Any T450 series rumors yet?

[xxPaulCPxx]

In reading the reviews of long term T series uses, I see that the T430/T440 leaves ALOT to be desired in the keyboard and trackpad/trackpoint area. I'm a hardcore TrackPoint user... I have to remember to turn the pad back on when I let someone else use it!

So I was wondering if there were any rumors anyone has heard yet about the next iteration of the T series? On Lenovo's site, all their current T series rate no higher that 3 stars - all brought down by keyboard/pad/button reviews.

Has Lenovo heard us?

[kony]

Pre-T430 keyboards aren't coming back, better give up hope. ANyway, no, there are no information about xX50 series whatsoever.

[Ibthink]

On Lenovo's site, all their current T series rate no higher that 3 stars - all brought down by keyboard/pad/button reviews.

Don´t give too much on these ratings, as they can be easily manipulated. Also, notice that all other new ThinkPads besides the T-Series have a higher rating, like like the L-Series etc. : http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/landingpag ... index.html Which is ridiculous, since the L-Series is more low-end than the T-Series...

In reading the reviews of long term T series uses, I see that the T430/T440 leaves ALOT to be desired in the keyboard and trackpad/trackpoint area. I'm a hardcore TrackPoint user... I have to remember to turn the pad back on when I let someone else use it!

I don´t think the reviews on the T430 keyboard were too bad - this change was widely accepted in my perception by almost all user - only a very small group wasn´t ok with this. The new TrackPad of the T440 is of course a bit different. As far as I have heard from users who talked with several Lenovo employees, the TrackPoint-buttons will return. I don´t think they will ever go back to the old keyboard (and I hope so).

The new ThinkPads with Broadwell should be announced either this fall or early next year, depending on Intel and the Broadwell release.

[xxPaulCPxx]

Interesting, I wasn't even aware of the L line, I always go straight to the T line for configurations. I imagine alot of people do that as well - if the T series was your thing, you would not start your search for a replacement by looking at the R series cinderblocks, for instance.

It wouldn't surprise me if the L series had a higher rating either. I suspect alot of people were either buying first time, or buying lower than T for the lower price. The L meets lowered expectations! It's $200 cheaper than a T, and people in that price range are happy with the unit.

I agree that ratings can easily be manipulated... so they are favoring the products the company is trying to push. You might think that if you look at the M73 Tiny reviews which are at 4.4 on Lenovo... I think they are even higher elsewhere like Amazon.

Contrast that with the T series reviews - on Lenovo's site - range between 3 and 3.6. That is SHOCKING for a product like Thinkpad, SHOCKING SHOCKING (Yes, 2X!) that rating come on T series, one of the most beloved series of any brand. Who was giving those reviews - T SERIES OWNERS!!! It's like every member of this cult suddenly said "Whoa there, I'm starting to questions the Great Leader"

I grateful for the info you passed on though, that the pointer buttons are due to return. I don't want to question the Great Leader's wishes anymore. That would make me feel uncomfortable about going pantsless all the time.

[cb474]

It's not much, but in this German ThinkPad forum thread (http://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/177974 ... 50-T450%29), someone found a link on Lenovo's website mentioning the X250 and T450: http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... nc01ww.txt.

No really a rumor, just confirming what we could have guessed, that these models will exist. I'm curious if there will be any redesign, but a simple chipset refresh seems perhaps more likely, as others have said.

[Puppy]

The only hope is http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=114090

[ajkula66]

The only hope is http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=114090

But even that one doesn't sport a proper keyboard...

[Ibthink]

But even that one doesn't sport a proper keyboard...

It has a proper keyboard, but probably not the proper keyboard you might want. Unlike the new ClickPad, the new keyboards are widely accepted by the overwhelming majority of users. Lenovo will never go back to the old keyboards, because this change was a huge success for them.

It's not much, but in this German ThinkPad forum thread (http://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/177974 ... 50-T450%29), someone found a link on Lenovo's website mentioning the X250 and T450: http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... nc01ww.txt.

No really a rumor, just confirming what we could have guessed, that these models will exist. I'm curious if there will be any redesign, but a simple chipset refresh seems perhaps more likely, as others have said.

