Is Lenovo completely retarded?!

[don]

My lovely X220 has some hardware issues and it's time to upgrade. I just spent a couple hours on the Lenovo website trying to customize just ONE ThinkPad that actually makes sense. Not going to happen. Here it goes:

1.) X250, finally back with dedicated track buttons but what's up with soldered RAM and only one available RAM socket?! On top of this: single channel speeds only. My 5 year old X220 has fast and more RAM. Backwards engineering much Lenovo?!

2.) T450s has IPS panels but again same soldered RAM on main board;.

3.) T450 has 2 RAM sockets BUT no IPS at all.

4.) T440p has no track buttons and there is no T450p. THE "p" ThinkPad were most complained that they need the track buttons back doesn't get them at all! No sense at all. What a joke!

5.) W451 slows down to 800Mhz after only 6 minutes full power. What kinda WORKINGSTATION is that supposed to be?

6.) W450s has only regular i7s and no FHD IPS panel (like most). I don't need a 3k screen on a small 14' or 15". I won't be able to see that small.

Lenovo.. you REALLY sukk! If I wanted a handbag Starbucks blingy thingy I'd buy an Apple.

Give me a 14" T450p with 1920 IPS, i7 4 core, 2 RAM sockets up to 32 GB, dedicated GPU WITH docking port and an old style ThinkPad 7 row keyboard with LED and ThinkLight. After that you should only be allowed to upgrade main board, CPU, GPU, RAM and WiFi standards!

I don't give a if it weighs 6 pounds. If I can drop it without cracking edges even better. I also don't need 12 hour batteries; in my case it needs to hold a charge from docking station in office to docking station at home!

I NEED A LAPTOP THAT I CAN WORK WITH

I haven't been so mad in a long time.

[ZaZ]

I understand you're upset, but that is not an excuse to use vulgar language or bypass the language filter. Maybe that's OK where you're at, but we don't roll that way here, K?

Lenovo builds the notebooks that they think will sell the most. They're in business to make a profit, just like every other business. While there certainly are smaller subsets of people who want these things, the trend in notebooks is smaller, thinner, lighter, and to accommodate this, notebook manufactures sometimes have to make trade-offs, which would include soldering memory amongst other things. If they thought they could make a bucking making the notebook you want, they probably would. The power you have in your relationship with Lenovo is to buy something else until they get the message.

[don]

I understand you're upset, but that is not an excuse to use vulgar language or bypass the language filter. Maybe that's OK where you're at, but we don't roll that way here, K?

Lenovo builds the notebooks that they think will sell the most. They're in business to make a profit, just like every other business. While there certainly are smaller subsets of people who want these things, the trend in notebooks is smaller, thinner, lighter, and to accommodate this, notebook manufactures sometimes have to make trade-offs, which would include soldering memory amongst other things. If they thought they could make a bucking making the notebook you want, they probably would. The power you have in your relationship with Lenovo is to buy something else until they get the message.

The problem is, there isn't anything else to buy. DELL comes closest but their docking stations are known to cause issues all the time. Guess why I kept my X220 so long. If I had an alternative I'd be long gone and wouldn't even post here.

Lenovo has so many different laptop model lines. It wouldn't hurt them one inch to keep just 2 ThinkPads for developer, programmer and alike the way they used to be. Make it a X220 and a T420 ThinkPad and only upgrade the internals. Every EX ThinkPad owner I know would come back in a heartbeat.

If Lenovo's design team made the right decisions why are almost all their reviews going downhill since?

There's an old programmer saying: NEVER change a running system.

PS: I just saw that you own a DELL. How is it treating you? Are you using a docking station with 2 external monitors? Any issues?

[fb1996]

what's up with soldered RAM and only one available RAM socket?! On top of this: single channel speeds only. My 5 year old X220 has fast and more RAM. Backwards engineering much Lenovo?!

The X250 has no soldered RAM and you can use up to 16GB. I doubt that it is possible that your X220 has more than 16GB RAM...

there is no T450p.

Intel didn't release the Broadwell-H CPUs yet.

There's an old programmer saying: NEVER change a running system.

T420 and X220 may be running systems, but their build quality is mediocre and the screens are abysmal.

