it hasn't been done before?" That's what enables start-ups and new ideas to (sometimes) succeed. That's what enabled the "small-scale production of modded classic ThinkPads and bolt-ons" to fill in the void left by Lenovo. It's great that they are around. I hope that at some point there will be a major corporation that notices this opportunity as well (maybe after some enthusiast lobbyists present it convincingly), and give us more options.

dr_st wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:57 am

Ask yourself. Given the option of getting your modern machine with a classic Thinkpad keyboard engineered, designed, delivered and supported by Lenovo, with a reasonable repair service and long-term part availability, as opposed to a Frankenpad assembled from 15 year old Thinkpads plastics cut with a dremel, a motherboard designed and built "after 5PM" in a no-name foundry, and a production line run by one guy in his basement who might suddenly get drafted - which would you prefer?

I was in the time, place, and buying power to order a brand new T25 when it first released. At the time I declined, and again when it was discounted. I kick myself for each since in retrospect, knowing now what I like in a laptop, T25 checks all my boxes and exceeds what my current machines manage to do. A lot of people criticized the dGPU but personally I use them.

No doubt the IBM-heritage engineering beats the shade tree hobbiest corner cutting. Mod-pads are for the dank, the folks of the subreddit and the chans... from stuff like the X61HK to the more polished products like you linked, yet still present problems like what I've spiritedly muddied into (ungluing bezel from LCD board to replace improperly engineered antennas ), and that's not even touching the tip of custom firmware woes which in my case I am at least spared....

So even if the answer is yes, there's enough of us that Lenovo should care about us, they won't because Lenovo doesn't even know us anymore....

dr_st wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:57 am

The 7-row keyboard didn't come back not because of any real obstacles. It didn't happen simply because (at least after David Hill's departure), there hasn't been anyone left among Lenovo's decision makers who cared about this, and those who did care, outside Lenovo, were not organized enough to present their case to those decision makers and convince them.

Ding ding we have a winner. The IBM era is a fading memory.

I think it all boils down to this: ThinkPads are made for corporate customers, not individual customers. If they were made for individual customers, I have no doubt a "retro" line would be a mainstay in the lineup. After all, one big trend in many industries in the past years has been "retro" and "nostalgia".

Alas, that is not the case. Nostalgia and "retro taste" are something a person can have, but not an organization. And I don't think such a product would interest Lenovo's corporate customer base in the slightest. So the chances of something like this becoming a permanent option in the portfolio are zero.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that the ThinkPad 25 was doomed to fail from the beginning, even if they had done something a little bit more exciting than just the 7 row keyboard (as David Hill stated, he wanted to do 4:3 screens). The reason for that is that while ThinkPads have a sizable fan base compared with all other laptop brands, bar MacBoooks, is that this fan-base is too splintered. There are too many converging wants and needs to satisfy this group (which is still a drop in the ocean compared with the commercial customer base) with a single model. Some want a 12 inch ThinkPad, some want a 15 inch one. Some want a modern X301, others want a W701ds. Some want the 7 row keyboard with the classic IBM layout, some want the "modern" T400s version with larger Esc/Del keys. Some want 4:3, others want 16:10. This list can be expanded to many more features. The reaction to the ThinkPad 25 probably reflects this. I think that is the reason why Lenovo didn't "do more" for the ThinkPad 25 and didn't even bother with the ThinkPad 30.

The way to bring back features is not to market them as "retro" or with special models. The argument has to be based on use cases. For example: it is possible to argue that the 7 row keyboard is more easily accessible for visually impaired people, compared with the 6 row layout. If such an argument would convince Lenovo, it wouldn't bring back the classic keyboard, but maybe some old design elements could be incorporated into modern ThinkPads, be it as an option or standard.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:48 am

The way to bring back features is not to market them as "retro" or with special models. The argument has to be based on use cases. For example: it is possible to argue that the 7 row keyboard is more easily accessible for visually impaired people, compared with the 6 row layout.

Precisely. Not exactly the argument I would use (although it is correct). My argument is that the layout is better for certain types of productivity tasks, because it is more like the desktop standard + has more buttons overall. However, I agree completely with the general mindset.

Back when it was released - I said from the very beginning: Thinkpad 25 is not a retro laptop. There is nothing 'retro' about it. It is a modern laptop with a unique feature. A feature that enough people would find useful, given the option, and virtually no one will say that the system is worse for having it. But it still not enough to get corporate customers that purchase in bulk to notice, as it does not tick any boxes that corporations currently care about.

Late reply to this thread, but like others, when I glanced at the X1 Carbon 30th Anniversary Edition, I immediately lost interest when I saw that it didn't include the 25th anniversary keyboard. And I agree with those who point out that Lenovo is driven by corporate sales, not by niche markets, or "user" demand. The "user" for Lenovo is the corporate environment. That is clear from their website and marketing, as well as when you compare the service and support they offer individual consumers vs corporate accounts.

But at the same time, I think that there are clear signs that Lenovo has been trying to make strides in the retail consumer market over the past 5 years. Just because they haven't been successful doesn't mean that they don't have any eyes on that market at all. The Legion brand for example definitely represents a line dedicated to individual retail consumers. And so does their Yoga line. And their constantly struggling Android tablet lines. Indeed, some entries in the X1 line itself bridge the gap between high-end business and high-end retail consumer desires. More so than any ThnkPads from the P/T/W era. That's why I own an X1 Extreme and several X1 Tablets.

Maybe there is not enough of a demand for a proper, non-chiclet, reasonable-key-travel, 7-row keyboard in a laptop. But the popularity of niche keyboards has been on the rise for several years. Mainly amongst gamers, but also elsewhere. Logitech has even embraced that space now with their Pro Series gaming keyboards.

As a result, while I continue to doubt that Lenovo will introduce a ThinkPad line with a proper keyboard (regardless of whether it's called a retro line or if it's targeted at gamers or writers or data entry), I haven't given up hope on that entirely. I can see several use cases that might sway Lenovo's marketing and business decision makers to consider it. I don't think it needs "practical" reasons, it needs marketing and sales reasons. The anniversary editions dip into the nostalgia pool and their success or failure for sure guides Lenovo when considering these kinds of products. But if sales of niche keyboards continue to rise then eventually some major laptop maker is going to put one back into a laptop. Probably a gaming laptop, but maybe one with cross-over appeal. And Lenovo is sitting on a keyboard history with a built-in marketing head start because of all the years of ThinkPad keyboards being repeatedly identified as having one of - if not *the* - best laptop keyboards available. So while I'm doubtful, I still haven't given up all hope.

Phil.