Like Helix 2, these models will either have dedicated TrackPoint buttons in all configs or the option between two different palmrests.

[ajkula66]

Unlike the new ClickPad, the new keyboards are widely accepted by the overwhelming majority of users. Lenovo will never go back to the old keyboards, because this change was a huge success for them.

And this statement of yours is based on exactly what verifiable data?

[pianowizard]

I don´t think they will ever go back to the old keyboard (and I hope so).

In what way(s) do you find the current keyboard superior to the old keyboard? In your answer, please also state whether you are a touch-typist. I have a feeling you aren't.

Lenovo will never go back to the old keyboards, because this change was a huge success for them.

What aspect(s) of the new keyboard made it a huge success?

[Ibthink]

@ajkula66,
There is no need for me to provide such - you can believe me or not. I can say there were many, many people who lamented initialy over the change in all forums (including notebookreview and ThinkPad-Forum.de) I follow, and many of them later changed their position when they actually tried one of these keyboards. It seems Tx30 series appeared sold very well. Also, unlike the new ClickPad, they did not get any negative reviews from review sites and mostly very positive reviews from users. Of course there is a certain group who wasn´t happy and still isn´t happy, but this group isn´t very big.

I don´t think they will ever go back to the old keyboard (and I hope so).

In what way(s) do you find the current keyboard superior to the old keyboard? In your answer, please also state whether you are a touch-typist. I have a feeling you aren't.

Just because I think the new keyboard is better doesn´t mean I am no touch typist - yes, I can touch type.

I like the layout better (I like PgUp and PgDown better where they are now) and the typing feel (keystroke etc.), and the rigidity of the keyboard is also improved. There is no general correct answer on this question, as keyboards are something highly subjective.

[ajkula66]

@ajkula66,
There is no need for me to provide such - you can believe me or not.

Well then, don't be surprised if you're not taken seriously by others on this forum...

[Ibthink]

Well then, don't be surprised if you're not taken seriously by others on this forum...

Why? Does anyone else in this forum provide data when they say general things like "the clickpad is widely unaccepted"? This statement is based on the same method: Watching and reading reviews, user reactions, etc. Have you any data that proves me wrong? No, you don´t.

I don´t care if anyone here takes me serious or not. Its the most irrelevant thing for me.

Edit: One more note: If the new keyboard would have hurt Lenovos sales, they would not have gone in the direction they took the Tx40 models - because these changes are based on the fact that they wanted to go "even further" (as stated by them when they introduced T431s).

[600X]

From what I've read in the past two years, most people don't mind the new island style keyboard (what exactly that means is left up to your imagination, it's definitely no reason for lenovo to change back), but what many do despise is the layout. If enough people complain, lenovo does take action, as they did with the integrated trackpoint buttons and adaptive keyboard row on the X1 Carbon New.

[pianowizard]

Just because I think the new keyboard is better doesn´t mean I am no touch typist - yes, I can touch type. I like the layout better (I like PgUp and PgDown better where they are now)

Sorry for being not sufficiently clear the first time around. I wasn't just asking whether you touch-type the letter keys, which of course were never changed, but whether you touch-type the keys that got changed, e.g. the PgUp and PgDown keys. I asked because if you look at those keys anyway, then shuffling them won't have as much impact.

and the typing feel (keystroke etc.), and the rigidity of the keyboard is also improved. There is no general correct answer on this question, as keyboards are something highly subjective.

Which is fine since I was asking specifically about why YOU prefer the new keyboard.

I can say there were many, many people who lamented initialy over the change in all forums (including notebookreview and ThinkPad-Forum.de) I follow, and many of them later changed their position when they actually tried one of these keyboards.

But what does "changing their position" mean? Does that mean "the new keyboard isn't so bad after all", or "the new keyboard is better"?

It seems Tx30 series appeared sold very well.

But how did you know that's due to the new keyboard?

Edit: One more note: If the new keyboard would have hurt Lenovos sales, they would not have gone in the direction they took the Tx40 models - because these changes are based on the fact that they wanted to go "even further" (as stated by them when they introduced T431s).