Admin edit: Corrected attribution of last quote to don, not ZaZ

[ZaZ]

Give me a 14" T450p with 1920 IPS, i7 4 core, 2 RAM sockets up to 32 GB, dedicated GPU WITH docking port and an old style ThinkPad 7 row keyboard with LED and ThinkLight. After that you should only be allowed to upgrade main board, CPU, GPU, RAM and WiFi standards!

Your problem may rest with Intel rather than Lenovo, who have not see fit to release performance Broadwell CPUs yet. A T450p would have checked a lot of your boxes, but that's not an option until Intel gets their act together, which is why the T440p is still available for purchase. You could look at the T440p and swap the touchpad for the one with buttons.

Notebooks are not like desktops. The boards are highly specialized. Other than rare cases, motherboards can't be swapped. No ThinkPad I'm aware of has a swappable GPU. I think the new keyboard is quite good from a typing perspective. If you're upset about the function keys, you've got a point, but I don't think old style is coming back, so a better use of your time would be to learn the new one.

I haven't used a dock since my T42. I'm happy with my Dell given that I got it for a song. My only real complaint with it is I wish the trackpoint were a bit better. The keyboard isn't as good either, but I don't type fast enough to care. I probably would have went for the T440s had it been given trackpoint buttons and the T450s wasn't an option when made my choice.

[hhhd1]

I do strongly agree with the first post, to add to it:

1. They have not used any of the available 28 watt broadwell processors with higher base clocks (the ones MAC uses), and instead, only using 15 watt processors.

2. Given that they only use 15w CPUs, you would have hoped they use proper cooling to allow maximum constant turbo boost, but they do not, and the processors end up throttling (see discussion thread on NBR forums)

3. Very low quality screen on anything less than the maximum resolution, and on some laptops, only low quality screens exists, even though it wouldn't have costed them that much to put a slightly better screen, it doesn't have to be IPS or with 95% gamut.

[killer]

I do strongly agree with the first post, to add to it:

1. They have not used any of the available 28 watt broadwell processors with higher base clocks (the ones MAC uses), and instead, only using 15 watt processors.

2. Given that they only use 15w CPUs, you would have hoped they use proper cooling to allow maximum constant turbo boost, but they do not, and the processors end up throttling (see discussion thread on NBR forums)

3. Very low quality screen on anything less than the maximum resolution, and on some laptops, only low quality screens exists, even though it wouldn't have costed them that much to put a slightly better screen, it doesn't have to be IPS or with 95% gamut.

As @:ZaZ said the Broadwell processors haven't been released yet.

Cooling is not a problem unless you live in a very hot environment. Lenovo has restrictions on temperature highs and lows. RTFM!

Screen quality of 2880 x 1620 is in your words, 'very low'. I don't think so ... it is fantastic. If you can't afford higher screen resolution then don't criticise it.

I have no idea why you are complaining when I'm not certain what you are using.

[hhhd1]

As @:ZaZ said the Broadwell processors haven't been released yet.

Cooling is not a problem unless you live in a very hot environment. Lenovo has restrictions on temperature highs and lows. RTFM!

Screen quality of 2880 x 1620 is in your words, 'very low'. I don't think so ... it is fantastic. If you can't afford higher screen resolution then don't criticise it.

Broadwell 28 watt processors have been released, along with the 15w counterparts.

W550s throtling issues seems to be more than just very hot environment, and even if in hot environment, it should be handled a bit better, according to some forum posts on NBR, it throttles to less than the base clock.

Throttling on 15 w processor is 'really bad'.

I am not critizing the 2880x1620 resolution, I am critizing the fact that if you want a lower resolution screen, it must be of low quality.

Many people may need lower resolution, for many reasons (less than perfect eyes, poor OS DPI support, linux, low resolution being enough for my work, ..etc)

for the 14/15 inch laptops, the 1366x768 / 1600x900 / 1920x1080 are still what the majority needs

I have no idea why you are complaining when I'm not certain what you are using.

Currently using Thinkpad T520 with FHD.

in the past have used Thinkpad T30 and few other HP's and Lenovo's

[ajkula66]

The X250 has no soldered RAM and you can use up to 16GB.

