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EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

T430 and later, plus T530 and later series specific matters only
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titianmom
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EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#1 Post by titianmom » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:17 pm

Hello and help,

I think I just hosed my T530. I was in the process of setting up dual-booting into Linux.

It is running Windows 7. I interrupted the boot to change UEFI to Disable and Secure Boot to Disable. (I think I should have left UEFI alone.)

Now I can't boot at all. The Device to BOOT FROM window has the left pointer on PCI LAN, but DVD Drive is highlighted! Anyway, it just keeps going into the LENOVO screen with a tiny "Hit enter to interupt", Then it pops into that DEVICE TO BOOT FROM screen again and keeps looping.

I went back into the Setup window and put the UEFI back to Enable, SECURE BOOT to Enable, and of course removed the DVD from the drive, but it doesn't help.

Keeps going into the DEVICE TO BOOT FROM window with the werid pointer on PCI LAN but DVD drive highlighted.

Would going into Security and setting things back to setup mode help? What should I do!?

Kim

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Re: EMERGENCY! Fixed, but have some questions for Experts

#2 Post by titianmom » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:36 pm

Hi all,

I managed to get it back into Windows by setting the EFI and Secure Boot back to what it was originally AND going into STARTUP and setting EFI to Legacy.

Obviously I have to read up on Lenovo's BIOS/SETUP windows and how they relate to one another before I pursue the Linux loading.

I've always used Linux on old Thinkpads; this new EFI and Secure Boot is driving me crazy.

I had read somewhere that I only needed to disable EFI and Secure Boot, then boot off the DVD and away I go. Not so, apparently.

I am reading the manual on my machine again, however, if someone has experience using Linux on their newer Thinkpads, please advice me on this.

Pls PM me if you can. Thanks in advance! Kim

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Re: EMERGENCY! Fixed, but have some questions for Experts

#3 Post by EAkamai » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:10 am

titianmom wrote:Hi all, Obviously I have to read up on Lenovo's BIOS/SETUP windows and how they relate to one another before I pursue the Linux loading.
Aloha!
If you can find out more about this it would be appreciated. We plan to dual boot Linux as well.
Never had a problem with T61 - but we are looking to get a new model (T530).

Thanks
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Re: EMERGENCY! Fixed, but have some questions for Experts

#4 Post by Sudevan » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:00 am

EAkamai wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:10 am
titianmom wrote:Hi all, Obviously I have to read up on Lenovo's BIOS/SETUP windows and how they relate to one another before I pursue the Linux loading.
Aloha!
If you can find out more about this it would be appreciated. We plan to dual boot Linux as well.
Never had a problem with T61 - but we are looking to get a new model (T530).

Thanks
I realize this is an old thread, but, EAkamai, did you succeed in setting up your T530 as a dual-boot system with Linux and Windows? What procedure did you use I just acquired a T530 with Win 10 and want to set up a dual-boot system with Linux Mint 19. In my machine UEFI is enabled with the Win 10 install that came with it, but Secure Boot is disabled. Thanks.
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#5 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:13 am

Eakamai was last seen on the Forum in July 2017.
But this might help: https://itsfoss.com/guide-install-linux ... t-windows/
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#6 Post by Sudevan » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:04 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:13 am
Eakamai was last seen on the Forum in July 2017.
But this might help: https://itsfoss.com/guide-install-linux ... t-windows/
Thank you, RBS! I read through the instructions and will look at the video. But when I checked out the comments, many people have said they have had trouble with dual boots on a UEFI-enabled machine which has Win 10 installed under the UEFI firmware. And the author hasn't responded to some of these concerns. This was some time ago, with Mint 16. Maybe things will be easier with Mint 19. We'll give it a shot and see what happens. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#7 Post by UMPC2024 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 pm

Would this topic about UEFI on T430 help your situation?

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=107675&hilit=john1in2

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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#8 Post by Sudevan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:42 am

UMPC2024 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 pm
Would this topic about UEFI on T430 help your situation?