That's a simple interpretation. Have you thought of other possibilities, for example, the new keyboard is cheaper to make?

Does anyone else in this forum provide data when they say general things like "the clickpad is widely unaccepted"?

Well, on forums, I do see more complaints than praises for the clickpad. So, while people don't have scientific data supporting their statements, they do have more data than you, at least data available to the public (rather than "poll numbers" that you collect from your coworkers and family members).

[ajkula66]

Why? Does anyone else in this forum provide data when they say general things like "the clickpad is widely unaccepted"? This statement is based on the same method: Watching and reading reviews, user reactions, etc. Have you any data that proves me wrong? No, you don´t.

You are the one who made the "success" statement in the first place. The burden of proof rests with you.

I don´t care if anyone here takes me serious or not. Its the most irrelevant thing for me.

Well then, you should consider the possibility that your own posts will be considered as irrelevant.

Edit: One more note: If the new keyboard would have hurt Lenovos sales, they would not have gone in the direction they took the Tx40 models - because these changes are based on the fact that they wanted to go "even further" (as stated by them when they introduced T431s).

And once again, what do we know about actual number of "new" ThinkPads sold vs. the "old" ones? Not to mention the fact that even if the numbers were readily available, there's more than one way to look at them. Always.

From what I've read in the past two years, most people don't mind the new island style keyboard (what exactly that means is left up to your imagination, it's definitely no reason for lenovo to change back), but what many do despise is the layout.

Indeed. I've never argued about the quality or the typing feel of the "new" keyboard myself. Different it is, horrible it's not.

The layout is a whole another matter.

For those of us that were unhappy with the changes made, only two routes remain:

a) Accept the change - to which I say "heck, no" - but to each their own.

b) Vote with your wallet and take your business elsewhere. No, there isn't a 7-row keyboard available on any laptop that is currently available. But the very fact that one now must re-learn how to type opens the world of possibilities and opportunities...

[Ibthink]

Sorry for being not sufficiently clear the first time around. I wasn't just asking whether you touch-type the letter keys, which of course were never changed, but whether you touch-type the keys that got changed, e.g. the PgUp and PgDown keys. I asked because if you look at those keys anyway, then shuffling them won't have as much impact.

Sure - of course I needed to get used to it first, but after this short period of time, it is as natural as before for me.

But what does "changing their position" mean? Does that mean "the new keyboard isn't so bad after all", or "the new keyboard is better"?

Tie, as I have experinced both.

But how did you know that's due to the new keyboard?

We don´t - but the point is, it also didn´t hurt their sales compared with the previous gen with the old keyboard (unlike it seems the ClickPad).

That's a simple interpretation. Have you thought of other possibilities, for example, the new keyboard is cheaper to make?

Could be possible of course, but is a bit unlogical if you think about it, the backlight sure isn´t cheap. I have bought replacement backlight keyboards, and they cost more compared to the old classic keyboard.

[brchan]

The new chiclet style keyboard on my W530 is roughly the same in tactile feedback and response as my past T60 chicony keyboard, but not as nice as my current NMB one. However, the typing experience is still quite good. The layout can be a bit annoying to adjust to, as most have said. One big annoyance about the new keyboard is the removal of the back/forward keys. I use these keys all the time because it make browsing much faster and easier. You can still use the ALT + LEFT/RIGHT arrow key combinations, but its not the same.

[pianowizard]

Could be possible of course, but is a bit unlogical if you think about it, the backlight sure isn´t cheap. I have bought replacement backlight keyboards, and they cost more compared to the old classic keyboard.

Whenever we make comparisons, the number of variables needs to be minimized, ideally only one. In this case, we should compare a backlit old keyboard with a backlit new keyboard. Perhaps the latter is cheaper to make than the former.

Sure - of course I needed to get used to it first, but after this short period of time, it is as natural as before for me.

In other words, after making some effort, the new layout works as well as the old one, but not better. The obvious question is, why were the keys shuffled around in the first place?