True, but in a single-channel mode. Rather laughable in 2015. We've enjoyed dual-channel mode in T43/p a decade ago.

T420 and X220 may be running systems, but their build quality is mediocre and the screens are abysmal.

I wouldn't call the IPS panel in the X220 abysmal. As for the build quality, *any* full-size ThinkPad after the T61 series leaves a lot to be desired in that respect...

I am not critizing the 2880x1620 resolution, I am critizing the fact that if you want a lower resolution screen, it must be of low quality.

Agreed 10001%. Until Windows - and related software even more so (I'm looking at you Adobe) - gets its scaling to the Mac level at the very least the otherwise lovely Panasonic 3K IPS panels will remain useless in too many scenarios.

[don]

Some really good replays here especially the link to "T440p and swap the touchpad for the one with buttons", this might me an option and everything hhhd1 had to say is spot on.

@hhhd1 Do you know of any throttling issues with the T440P?

I talked to Lenovo Chat yesterday and explained my dilemma. He immediately understood and indicated that he is dealing with frustrated customers over the same issues every single day. After a long and good talk he hinted that the new T450P will come out at the end of this month (May). I asked if he's sure about that and he confirmed.

[fb1996]

Broadwell 28 watt processors have been released, along with the 15w counterparts.

The problem is that none of these 28W Broadwell-U CPUs has Intel vPro.

True, but in a single-channel mode.

You may get 20% or 30% more GPU performance with dual channel, but the overall performance gain of dual channel isn't that high.

I wouldn't call the IPS panel in the X220 abysmal.

How would you call a panel with a low resolution and a low color space coverage that suffers from backlight bleeding and even ghosting in some cases? Contrast ratio and viewing angles are good, but that are basically all the advantages of the IPS panel used in the X220.

[hhhd1]

@hhhd1 Do you know of any throttling issues with the T440P?

According to this thread,
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads ... 59/page-27

the T440p does not seem to have any serious throttling issue, it throttles only when stress testing the CPU and the GPU at the same time, which is 'fine'.

Broadwell 28 watt processors have been released, along with the 15w counterparts.

The problem is that none of these 28W Broadwell-U CPUs has Intel vPro.

Lenovo does release some Thinkpads with i3 and i5 that do not have vpro, it is a bad decision IMO to not include any 28w processor in any of their models, not even the L/X/Edge series or the T***i series.

[fb1996]

Lenovo does release some Thinkpads with i3 and i5 that do not have vpro

That's true, but as far as I know, there is no ThinkPad series where you can't get a vPro enabled CPU at the moment. A ThinkPad with a 28W CPU would not have vPro at all and that would be a huge disadvantage for some enterprise customers.

[ZaZ]

Contrast ratio and viewing angles are good

For most users, particularly the X220, that's enough.

[ajkula66]

How would you call a panel with a low resolution and a low color space coverage that suffers from backlight bleeding and even ghosting in some cases?

Way above standard for Lenovo's offerings on other models.

Let's not pretend that prior to IPS panels found on *40 series screens seen on ThinkPads were anything to write home about. They were not.

Not to mention that there are numerous panels in today's ThinkPads - not necessarily low-end models - that are sheer junk.

[exTPfan]

Let's not pretend that prior to IPS panels found on *40 series screens seen on ThinkPads were anything to write home about. They were not.

They were, at least compared to later non IPS screens. I stopped being a TP fan when I compared the 14 inch SXGA+ screen on a T61 with a similar screen on a T42, and the screen on the X300/X301 was worse than I had been able to imagine. The screen on the T42 is quite useable, even in comparison with IPS screens.

[Pokrzept]

@don: I have a solution for you - if you need an piece of hardware that is rock solid, and you need real performance with fair input devices and good screen quality you should abandon Lenovo and go get a proper Dell Precision workstation. I have had same feelings you have atm few months ago. I gave a chance to T540p, i was hoping to see some improvements in x50p generation but instead of improvements all I could see was Lenovo laughing @ me and asking for another fortune for an useless piece of junk. In the end I let it go and bought M4800 with 16GiG of RAM, FHD display and i7-4800MQ. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of THINKPAD brand and technology (even now I'm typing on x201) and I was in possession of T420, T430 and T540p in recent years but those units did not ring my bell like my T601F and M4800 do.

