Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

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Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#1 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:33 pm

If you've chosen to stay away from W10 because of privacy concerns, you may want to be careful with Windows Updates these days, specifically one marked KB3075249

From Microsoft themselves:
This update introduces the Diagnostics and Telemetry tracking service to existing devices. By applying this service, you can add benefits from the latest version of Windows to systems that have not yet upgraded.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3068708
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#2 Post by jdhurst » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:37 pm

Microsoft is using this method to determine faults and errors and fix them. This never happened with Windows 8 originally and it was the lowest quality system Microsoft ever introduced.

They are using telemetry with Windows 10 and the last two builds (.351 is the latest several days ago) have become very reliable.

I doubt they are spying on you (I am sure they could care less about you and the rest of us) but they are improving quality.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#3 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:39 pm

jdhurst wrote: I doubt they are spying on you
You have your doubts and I have mine...
I am sure they could care less about you and the rest of us
My stance - shared by many others - is that while they certainly could care less I don't want them to care at all, or have access to my personal info and data. It's really that simple.
but they are improving quality.
I wouldn't know since I refuse to take part in that process.

On a completely different note, it's great to see you on the forum again Mr. Hurst even if we are in disagreement over Windows-related issues...
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#4 Post by jdhurst » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:07 pm

Telemetry give ZERO access to your data. They do not and cannot access your data. The idea that they can is nothing more than a news myth from reporters who have nothing to do with their time.

There is NO hard evidence of any kind from anywhere that Microsoft has collected private financial or other kinds of data. Hackers do this (if one fails to secure their system) but Microsoft does not.

Ubuntu collects data too, but no personal data.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#5 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:21 pm

jdhurst wrote: There is NO hard evidence of any kind from anywhere that Microsoft has collected private financial or other kinds of data.
There's just as little evidence that they don't. At least on some level. Especially from folks who forget to turn various "sharing" features off.

As I've stated before: you have your doubts and I'll keep mine.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#6 Post by hhhd1 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:43 pm

Windows 8 is a good OS, with a bad interface.
Windows 10 is a bad OS, with a bad interface.
Windows 7 interface still far better than either.
jdhurst wrote:Windows 8 originally and it was the lowest quality system Microsoft ever introduced.
Quality wise, Win8 was on par with windows 7, and still pretty good if you can handle the interface craziness.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#7 Post by brchan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:34 pm

Another reason to move to Linux. Open source code has many benefits :D.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#8 Post by jdhurst » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:36 pm

Quality wise, Win8 was on par with windows 7, and still pretty good if you can handle the interface craziness.

I used Windows 8 / 8.1 for a couple of years on a ThinkPad X230. I put a classic interface on it.

Based on Reliability History, I have the following quality ratings.

Windows 7 > 90%
Windows 8 < 10%
Windows 8.1 20% Windows 8.1 was a different OS to Windows 8.
Windows 10 Build 10240 50%
Windows 10 Current 1607 Build 14393.351 about 80% and getting better.

With respect to Interfaces and usability, my Windows 10 machine looks just like my Windows 8 / 8.1 machines, looks just like my Windows 7 machines, look just like my Vista machine, looks just like my Windows XP machine, looks must like my Windows 2000 machine, looks just like my Windows NT 4 machine, looks just like my Windows 98 machine and finally looks just like my Windows 95 machine.

No need to change what works well.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#9 Post by hhhd1 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:16 pm

jdhurst wrote:Based on Reliability History, I have the following quality ratings.

Windows 7 > 90%
Windows 8 < 10%
Windows 8.1 20% Windows 8.1 was a different OS to Windows 8.
Windows 10 Build 10240 50%
Windows 10 Current 1607 Build 14393.351 about 80% and getting better.
Well, on the 3 computers I use the most on daily basis, I have 2x windows 8.1, and 1x windows 7, and i am fine with the OS in all 3, in fact, the windows 7 PC is the least used of all 3.

I am curios to how you do the quality rating, because everything bad about windows 8.1, windows 10 has made it worse .. IMO.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#10 Post by Cigarguy » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:47 pm

At the end of the day whatever "rating" is down to personal preference. It's a matter of which flavour of Windows. I prefer 7 and see no need to upgrade to 8.1 or 10 after playing with 8.1 or about a year and 6 months with 10. Slowly transitioning to Linux.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#11 Post by Saucey » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:11 pm

I don't mind Windows 10 on my desktop as it is a bland gaming machine, but W10 on an Ivy Bridge Dell Inspiron 13 does show the toll on resources it uses...
Sucks that Telemetry is introduced in W7/W8 devices, no point in updating to the most recent service pack... at least for now.
Its tough to say, M$ won't give info of its EU servers to the US, yet will totally snitch out people who are in opposition of the Russian government that pirated Windows...

For me personally, I'd rather use Linux for my laptops. But for my main desktop, I've been a bit weary because WINE does have some issues with certain programs which deter me from having it as my main machine.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#12 Post by jdhurst » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:45 am

I am curios to how you do the quality rating

I use Reliability Monitor and track the number of "Stopped Working" errors over time.