[Ibthink]

Whenever we make comparisons, the number of variables needs to be minimized, ideally only one. In this case, we should compare a backlit old keyboard with a backlit new keyboard. Perhaps the latter is cheaper to make than the former.

Sadly, its a hypothetical discussion which we can´t do, since the former one doesn´t exist.

In other words, after making some effort, the new layout works as well as the old one, but not better. The obvious question is, why were the keys shuffled around in the first place?

You asked about touch typing - this does work as well as before for me, correct. I still think that the new layout is better (because of the position of the PgUp and Down, and also Delete if I think about it).

The question is one only Lenovo can answer, but one reason might be that the new keyboard has a smaller footprint than the old one (just compare X220 palmrest size with X240 palmrest size). But its only a guess.

[Medessec]

Why? Does anyone else in this forum provide data when they say general things like "the clickpad is widely unaccepted"? This statement is based on the same method: Watching and reading reviews, user reactions, etc. Have you any data that proves me wrong? No, you don´t.

You are the one who made the "success" statement in the first place. The burden of proof rests with you.

This is a tad harsh to Ibthink here... but really, the facts are very important to us, because we desire greatly to see what direction Lenovo is taking. Hearing that the Chiclet keyboard was generally successful is something we take a second glance to- because some of here have been in the same boat, except we happen to strongly prefer the older keyboards(...like me.) A classmate in APCG 240(Storyboarding and Animation class) had a W530 and I had to type all my documents on it, and I thought after I got used to it... it was alright. But something about the old keys is just nicer... I like the sloped edges, and the flatter contact. I type weird too... I chicken-pick with both index fingers, and cover Enter/Backspace with my middle finger. No home row.

But the Clickpad thing I'm far more bothered about. Because the chiclet keyboard was still designed with touch-typing and IT/Dev in mind, it's a product with a need in mind. (well, it isn't anymore, but anyways...)

The reasons they decided to finalize and endorse the Clickpad... is all completely beyond me. Think of if they took the normal keyboard with separate mechanized keys, and replaced it with a touchscreen, and the "keys", or letters were simply displayed, and not even displaying boxes. Just all vague nonsense. You hit J, but you miss a little bit(because it ALL FEELS THE SAME) so the software goes, "oh. Maybe he actually wants K?" THIS, is the lack of precision and tactile feedback we get with ANY sort of Clickpad feature, clicking action in a Clickpad, etc.

The Trackpoint was made, all that long ago, to be a precise, tactile solution to the mouse pointer problem on a mobile computer. The clickers are separate mechanized buttons, because like typing... every click matters, where the click lands, when the click happens at what time, if the pointer is still moving while the click registers, etc. Integrating the normally separate clickers into the one Clickpad, is a detriment to the precision that power users are normally expecting, especially if they've never used the Touchpad, just the TrackPoint all their life.

So... what is the Clickpad for? It's made to be a cool, slick, smooth solution for ease of use to the ultimate extreme, kind of like when Apple introduced those one-click mouses with those old tube-screen iMacs and eMacs way back in the day. Remember that? For all the people who don't know any better, and just want to check their Instagram, upload their Vines, social networking, whatever stupid waste of time and human resource.

The Clickpad on the Thinkpad: makes absolutely no sense, doesn't belong on there, isn't fitting with the rest of what makes a Thinkpad a Thinkpad, and it just brings down the original "Premium" tag that we can barely stamp on the Haswell Thinkpads at the moment anyways.

As for modern Thinkpads and the changes, sales, market, statistics, and all the rest:
I believe to an extent... there is no statistics, there is no market. Change isn't guided by surveying either or what the customer wants, the changes are guided by hunches, botched meetings, and mostly trends. True innovation, cleverness, and experimentation as I know it- no longer exists. It's only, "did this sell? Yes? Well, make more of it and keep selling it." The industry is on a runaway train because people buy, and buy, and buy, because of the way things have become now. We've talked about this countless times, but I'll say it again. People buy things, use it up, then throw it away. And that makes the big-wigs the most money, keeps people in work, and pushes research. It's stupid, and results in poor quality units, we ask for perfection(which we used to receive) but it seems now no matter what brand we turn to- we can never get exactly what we want. Because: We may know better than the manufacturers, but 95% of the people who buy stuff don't, or aren't bothered enough to say anything.