[jayk]

I hear you, Don. Lenovo makes some truly bizarre choices that greatly diminish their product offerings... why not offer IPS screens more broadly (or, better still, just make them standard, at least on premium T, W and X series)? Why solder a paltry 4GB of RAM to the motherboard? Why offer a discrete GPU in Europe but not in the US? Why offer only the numeric-keypad keyboard on the larger machines, forcing the touchpad off-center (an ergonomic nightmare, if you ask me). Why offer some excellent 'retina'-resolution panels while not providing IPS (or equivalent) FHD-resolution options? I'm not saying there isn't much to like about Thinkpads, but why settle for ok when you could be outstanding?

Given that they already offers hundreds and hundreds of SKUs and allows considerable customization of most of their machines, a few simple changes would cost little while improving their product offerings tremendously (and make a lot of people happy). And it would, most importantly, sell more computers. My T530 has served me well for 3-1/2 years. I don't love the size, weight nor the TN FHD screen, but every potential 'upgrade' is a step down in some way. So I keep waiting.... T450p, maybe... whenever that happens.

[don]

@don: I have a solution for you - if you need an piece of hardware that is rock solid, and you need real performance with fair input devices and good screen quality you should abandon Lenovo and go get a proper Dell Precision workstation. I have had same feelings you have atm few months ago. I gave a chance to T540p, i was hoping to see some improvements in x50p generation but instead of improvements all I could see was Lenovo laughing @ me and asking for another fortune for an useless piece of junk. In the end I let it go and bought M4800 with 16GiG of RAM, FHD display and i7-4800MQ. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of THINKPAD brand and technology (even now I'm typing on x201) and I was in possession of T420, T430 and T540p in recent years but those units did not ring my bell like my T601F and M4800 do.

I just had (another) look at the M4800 and I think you are right. It even comes with 4 RAM sockets, the fast CPUs, dedicated GPU, the right FHD panel and raid options. If this laptop works well with docking station and 2 external monitors connect both via Display Port I'll get the M4800.

I hear you, Don. Lenovo makes some truly bizarre choices that greatly diminish their product offerings... why not offer IPS screens more broadly (or, better still, just make them standard, at least on premium T, W and X series)? Why solder a paltry 4GB of RAM to the motherboard? Why offer a discrete GPU in Europe but not in the US? Why offer only the numeric-keypad keyboard on the larger machines, forcing the touchpad off-center (an ergonomic Overused word, if you ask me). Why offer some excellent 'retina'-resolution panels while not providing IPS (or equivalent) FHD-resolution options? I'm not saying there isn't much to like about Thinkpads, but why settle for ok when you could be outstanding?

Given that they already offers hundreds and hundreds of SKUs and allows considerable customization of most of their machines, a few simple changes would cost little while improving their product offerings tremendously (and make a lot of people happy). And it would, most importantly, sell more computers. My T530 has served me well for 3-1/2 years. I don't love the size, weight nor the TN FHD screen, but every potential 'upgrade' is a step down in some way. So I keep waiting.... T450p, maybe... whenever that happens.

You nailed it! The IPS panels are there.. same with keyboards.. why not offer an old style 7 row keyboards as an option?

I have a strong feeling that the T450P will also have its issues. Anyway.. I can't wait and the DELL M4800 looks very promising.

[micrex22]

Lenovo builds the notebooks that they think will sell the most. They're in business to make a profit, just like every other business... If they thought they could make a buck making the notebook you want, they probably would. The power you have in your relationship with Lenovo is to buy something else until they get the message.

There are a lot of power users that are willing to pay the extra dime for higher end options that *should* be standard that *were* standard on previous series of ThinkPads. And since ThinkPads are a lot cheaper than they were from the T6x days, getting these high end options should be a given since the reduced cost will be even more enticing for power users.

While there certainly are smaller subsets of people who want these things, the trend in notebooks is smaller, thinner, lighter, and to accommodate this, notebook manufactures sometimes have to make trade-offs, which would include soldering memory amongst other things.