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=107675&hilit=john1in2
Thank you. I am not entirely sure. The basic message I have found from multiple postings and writeups is that UEFI should be left Enabled since that was how Win 10 was installed on the machine. Then one also disables Secure Boot (which was the way my T530 came to me), According to the link Dominic (RBS) sent me, and according to a detailed description in the Linux Mint Forums (see below), you have to shrink the partition in Windows first, before starting up the Linux installation, then choose the Something Else option during the Linux Installation and set up root, mount point, and swap. Here is the Linux Mint Forums instructions, dated 2014:

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=163126

Perhaps the only way to find out is to try! I want to do what I can to prevent the computer from becoming unusable in all of this.

This entire mess was created deliberately by Microsoft after UEFI came out, because they persuaded manufacturers to make the motherboard so that all OSs other than Windows would be refused by the UEFI firmware. They said it was for security so hackers would not install malware OSs. Secure Boot enabling is putting a lock on the system. The real reason, I suspect, is that they wanted to prevent the practice of using Linux (or other OSs) as an alternative OS -- a dastardly, monopolistic thing to do! In the end, after a slanging match between MS and Linux folks, MS agreed to provide digital signatures for Linux and perhaps other OSs. The question is whether all that happened before or after my T530 was manufactured -- I am hoping it happened before, which would mean my machine might be exempt from the problem.

When my current Win 7 / Dell XPS desktop of 2014 vintage is retired ( a few years hence ), I think I will commission a very knowledgeable local friend, and pay him, to build a machine for me, so that I can set it up the way I want, preferably just with Linux. I will work with him so that I learn how the build is done. Then I will keep my current Win 7 desktop as a system for using MS Office, mainly so I can use MS Word for my books, MS PowerPoint for my talks and lectures. And watching Youtube and movies because I have a lovely 24" screen. MS Office is not entirely compatible with Libre Office, and converting a 350 page novel from one system to another is a bloody pain! (I did it once, from WordStar to Word, I know it dates me seriously!)

Thanks for your advice, my friend.

Sudevan
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#9 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:46 am

I would suggest the following:
- remove the main drive with W10
- insert another drive and install Linux on it
- replace the DVD drive with an Ultrabay caddy for a 2nd HDD/SSD, such as this
- choose which OS you use most, put that drive in your main drivebay
- put the other OS drive in the Ultrabay caddy
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot

Alternatively, you could install an M.2 SATA drive in the WWAN-slot instead.
- remove the drive with W10
- insert the M.2 drive and install Linux on it
- put the W10 drive back in
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#10 Post by Sudevan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:56 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:46 am
I would suggest the following:
- remove the main drive with W10
- insert another drive and install Linux on it
- replace the DVD drive with an Ultrabay caddy for a 2nd HDD/SSD, such as this
- choose which OS you use most, put that drive in your main drivebay
- put the other OS drive in the Ultrabay caddy
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot

Alternatively, you could install an M.2 SATA drive in the WWAN-slot instead.
- remove the drive with W10
- insert the M.2 drive and install Linux on it
- put the W10 drive back in
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot
Thanks, I will keep these two alternatives in mind (order that caddy first).
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#11 Post by Sudevan » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:35 pm

Sudevan wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:56 am
RealBlackStuff wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:46 am
I would suggest the following:
- remove the main drive with W10
- insert another drive and install Linux on it
- replace the DVD drive with an Ultrabay caddy for a 2nd HDD/SSD, such as this
- choose which OS you use most, put that drive in your main drivebay
- put the other OS drive in the Ultrabay caddy
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot

Alternatively, you could install an M.2 SATA drive in the WWAN-slot instead.
- remove the drive with W10
- insert the M.2 drive and install Linux on it
- put the W10 drive back in
When you now start the laptop, press F12 immediately and select from which drive/OS you want to boot
Thanks, I will keep these two alternatives in mind (order that caddy first).
Update and Failure to get to the Bootloader:

My friend and I did manage, after some initial issues, to get the USB stick with Linux Mint 19 to work this afternoon, and we installed the OS. We made sure UEFI was left enabled, and Secure Boot disabled. The installer did not see Win 10 when the time came to select a procedure for installation, so we had to go for the Something Else option and adjust the partition, set up root, swap etc. It installed without problems. But on restart, we could not get the Grub bootloader to come up with the usual choices of OS. It simply went to Windows 10. We tried reinstalling a couple more times, with some changes in partition sizing, but with the same results. We could see the GRUB bootloader being installed as the installation proceeded, but after installation and restart, it does not come up. So Linux Mint 19 is on the machine somewhere, but we cannot access it! If we hit Enter on the splash screen and then F12 to get to some of the options, there is no indication of a GRUB screen anywhere.