Now, I know some of what I've said isn't strictly true, nor does some of it even make complete sense or match other people's experience. But this is based off MY experience. I've repaired countless laptops and desktop computers, other electronics, talked to people who owned specific devices(Android tablets, Smartphones, eBooks, even toys, TVs, and audio equipment), and had my OWN experience in online discussions on forums such as this one and talking with my British friend. So yes, it may seem like a crazy opinion and crazy gathering of statements, maybe even some intolerance and anger has brushed off a bit... but that's because I take this seriously! And this is how I actually feel! I may only be 20(turning 21 this October) but man... am I angry about the direction technology is taking. And the Thinkpad going from the fabulous symphony of engineering that we could be happy to call the W500, to the W540... and the lack of any true sporting wow-factor laptops(W700ds), has only spiraled my faith further downward. The 90s to the 2000s and to the 2010s has seen a dramatic change in how laptops and computers are seen and treated by people...

[skrasher]

Hi! So I've been following along really closely. I HATE that T440 touchpad. For a trackpoint user like me, it's total garbage. For a non-trackpoint user it's still total garbage. 've been really slow to roll out any T440's to my users. Only for users that usually use a mouse. I make do by tapping instead of clicking, but it is a productivity killer.

BUT there is hope. I saw this video on youtube of the new Helix, and it looks like they brought back the trackpoint buttons. That's mostly what I care about. If they decide to stick with the same touchpad that fully clicks down like on the T440, that's okay as long as trackpoint buttons are back. I would like to see a normal touchpad though too, and it doesn't look like the T440 style to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMZZjB6kIs

[Medessec]

The Helix is kind of outside the cousin/family/brotherly-loop of X/T/W premium lineup of laptops, I'd figure they have a different team of loons working on it... it'd be interesting to know if they stuck with the Trackpoint buttons because of the Haswell Thinkpads, or because of other factors...

All they have to do to make me happy is take a Synaptics touchpad from a T4x/T6x/T5xx, make the touch area bigger, and keep trackpoint buttons and everything separate, tactile buttons.

[dr_st]

About the keyboard:

Although like everyone else, I to do not have any verifiable data, but from the opinions on people on the forums and also in person, here's how it seems to me:

* The number of users who prefer the new layout is far smaller than the number of users who prefer the old layout.
* However, the number of users who simply don't care about it is far larger than both the groups above.

This, together with the fact that the new keyboard has other advantages (being backlit, more rigid), and the fact that no other manufacturer currently offers a proper standard layout keyboard, certainly explains why there was no noticeable dent in the sales that can be attributed to screwing up the keyboard layout.

Even with the screwed up keyboard (yes, I will continue calling it such, on purpose), the Thinkpads are still closer to Thinkpads than other brands. So for people who like Thinkpads, they are still a good choice. And such people may still buy them.

The number of people who, out of ideology or pure spite, will buy a different brand is small. At first at least.

Long term, I believe, Lenovo will be hurt by these moves. Not because of the keyboard change itself, but because of what it signifies - a company that is losing its sense of direction and confidence. Just look at all the erratic changes to the user interface that have come to pass in such a short time frame since that initial "violation of the sacred keyboard".

It is a very short-sighted strategy. In the short term it might actually boost sales, but long term, there will be no differentiation between Lenovo and the rest of the pack to keep that solid customer base. Once you lose your uniqueness and possible competitive advantages, and find comfort in being an Apple copy-cat just like everyone else, you'll go down just like everyone else, because Apple you are not.

[Medessec]

Once you lose your uniqueness and possible competitive advantages, and find comfort in being an Apple copy-cat just like everyone else, you'll go down just like everyone else, because Apple you are not.

Well... i think it's a matter of market and populace, and as I explained in my above rant, the industry is on kind of a runaway trend, where there's one big idea currently in play (Apple) and to stay in business, every other company has no logical choice other than to do whatever they can to scrap up their share. It's how things work now- people look at the latest and greatest, and whatever way they've been convinced, they buy up electronic devices on a misguided and wasteful lemming train.