On my ThinkPad X230, Windows 8 / 8.1 recorded a hardware error for the video component monthly for two years. Drivers did not help.

I upgraded to Windows 10 on this same machine and ZERO hardware errors ever after.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#13 Post by pianowizard » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:29 pm

jdhurst wrote:Microsoft is using this method to determine faults and errors and fix them.
Exactly, although some folks prefer the operating system to ask whether they want to submit the error to Microsoft. I don't mind Windows 10's diagnostic telemetry, but when a program or operating system has an error and asks me whether I want to send a notification to the manufacturer, I usually click "no" because I don't know exactly what information is being transmitted. Some folks are even more sensitive than I am, and I can see why they are concerned about what info is being sent automatically by Windows 10.
ajkula66 wrote:There's just as little evidence that they don't. At least on some level. Especially from folks who forget to turn various "sharing" features off.
Microsoft really should ship Windows 10 with all optional sharing features turned off, by default, and let users turn them on.

I don't think I have used someone else's Windows 10 computer yet, but that will happen sooner or later, and the first thing I'll do is check the privacy settings thoroughly.
jdhurst wrote:Based on Reliability History, I have the following quality ratings.
Windows 7 > 90%
Windows 8 < 10%
Windows 8.1 20% Windows 8.1 was a different OS to Windows 8.
Windows 10 Build 10240 50%
Windows 10 Current 1607 Build 14393.351 about 80% and getting better.
....I use Reliability Monitor and track the number of "Stopped Working" errors over time. On my ThinkPad X230, Windows 8 / 8.1 recorded a hardware error for the video component monthly for two years. Drivers did not help. I upgraded to Windows 10 on this same machine and ZERO hardware errors ever after.
It goes without saying that reliability depends greatly on the hardware. I used Windows 8 and 8.1 (which is essentially Windows 9) for close to two years and was very impressed by their outstanding reliability. I had them on at least four machines -- Sony Pro 13, Panasonic ToughBook CF-Y7, Panasonic Let's Note CF-Y9, and HP Pavilion x2 -- and during those two years, they froze just once, on the HP. That HP had only 2GB of RAM and a 32GB eMMC drive, and I had many programs and tabs running just before it froze, so it might actually have been a problem with the overworked hardware rather than with Windows 8.1 per se.

Windows 10 has given me a lot more stability issues than 8 or 8.1, though I agree with you that the recent builds are better than the earliest ones. I also agree that, right now, Windows 10 is nearly as stable as Windows 7, but on my computers, neither of them is as stable as 8.1, 8, Vista or 2000 was. IMO, 10 is now either as stable as or slightly more stable than XP, even though I seem to recall that you used to say XP was perfectly stable in your hands. One more thing we agree on is that, without diagnostic telemetry, Windows 10 would almost certainly be not as stable as it has become.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#14 Post by TPFanatic » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:18 am

Windows is nice when it works, but in my opinion none of them are very reliable at all. Everytime I do a Windows 7 recovery from my Lenovo discs on an otherwise flawless computer something I've never heard of before goes to hell.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#15 Post by dr_st » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:51 am

There are no reliable operating systems except DOS, which is 100% reliable because it's so primitive.

I've spent enough time with various flavors of Linux to know that they give you just as much crap as Windows, except in different ways.

I don't have enough (read, any) experience with MacOS. Users say it's reliable. Maybe it is. Apple's total control of every HW/SW/FW component does give them an advantage. Of course, if you want to stray away from their path, you're screwed.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#16 Post by jdhurst » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:14 pm

I do not have such issues. The only systems that crashed and lost files as a result were DOS and Windows 3.1. Nothing since. No data or documents lost since.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#17 Post by dr_st » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:46 am

Good for you, what can I say? :??:
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#18 Post by shawross » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:29 am

Doesn't matter what OS you use but your ISP keeps Data of what sites you visit and what you download. In Australia they can keep it up to 2 years. Your Browser and Antivirus company also tracks where you go. If you really want to stop Telemetry spying don't go on the internet.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#19 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:49 am

shawross wrote:Doesn't matter what OS you use but your ISP keeps Data of what sites you visit and what you download. In Australia they can keep it up to 2 years. Your Browser and Antivirus company also tracks where you go. If you really want to stop Telemetry spying don't go on the internet.
Huh. No.

They can track what we allow them to track.

TOR + VPN + do your own research... :twisted:
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#20 Post by hhhd1 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:58 pm

shawross wrote:Doesn't matter what OS you use but your ISP keeps Data of what sites you visit and what you download. In Australia they can keep it up to 2 years. Your Browser and Antivirus company also tracks where you go. If you really want to stop Telemetry spying don't go on the internet.
They can not track HTTPS yet.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#21 Post by jaspen-meyer » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:40 pm

hhhd1 wrote:They can not track HTTPS yet.
???