I am not hugely committed to having a dual-boot system on this machine. I have dozens of earlier Thinkpads (T series, R and A series) that are dual-boot systems with Windows (XP and 7) and Linux (mostly Mint but others as well), and I rarely use Windows on these machines, just the Linux OS. It would be nice to find a solution to the invisible Bootloader problem purely as a solution to a puzzle, but at this point, I am tempted to leave it as Win 10, or simply wipe the SSD and install Linux Mint by itself. I am not sure why the changeover from BIOS to UEFI has created so many problems with dual booting. I think it all originates from that business of making computers work only with Microsoft's OS, treating all other OSs as malware. That practice was abandoned, but the T530 may be one of the machines that got caught in the transition. Perhaps more recent machines may not have this problem.

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions, especially if you know of a way to get to that darn elusive GRUB screen!

Sudevan
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#12 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:02 am

T530 (and others like it) have options for 3 drives:
- 2.5" in main drivebay
- Ultrabay-caddy + 2.5" instead of DVD-drive
- M.2 drive in WWAN-slot.

Suggestion 1:
get a small (128GB is more than enough) M.2 mSATA drive for WWAN-slot, install W10 on it (while main-drive has been removed).
Remove mSATA, insert main-drive and install Mint on it.
Reinsert mSATA.
In BIOS/Startup/Boot set 1. ATA HDD0 (Linux) and 2. whichever has W10
When you now boot, it automatically goes to Linux.
On the rare occasion you want W10, immediately press F12 at boot and select the W10 drive.

Suggestion 2:
do as in the above, but instead of mSATA use the Ultrabay-caddy with a HDD/SSD.
If that drive is big enough, next to W10, install another partition for storage, which should also be accessible from Linux.
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#13 Post by Sudevan » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:24 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:02 am
T530 (and others like it) have options for 3 drives:
- 2.5" in main drivebay
- Ultrabay-caddy + 2.5" instead of DVD-drive
- M.2 drive in WWAN-slot.

Suggestion 1:
get a small (128GB is more than enough) M.2 mSATA drive for WWAN-slot, install W10 on it (while main-drive has been removed).
Remove mSATA, insert main-drive and install Mint on it.
Reinsert mSATA.
In BIOS/Startup/Boot set 1. ATA HDD0 (Linux) and 2. whichever has W10
When you now boot, it automatically goes to Linux.
On the rare occasion you want W10, immediately press F12 at boot and select the W10 drive.

Suggestion 2:
do as in the above, but instead of mSATA use the Ultrabay-caddy with a HDD/SSD.
If that drive is big enough, next to W10, install another partition for storage, which should also be accessible from Linux.
Thanks, RBS. These are similar to the suggestions you made earlier. In your earlier email, you suggested a way in which I could remove the current main drive with Win 10, insert another drive and install Linux Mint on it, then put back both these drives. I take it those suggestions will still work because I can keep the drive with the current installation of Win 10 on it, rather than reinstall it on a new mSATA drive. Now, will I have to go back and delete the Linux Mint I already installed on the current main drive (the one I can't seem to find the GRUB for) or can I simply leave it there?
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#14 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:19 am

Both my posts boil down to basically the same.

If both Windows and Linux were installed on separate drives, and they were both the ONLY drive in that machine at that install time, then F12 at boot should give you the choice when BOTH are in at the same time.
Where you want which drive is up to you.
So please tell what OS you have on what type drive and in which machine those drives were originally installed.
Were they drive C: resp. sda?
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#15 Post by Sudevan » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:48 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:19 am
Both my posts boil down to basically the same.

If both Windows and Linux were installed on separate drives, and they were both the ONLY drive in that machine at that install time, then F12 at boot should give you the choice when BOTH are in at the same time.
Where you want which drive is up to you.
So please tell what OS you have on what type drive and in which machine those drives were originally installed.
Were they drive C: resp. sda?
Thanks, Dominic. I guess this is where things get complicated! Let me see if I can outline what we did -- I should have taken notes.