* The number of users who prefer the new layout is far smaller than the number of users who prefer the old layout.
* However, the number of users who simply don't care about it is far larger than both the groups above.

This is extremely important to know- because it gives you an idea of just how dramatically awful the problem is. I've witnessed it firsthand, I've had numerous friends of friends who have absurdly wealthy parents, or not even... just spend years and years scrapping up a nice college fund, and they blow thousands of dollars into an Alienware, HP Elitebook, or a MacBook Pro, and bring it to me with quality issues and concerns. It's beyond sad...

Even with the screwed up keyboard (yes, I will continue calling it such, on purpose), the Thinkpads are still closer to Thinkpads than other brands.

Yeah... see, this isn't good enough. It'll never be good enough, ever again, from what I've seen. Going back to the market thing, in the 90s, the Thinkpad brand thrived, because it was a genuinely supreme business and computing tool, by customers who demanded functionality and perfection, and they got it. And it only got better.

The computing world changed dramatically around the Thinkpad. It's really disappointing, but we all know that the Thinkpad brand can't survive unless it joins in the sissy-slap for sales. To be honest, I would rather Thinkpad have just died, instead of Lenovo taking it to completely defile it. The Chiclet keyboard was probably allowed, but the Haswell Thinkpad have sealed the deal- Lenovo has NO desire to maintain the Thinkpad brand's original ideology.

[dr_st]

Well, this is the key point I disagree with:

the industry is on kind of a runaway trend, where there's one big idea currently in play (Apple) and to stay in business, every other company has no logical choice other than to do whatever they can to scrap up their share.

This choice is only logical for companies whose bread and butter is being copycats. Companies that for whatever reason (resources, ideology, culture, history, whatever) can't do enough high-quality research or original development. But there are always those, that are leaders and trend setters, not mere followers. It is not true that there can only be one big player, and once Apple got that niche everyone else is doomed to just copy them and fight for scraps. If that was true, how would Apple rise in the first place?

IBM is a leader, and when it owned the brand, IBM's leadership culture was reflected in it. Lenovo apparently is not a leader. There may have been some hope, that having acquired the brand, and all the engineers as well, the culture would rub off, but now, almost a decade since - it appears it has not. And it is sad, to me at least.

That is not of course to say that everything IBM did for Thinkpads was good or that everything that Lenovo is doing is bad. But that particular point is evident.

[pianowizard]

the industry is on kind of a runaway trend, where there's one big idea currently in play (Apple) and to stay in business, every other company has no logical choice other than to do whatever they can to scrap up their share.

Why is everyone copying from Apple, when its laptops aren't selling particularly well? Apple's profits are mainly from its other products. You may have seen Apple ranking high in PC sales, but that's only because those rankings include tablets. Excluding tablets, Apple's market share in the world remains pitifully small. Even within the States, Apple laptops account for only around 10% of all sales in recent quarters.

[Medessec]

I probably should've mentioned as well, and this adds onto dr_st's note:

But there are always those, that are leaders and trend setters, not mere followers.

You can consider Apple a trend setter, as they were always doing their own thing. They always wanted computing to be simpler and easier, in bringing computers to the household. Others were doing this as well, so it was tough for Apple. And some of their creations were quite commendable. Apple is, to some degree, an innovator. And I appreciate that.

But with the iPhone and the iPod touch, a new breed and new view of technology sort of came into the picture. And oddly enough this was all right around when Lenovo bought up the Thinkpad brand. But smartphones showed people that the stuff that home-based users do on computers all the time(type up documents, browse the web, play mini-games, contact/message friends) doesn't have to be done on a laptop, let alone a desktop computer. And with the later generation iPhones and competing smartphones improving processing power, memory capacity, capability, ease of use, features(better camera/video/sound), laptops and computers are left on the sideline, and their customers have a totally different view of them now... I think these "smartphone people" only see the advantages of a laptop or desktop by the disadvantages a phone has(screen, battery life, desktop/screen estate, storage capabilities, software/power capabilities, keyboard) so as long as the laptop fulfills these needs, REGARDLESS of any other aspect, they buy it, and they're happy. This I think is what spawned the Tablet craze, and the giant smartphones which are phones... but really they're mini-tablets, and the Ultrabook.

