Thinkpads Forum

Hi there.

I have been considering buying a Lenovo laptop for quite some time and decided to do so a month ago. Originally I decided that I wanted to buy a T450s but at the time when I tried to proceed with the purchase at Lenovo's online store they had changed their portfolio to the 6th generation (T460s etc.)
As I didn't like the fact that the T460s didn't have any swappable battery I actually ended up going with the T560, though being quite bigger.

Now I have received it and have been testing it for a while and I must admit that I am quite dissapointed with both the TrackPad, being jerky and unresponsive and the size and weight (though I could have told myself).

I have decided that I will return this T560 unit and then spend some time to decide whether or not to buy another one. This is why I am asking you for some advice.

I have good experience with the T450s and the TrackPad as well, why I am considering to buy the T450s. Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't stock this anymore so I would have to buy it from a subsupplier, which becomes a lot more expensive.

So I started looking into the technical details and found that there were very little difference between the T450s and T460 unit with regard to the size (and weight). I know that the T460 is slightly heavier and has some different port options (HDMI instead of VGA), but other than that: What is the difference?

To be exact I am considering buying either a:

• T450s with the i7-5600U, 12 GB of RAM, 512 GB of SSD, FullHD IPS, 72 WHr rear battery
• T460 with the i7-6600U, 12 GB of RAM, 512 GB of SSD, FullHD IPS, 72 WHr rear battery

Which one would you go for? And please explain the reason for your choice.
Thank you in advance.

Cheers.

Thr T450s is a much higher quality device. It's smaller, thinner and lighter than the T460 and you will definitely enjoy its benefits more deeply than some measly incremental performance increase by Skylake.

T460 generation seems to be having more issues than previous ones. T450s would be my choice if you had to choose between the two.

T450s has a lot of issues as well, read Lenovo forums. CPU whine, dead motherboards ... It is too early to say T460 is better or not. Given Lenovo P50/P70 quality issues I wouldn't expect anything good

T460s is ranked #1 in http://www.notebookcheck.net/Notebookch ... 067.0.html but it does not say much about reliability issues.

Thanks for your comment.
Though my question was mainly of the decision between the T450s and T460, not the T460s.

The T460 that I consider buying will have the same specs (or even higher specs) but at a lower cost compared to a T450s.
I would save around $200 USD chosing the T460.
But then I would lose VGA and the T460 will also be a bit thicker and heavier.

And does any of you know the FRU of the T450s TouchPad vs the T460 touchpad?

brchan wrote:T460 generation seems to be having more issues than previous ones. T450s would be my choice if you had to choose between the two.

Where do you actually have this information from, saying the T460 has more issues than the previous generation?

T450s reviews show little to no PWM flickering, but the new generation of thinkpads do, including the flagship P70 models: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/General-Di ... -p/3283063.

Touchpad implementation is a bit finicky on the new generation, and the keyboards (at least the 's' and carbon models) have switched to lower profile keyboards. Whether or not the actual key travel or quality has been reduced, isn't clear, but they now use 'low profile' trackpoint caps, too. To be fair, T450 generation models also had touchpad issues mostly related to drivers.

Additionally, keep in mind that the 's' models like the T450s were designed to be a more premium and better built product than the non 's' models. They have a CFRP lid and magnesium bottom cover vs GFRP for the T460.

We do not know if the T450s uses PWM or not. Notebookcheck just recently started testing if a panel has PWM or not, so T450s might very well have it, its not like there are reviews specifically stating "T450s doesn´t have PWM".

Ibthink wrote:We do not know if the T450s uses PWM or not. Notebookcheck just recently started testing if a panel has PWM or not, so T450s might very well have it, its not like there are reviews specifically stating "T450s doesn´t have PWM".

According latest reviews, Lenovo is the only vendor that have persistent issues with low PWM frequency used in whole brightness level range, especially with better resolution displays https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/General-Di ... -p/3283063 There must be something wrong in BIOS or drivers.

As usually, Lenovo completely ignores it as the word "quality" has no longer any meaning for them

If somebody with a T450s wants to test for PWM, a method to do so is outlined here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pu ... lation.htm

Puppy wrote:According latest reviews, Lenovo is the only vendor that have persistent issues with low PWM frequency used in whole brightness level range, especially with better resolution displays https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/General-Di ... -p/3283063 There must be something wrong in BIOS or drivers.(

No:
https://translate.google.de/translate?s ... edit-text=
https://translate.google.de/translate?s ... edit-text=
http://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ZBook-1 ... 815.0.html

Its not becoming the truth if you repeat it more often...Lenovo is NOT the only vendor using display panels that are utilizing PWM...

Ibthink wrote:We do not know if the T450s uses PWM or not. Notebookcheck just recently started testing if a panel has PWM or not, so T450s might very well have it, its not like there are reviews specifically stating "T450s doesn´t have PWM".

The notebookcheck review of the T450s has no PWM flickering: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Thi ... 248.0.html

Also, another user on the whirlpool forum apparently confirmed PWM is not used: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2430504#475846

Ibthink wrote:Its not becoming the truth if you repeat it more often...Lenovo is NOT the only vendor using display panels that are utilizing PWM...

It is the only vendor where all new models with better than FHD screen resolution (and some FHD as well) have the low PWM frequency issue. Please check the link to Lenovo forum again.

Instead of a "Thanks, we are investigating the issue and release fix in ..." reply there is typical silence

As always, you are making big presumptions based on really flimsy evidence - there are other ThinkPads with resolutions above 1920x1080 which haven´t been tested yet (P50 with UHD screen, X1 Tablet, T460s with LG WQHD Display), so if you say "all new models", thats just an unproven assertion as of now.

People have compared the T460s LG WQHD vs. the Panasonic WQHD (which was the one Notebookcheck tested), and according to them the LG did not show any sign of PWM.

And on your thread in their forums, well, they usually only react if many people report a problem. However, I am not even sure if you can call this a problem, if this is the way these screens are designed to work.

Ibthink wrote:People have compared the T460s LG WQHD vs. the Panasonic WQHD (which was the one Notebookcheck tested), and according to them the LG did not show any sign of PWM.

Since you can not select the display vendor it is irrelevant. T460s has screen that flickers, that's all. Lenovo should have stopped to use that Panasonic screen, if there was a quality control, but there is none. Cutting costs matters.

Ibthink wrote:And on your thread in their forums, well, they usually only react if many people report a problem. However, I am not even sure if you can call this a problem, if this is the way these screens are designed to work.

Everything that affects usability and makes possible eyestrain using second hand components (or unresolved software bugs) is problem. It is not designed to work like that as the other screen models confirms. Technically there is no reason to use such low frequency, it just makes things ... cheaper. Lenovo delivers crap for premium price, that the real problem.

I am aware the only way of voting is not to buy such crap. But it is sad.