The machine came with Win 10 only on an SSD, Drive C. We then did a first install of Linux Mint 19 on the SSD and used GParted (I think from the live USB stick) to create space for Linux, shrinking the partition for Windows. I think we created sda/4, and later with the second attempt sda/5. This installed, but we could not boot up because GRUB did not show. Then we reinstalled Linux two more times. First we tried with the Something Else option, and changing partition sizes from that point on. This did not work. Then we reinstalled in the same way but made sure that GRUB was loaded inside the Windows partition (my friend did this, and I am not sure how it was done) so that it would come up on startup. That failed too. At present, Win 10 comes up fine on startup, and I suspect Linux Mint is there, but we do not have a way of getting to it, or getting GRUB to show first.

I am not very surefooted when it comes to Linux partitioning, mostly Linux had loaded without problems in the past with BIOS machines. I keep thinking there is way to get GRUB to show on startup in the current situation, but maybe I am wrong.
These are a couple of links I have found regarding this possibility:

https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... at-startup

https://www.lifewire.com/fix-uefi-bootl ... ng-2200655
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#16 Post by Sudevan » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:22 pm

Update:

My colleague Jack (with whom I had attempted the Linux Install yesterday) said he had an idea he wanted to try with one further installation attempt, which will happen tomorrow afternoon. I'll report the results after our next adventure (or misadventure, LOL).
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#17 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 am

From what I read, you are still trying to install both Windows and Linux on the same drive.
That's where your problem lies.
I'm sure it can be done, but it requires a fair knowledge of Linux.
To give you an idea, see this: https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... ive_t440p/

I still say you should install on two drives, it will make your life so much easier!
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#18 Post by Sudevan » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:14 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 am
From what I read, you are still trying to install both Windows and Linux on the same drive.
That's where your problem lies.
I'm sure it can be done, but it requires a fair knowledge of Linux.
To give you an idea, see this: https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... ive_t440p/

I still say you should install on two drives, it will make your life so much easier!
Update:

Well, SUCCESS!

My friend Jack Holmes and I did one final reinstall of Linux Mint 19 after deleting everything else in that partition (mainly our last Mint install) and setting up manual partitioning and specifying partition size, root, home, swap etc. The we tried restarting, but it was still coming up with Win 10 and not Linux Mint. Frustrating! Well, we went into the Startup sequence again and examined its sub menus, and it struck me that the item/device at the top of the Boot Priority Order was the Windows Boot Manager. No wonder Win 10 was coming up when we started the machine! My friend agreed. We found the HDD which was 4th in priority order and moved it up to first, backed out of Setup and restarted. Sure enough the machine started up with Linux Mint. So I now have a system with both OSs, but if I want to go to the one that is not at the top of the Boot Order currently, I will have to go in and change the Boot Order. This is not a big deal, since I plan to use Windows on this machine quite rarely, if at all.

The question that remains is why the Linux Mint Installation did not place GRUB outside the fray, so to speak, and place both Mint and Win 10 in GRUB, like in the earlier BIOS days before UEFI. I think the reason is that UEFI does not easily permit GRUB to have a superordinate position "above" Win 10 and Linux Mint. From what I have read on this problem, it can be done, and there are people who have managed to do this, so I will do some more research to see if I can find out how this can be done. But it will really be just out of scientific curiosity, not out of a real need. That's because I am done with dual-boot systems. I can't see a need for me to have two OSs on any of my Thinkpads (or any other machines for that matter). I am going to go with Linux from this point on. Most of the time I use my older Thinkpads, I use it with Linux and not with Win XP, Win 7, etc. In time, I plan to move fully out of the Windows world.

So I'm happy we fixed this problem. Although I'll concede to my dear friend RBS that he was (and is) right -- it would have been simpler to have put in two separate SSDs with different OSs on them. Point taken, Dominic -- I was just being a mule-headed old bugger! But I do have some satisfaction for having solved the problem, at least to the extent that I did.