People have finally caught on to what Apple always had in mind, and they've latched onto it like nothing else. Even MS, who spent the 90s developing one of the most amazing OS cores from scratch(which IBM had a play in, btw!), released a Game Console that got them an instant ticket into the home console business, and maintains a suite of pretty universally accepted productivity software (that... yes, is for their own operating system... but they did a pretty good job with it), has had to tremble to it's knees with the introduction of Windows 8, which sacrifices pretty much every aspect of productivity for ease of use(Apple.)

I'm just talking about the computing world... there's little room for innovation now-and people hardly dig into something that tries. It's hard to see anyone "leading a trend", all I see is that computing is going from a symphony of productivity, expandability, and customizability, to... yeah. I wouldn't mind it if people were still productive, but they're not. They're just sitting in the waiting room at the doctor's, playing a cheap ripoff of Tetris, or doing the same at a restaurant, park, train station, wherever. They'd rather post to social networking about their trip, rather than talk it over with a friend they're walking with right next to them.

[Ibthink]

Certainly an interesting discussion.

Regarding the "following of Apple" - its not because Apple sells much now in the PC / Mac space, but because of what they could sell - although not many people buy Macs (for many reasons), there are many, many people who think Macs are good design (I think I read somewhere 2 years ago that about 40 % of the customers in the US would buy Macs or at least are very interested) - people want sleek, modern design (also in business), and Apple managed to make its products a synonym for such. Look at Dell or HPs design in the last few years, in terms of the outer design, they are going a very similar direction. Smartphones also have much to do with it - people use them and think "why can´t my Laptop be as fast and sleek bla bla".

Regarding Lenovo only being a follower or "not a leader", I beg to differ - just look at two products: ThinkCentre Tiny and the Yoga Convertibles. These products had and have a big market influence. Just look at all the Yoga clones from all major manufacturers that popped up in the last monts and also the Tiny clones from HP and Dell, and the Yoga 2 Pro is one of the best selling and highest rated Haswell Ultrabooks. Lenovo certainly has innovative and interesting ideas, some are a big success (Yoga concept), some not so much (Adaptive keyboard for example). But they too have much pressure on them to make change their design more towards modern and sleek - its just what most people demand, also in the business. The important thing is in my perspective to find the right balance between modernizing and preserving. I hope Lenovo sorts it out.

IBM was a leader at one point, but they also where followers at many other points. Before they brought out the ThinkPad brand, they struggled so much to find an answer on Compaqs notebook products, at that point they were always behind. That changed with the ThinkPad in the 90s, where they had a great period of innovation but when the market became too difficult, too consumerized and too commoditized, they lost to much money and just left the market.

[pianowizard]

ThinkCentre Tiny and the Yoga Convertibles. These products had and have a big market influence. Just look at all the Yoga clones from all major manufacturers that popped up in the last monts and also the Tiny clones from HP and Dell

I agree with you on the Yoga, but disagree on tiny desktops. While I can't name any specific models, I have seen plenty of tiny desktops from other manufacturers, and actively researched on several of them about four years ago. No, I am not confusing them with the USFF (ultra small form factor) desktops, which are quite a bit bigger than tiny desktops. I have commented on them at least twice on this forum, a long time ago. You didn't know about them probably because you care mainly about Lenovo products, and there's nothing wrong with that since I too pay more attention to certain brands than others.

Regarding who's leading and who's following, let's not forget that Apple is actually copying Sony, which introduced the chicklet keyboard and ultra thin/stylish laptops back in 2003, through the X505. In fact, when Steve Jobs introduced the MacBook Air, he specifically named the Sony TX Series (Sony's flagship ultraportable at that time) as his model. He said he improved on the TX Series by making the screen bigger, and doing away with the optical drive ("which nobody uses anyway", according to Jobs). However, I do credit Apple for popularizing these new designs.