Actually, it's already been proven that the 'direct soldered memory' phenomenon is not due to space constraints (I was reading an article on the MacBook Pro Retina series, and they showed that there was sufficient space for socketed memory). In SOME cases with the *super* thin laptops sockets won't be an option, but on a standard T series? Power users were never in the 'let's build a screen too small that you can't use' boat, so that's not applicable (or at least shouldn't be) to the higher end ThinkPads.

Notebooks are not like desktops. The boards are highly specialized. Other than rare cases, motherboards can't be swapped. No ThinkPad I'm aware of has a swappable GPU. I think the new keyboard is quite good from a typing perspective. If you're upset about the function keys, you've got a point, but I don't think old style is coming back, so a better use of your time would be to learn the new one.

I haven't used a dock since my T42. I'm happy with my Dell given that I got it for a song. My only real complaint with it is I wish the trackpoint were a bit better. The keyboard isn't as good either, but I don't type fast enough to care. I probably would have went for the T440s had it been given trackpoint buttons and the T450s wasn't an option when made my choice.

Desktop mobos can be specialized like laptop ones (and I have a handful of very unique desktops). The thing is the new ThinkPad keyboard is extremely inconsistent between models. Some have soft rubber keys, some don't, some are super cheap and turn glossy after a few days, some have inferior letter printing... etc. There are a lot of typists who are restricted as to how fast they can type on the new ThinkPad keyboards: simply due to the fact the key switches start to fail after 120 WPM. With that said for slow typing and moderate work the new ThinkPad keyboards are OK-- IF.. IF!!!! you get one of the 'good' ones. But your luck will be a total draw from the bag.

And that's correct, Lenovo will not be bringing back the traditional ThinkPad keyboard. It's too expensive, complex and would be the 'sore thumb' in contrast to the other OEMs. I would like to point out that the MacBook chiclet keyboard is miles ahead of the ThinkPad chiclets (the switches don't fail under heavy load), but that's just my five cents.

[jayk]

And that's correct, Lenovo will not be bringing back the traditional ThinkPad keyboard. It's too expensive, complex and would be the 'sore thumb' in contrast to the other OEMs. I would like to point out that the MacBook chiclet keyboard is miles ahead of the ThinkPad chiclets (the switches don't fail under heavy load), but that's just my five cents.

I don't agree with this. I was initially unhappy about switching from the 'traditional' key-caps to the chiclet style (when I switched from a T60 to my T530), but now I actually prefer the feel of the chiclet keys. I'm not sure what you mean about failing under heavy loads, but I've never had a problem with mine. If anything, it seems like I used to get a bit of dust under the keys of the old full-size keyboard pretty regularly (fortunately it was easy to pop them off and clean them)... that hasn't happened yet in 3.5 years with my T530.

As far as the Macbook comparison goes, I completely disagree. I recently test-drove a Macbook pro and I found the keyboard to be much less satisfying than my T530. The Mac has less travel and less tactile feedback. Plus it's really useful having the PgUp and PgDn keys nestled in among the arrow keys (at least it is for software development).

[ajkula66]

Honestly, the keyboard feel of the Macs is what kept me switching to them when Retina screens first came out. I just can't type on them, period. But to each their own.

With the newer systems getting more and more deeply locked - thank you M$ and Intel - the desktops as well as maximization of the older platforms are looking better every day.

And, no, I don't believe we'll ever get to see a "classic" keyboard on a ThinkPad again either.

My $0.02 only...

[lophiomys]

In full support of the OP "don"! Retarded is the right word.
10 years of Thinkpad under the ownership of Lenovo, and they know nothing better
then to produce cheap laptops or half-hearted MacBook clones.

I cant see who any of those new Lenovo Thinkpads would be useful for work,
if you know about the comforts of a T42p / T43p or a T60p.

To cut a long rant short:
Lenovo won't see any money from me, until Lenovo will offer a machine,
which would be similar to a
T42p with a 4:3 high-DPI-IPS-screen,
7-row classic keyboard by NMB,
including a full 5-year-no-hassles warranty, to prove that the build quality would be OK.

[Temetka]

5 year warranty?!? You must be kidding.

The best warranties I have seen are the Dell Pro Support 3 year next business day onsite. I've used them for everything from LCD replacements, motherboard replacements, server parts, etc. Flawless execution each and every time. You can add a year or two at the end of the 3 year cycle. But 5 years out the door is not something I have ever seen on a laptop.