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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#19 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:29 am

Congrats are in order! :thumbs-UP:

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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#20 Post by Sudevan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:30 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:29 am
Congrats are in order! :thumbs-UP:
Thanks, Dominic.
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#21 Post by skx » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:17 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 am
From what I read, you are still trying to install both Windows and Linux on the same drive.
That's where your problem lies.
I'm sure it can be done, but it requires a fair knowledge of Linux.
To give you an idea, see this: https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... ive_t440p/

I still say you should install on two drives, it will make your life so much easier!
It is quite easy to do a 1 disk install, but I agree with you and advise strongly against it as Windows is developed to not endorse linux and will each update potentially brick your grub loader. as thinkpads mostly have 2 drive bays, you should always aim to have Linux and Windows on separate disks to avoid getting angry each time windows decided to update itself. I am not dualbooting myself my I am doing it for my friends. The perfect setup is:

DISK1 (main SSD): fully encrypted LUKS Linux install
DISK2 (2nd mSATA SSD): 2 NTFS partitions, with C having the main W10 install and D being a NTFS data partition which allow the enduser to easily move data between the encrypted linux SSD and the NTFS W10 drive
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#22 Post by Sudevan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:28 pm

skx wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:17 am
RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:29 am
From what I read, you are still trying to install both Windows and Linux on the same drive.
That's where your problem lies.
I'm sure it can be done, but it requires a fair knowledge of Linux.
To give you an idea, see this: https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... ive_t440p/

I still say you should install on two drives, it will make your life so much easier!
It is quite easy to do a 1 disk install, but I agree with you and advise strongly against it as Windows is developed to not endorse linux and will each update potentially brick your grub loader. as thinkpads mostly have 2 drive bays, you should always aim to have Linux and Windows on separate disks to avoid getting angry each time windows decided to update itself. I am not dualbooting myself my I am doing it for my friends. The perfect setup is:

DISK1 (main SSD): fully encrypted LUKS Linux install
DISK2 (2nd mSATA SSD): 2 NTFS partitions, with C having the main W10 install and D being a NTFS data partition which allow the enduser to easily move data between the encrypted linux SSD and the NTFS W10 drive
Thank you for your comments, @skx.

The setup I have now has no GRUB bootloader. If I need to use the Linux system, I have to get into UEFI/BIOS and set up the Boot Order Priority so that the HDD is No.1. This is what it is currently. On the rare occasion when I want to run Windows, I will have to change the Boot Order Priority so that Windows Boot Manager is No.1. I don't think one OS sees the other, so it is almost like having two disks. But I may be wrong. Do you think future Win 10 updates will mess up Linux Mint 19.2 in this sort of situation? Should I reinstall Linux in an encrypted fashion?
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#23 Post by Sudevan » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:04 am

I found a potential solution to Windows wrecking the Linux ext4 partition:

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2382978

It's basically using parted and boot repair to restore the Linux partition, as far as I can make out. I will need to study this a bit more, in case it becomes an issue.

Sudevan
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#24 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:43 am

Why can't you just press F12 at bootup, and then select which drive/boot manager to boot from?
No need to go into BIOS every time (unless F12 is not ENabled in BIOS/Startup).
Or are you on UEFI?
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Re: EMERGENCY! What the heck did I just do? CAN'T Boot!

#25 Post by Sudevan » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:35 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:43 am
Why can't you just press F12 at bootup, and then select which drive/boot manager to boot from?
No need to go into BIOS every time (unless F12 is not ENabled in BIOS/Startup).
Or are you on UEFI?
I don't think F12 worked at all on the T530. Perhaps because it is on UEFI. (Remember, if we had disabled UEFI and installed Linux on Legacy BIOS, Win 10, and likely Linux, would never load -- the OPs experience on this thread). The only way we saw to get to both OSs after installation was entering UEFI and reordering Boot Priority. Windows Boot Manager will load Win 10, and the HDD will load Linux. So I am inferring from this behaviour that GRUB is located on the HDD outside the Windows partition, perhaps in the partition created for Linux. GRUB does not show, it simply goes straight to the Linux Mint logo and goes on from there. I think GRUB will only show if it contains more than one OS ( another Linux, Windows, etc.). For reasons I am not clear on, the Linux installation did not create GRUB in a location where it could see and include both Mint and Win 10. I have to research this whole issue of how UEFI has changed the nature of these partitions and their access to them. Witness also the tendency mentioned earlier by @skx of some Windows 10 forced updates to seize space from the Linux partition and wreck the Linux installation. Ugh!
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