If you use firefox, type about:config into the address bar and then filter on google. Every website you visit is sent to half a dozen databases.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#22 Post by Kilkenny » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:10 am

hhhd1 wrote:
shawross wrote:Doesn't matter what OS you use but your ISP keeps Data of what sites you visit and what you download. In Australia they can keep it up to 2 years. Your Browser and Antivirus company also tracks where you go. If you really want to stop Telemetry spying don't go on the internet.
They can not track HTTPS yet.
Your ISP can do this through DNS requests.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#23 Post by hhhd1 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:01 pm

jaspen-meyer wrote:If you use firefox, type about:config into the address bar and then filter on google. Every website you visit is sent to half a dozen databases.
Kilkenny wrote:Your ISP can do this through DNS requests.
they can know the DNS name only, nothing more.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#24 Post by micrex22 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:37 pm

dr_st wrote:There are no reliable operating systems except DOS, which is 100% reliable because it's so primitive.
Haha I have a dedicated computer for DOS because there's still a lot of DOS games that I play.

Sadly I'd say you're right... I never have any issues with the system and it keeps-on running / if it was Windows 10 it would have cratered with some update by now (I used to be a bit biased with Windows 10 updates as I never ran into any problems with older hardware, but changed my mind when I started to see others with real-world problems and crashes).

The only time an issue occurred on the DOS machine was when the hard disk in the system died, and I replaced it with a 1997 WD Caviar. I have it configured for IPX/SPX, none of that TCP/IP nonsense ;)

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#25 Post by kfzhu1229 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:34 pm

micrex22 wrote:
dr_st wrote:There are no reliable operating systems except DOS, which is 100% reliable because it's so primitive.
Haha I have a dedicated computer for DOS because there's still a lot of DOS games that I play.

Sadly I'd say you're right... I never have any issues with the system and it keeps-on running / if it was Windows 10 it would have cratered with some update by now (I used to be a bit biased with Windows 10 updates as I never ran into any problems with older hardware, but changed my mind when I started to see others with real-world problems and crashes).

The only time an issue occurred on the DOS machine was when the hard disk in the system died, and I replaced it with a 1997 WD Caviar. I have it configured for IPX/SPX, none of that TCP/IP nonsense ;)
FYI the last version of Windows without bloat or unreliability is Windows 2000. It is nice and snappy from PII ThinkPad 600 to PM Dothan ThinkPad T43.
And as for data collection, I don't care at all but what I do care is it eats up my CPU power. I have disabled Windows Update service on almost all my computers because they all run on the latest OS they can work with (A30 in Windows 7, T43 in Windows 10). Windows 7 by itself on A30 and W10 on T43 are pretty good - as long as you make it stay debloated.
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#26 Post by micrex22 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:29 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:FYI the last version of Windows without bloat or unreliability is Windows 2000. It is nice and snappy from PII ThinkPad 600 to PM Dothan ThinkPad T43.
And as for data collection, I don't care at all but what I do care is it eats up my CPU power. I have disabled Windows Update service on almost all my computers because they all run on the latest OS they can work with (A30 in Windows 7, T43 in Windows 10). Windows 7 by itself on A30 and W10 on T43 are pretty good - as long as you make it stay debloated.
I think the 'Windows experience' wildly varies depending on the time of release and hardware support. W2K does have a few things about it, such as being notoriously difficult to P2V (in some cases impossible, especially if the hardware craters and you're attempting a P2V from backups), or just a lack of hardware support and requiring extensive slip streaming. If left unconfigured W2K takes a long time to load and log in as well.

98SE and 7 are still my favourites; with those two you get a good range of application support that can cover distances anything in-between can't. Windows 10 could have been fantastic if Microsoft simply didn't be stupid.

Telemetry poses a problem for those who do commercial work and don't want their proprietary data going anywhere, and can also be detrimental in terms of security.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#27 Post by MikalE » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:17 am

Short of disconnecting from the internet, what can a user do to keep Microsoft out of your computer's files and folders if you are using Windows 10? I know about all of the obvious things like not using Cortana, locking down your router from Windows and such, but what else is there to keep them out of your files???

I have Windows 10 on one of my T510's that I bought as a learning tool to help people that come to my shop asking for help with either their computer or the OS. That is all that system is used for.

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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#28 Post by kfzhu1229 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:51 am

Also disable Windows Update and Telemetry and choose not to participate in anything under the settings menu
It's not like Microsoft would care about your files unless the FBI forces them to. Even if you have illegal downloads or adult stuff they simply wouldn't care...
Didn't icloud do the same thing but worse?
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#29 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

kfzhu1229 wrote: Even if you have illegal downloads or adult stuff they simply wouldn't care...
And you know this...how?
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Re: Telemetry (spying) now introduced in W7 and W8.x through WU

#30 Post by kfzhu1229 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:20 am

I don't think FBI prefers tracking in that method. They track through the internet providers which is much cheaper... Plus every activity in a machine like T43 is very noticeable. Whenever Windows try to upload and stuff all the sudden hard drive starts to crunch like crazy, fan 3 kicks in and you will see the Wireless light blinking and most of the time task manager will show. If you set the minimum CPU speed into 100% in power options you can also hear the all the sudden the high pitch sound goes away if the CPU usage is high and returns if idling in maximum speed
And as long as the privacy concern is not as big as the North Korean "Red Star" Linux OS it is fine
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Flexview UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10

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