That would require the vendor to maintain a vast supply of parts. Which requires warehouse square footage to store. Which requires money. Not. Going. To. Happen.

We will also never see 4:3 IPS panels anymore. Either get a workstation class laptop or a proper external LCD. The market is driven by consumers, not professionals. Consumers want and will buy cheap 1366x768 LCD's because it fits in their $400-$500 budget for a laptop. The days of building a $2,000 laptop - to start with are over. Only mobile workstations and hardened laptops will have the build quality we desire.

The masses have spoken.

The masses are idiots.

[lophiomys]

A 5-year-no-hassles-warranty will be necessary for Lenovo to restore the lost trust in the build quality.

[Pokrzept]

A 5-year-no-hassles-warranty will be necessary for Lenovo to restore the lost trust in the build quality.

IMHO there's no way back. We are doomed to deal with Dell hardware for next few years, every single other workstation equivalent (Fujitsu Celcius, HP Elitebook, Lenovo W-series) looks like a baby toy in comparison to Precision series. And I really doubt that Chinese business model - quantity over quality - will ever again allow to provide Lenovos Thinkpad made with IBM's build quality.

[jayk]

IMHO there's no way back. We are doomed to deal with Dell hardware for next few years, every single other workstation equivalent (Fujitsu Celcius, HP Elitebook, Lenovo W-series) looks like a baby toy in comparison to Precision series. And I really doubt that Chinese business model - quantity over quality - will ever again allow to provide Lenovos Thinkpad made with IBM's build quality.

Style-wise Lenovo still has the edge over Dell (except possibly for the M3800). And the trackpoint/new trackpad is better than what Dell offers. I'm not sure about build-quality of the latest machines... are the Dell Precisions really built that much better than the W/T-series?

Lenovo still offers 4-year warranties. And Lenovo is quite a bit cheaper than Dell... I recently priced out a W541 against an equivalent M4800... the Lenovo came in around $600 less on a ~$2500 machine, and that was after our Dell discount (that assumed we purchased and installed the RAM ourselves).

It's just all the little stupid things Lenovo does that are infuriating to notebook 'power' users (if there is such a thing .

[don]

They could still offer a few high quality ThinkPads for power user. Heck they have all kinds of use- and senseless options, why not offer JUST 3 QUALITY ThinkPads:

X250P: low volt i7, 12" IPS, 2 RAM slots up to 32 GB, no internal battery crap, 7 row keyboards with LED indicators

T450P: full volt i7, dedicated GPU, 14" FHD IPS, 2 RAM slots up to 32 GB, 2 HDD slots for raid or 1 HDD and optical, no internal battery crap, 7 row keyboards with LED indicators

W550P: full volt i7, dedicated GPU, 15" IPS, 4 RAM slots up to 64 GB, 2 HDD slots for raid, no internal battery crap, 7 row keyboards with LED indicators


I don't give a crap about weight, thickness or price. I paid almost $4,000 for my W700 brick. From the money I made in those 4 years using a laptop that actually helped being RATIONAL and PRODUCTIVE at WORK I could have bought another 100 from the same model. Now I'm sitting here with a slow X220 and none of the current ThinkPads make any sense.

[brchan]

I don't give a crap about weight, thickness or price.

Trouble is, most consumers do. Lenovo is only going to make a product which will sell to the greatest audience. If that means making the device thinner, lighter, sleeker, and less expensive by using cheaper materials, then they will do it. However, there is a big mistake. The thinkpad image and brand was always about productivity and form following function. Consumers who buy consumer grade HPs, Dells, Macs, etc. will not want to buy something that still looks old and boxy (despite what Lenovo has done to the styling), and people who need a laptop for work will not buy thinkpads anymore since they have been watered down.

[hhhd1]

If lenovo combined the good features of the W520 and the W540 in their next W5x0 laptop, they may have pretty awesome device.

- no thermal throttling <--- shouldn't be hard, thin-&-light gaming laptops and mac do it.
- low thikness and weight
- good 3k/FHD/HD displays options, preferably all IPS, with good contrast.
- 7 row keyboard layout WITH island style mechanics