T430 shut down problem

[brucehe]

Here what it does:

A t430 with an 8GB and 2GB RAM, SSD, Intel HD graphics running W7.

Started randomly shutting down, seems to becoming more frequent. Checked Event log and now have at least 6 Event 41 shutdowns.
Tried a new used battery. The unit would run on battery or AC then shutdown Event ID 41 no bug check code. Once it shutdown it needed power button hold down for 30 seconds or so before it would start again.

Did RAM test and it tested fine using Microsoft memory test.

Changed RAM around to different slots and pulled 2GB stick, no change.

So I decided to test with no RAM. After numerous configurations here is what I can replicate.

With the unit on battery power only I get beep codes (no RAM) and unit seems to stay on. However if I plug in the charger while it is on battery it shuts down after a few minutes.
If I run it on AC power only with no battery it will give me beep codes and then shut down a few minutes later.

In either case when it shuts down it takes a reset using the power button hold down for 30 seconds or so to get it to restart. Tried this test with different chargers and same results.

Any ideas what might be happening? Thanks!!

EDIT: the other thing I noticed is the green battery charging light on the top case is not on after it shuts down.

Bruce

[GrifterGuru]

Have you read this >> https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/hel ... hout-clean

Not sure it will help, but it does suggest to check memory (which you have done), power supply, Overheating (Thermal shutdown which could be the issue), Overclocking. It also suggest resetting to factory settings.

Again, not sure it will help, but worth a read.

Further google results can be found here >> https://www.google.com/search?q=windows ... 8&oe=utf-8

[brucehe]

Yes, did a search and did the easy checks. I am running TPFC so I can watch the temperature. It runs very cool 35-50 C.

If there was a way to interpret the Event ID 41 info that would be helpful. At this point it seems to be some kind of charging circuit problem and I assume that is all on the system board.

Bruce

[GrifterGuru]

TPFC? Have you tried stopping TPFC for a while?

Reason I ask is that with two of my laptops (L412 & T420), TPFC had a tendancy to send my computer into sleep mode at random intervals due to "Thermal" highs being reported from sensors and displayed a distinct lack of wanting to wake-up.

As for your issues with 30 second button hold for a restart, I have no idea unfortunately as the T430 I have here (that my Fiancee uses), has not displayed such behaviour.


The HMM (HMM Particular page on Power system checkout) really doees not state too much on the matter unfortunately..

[brucehe]

Here is my guess. The shutdown problems I am seeing with no RAM in the machine seems to tell me it is hardware related. These shutdowns when RAM is reinstalled and running W7 are causing the Kernel Power errors.

What do you all think? Should I just order a new system board?

Bruce

[brucehe]

I know someone out there in Forum land probably knows the answer... I hope. Is it new system board time...

Bruce

[brucehe]

I was looking at the HMM and see there is a DC in sub card. I am wondering if a problem on this board could be causing the power outages?

EDIT: Oops, that DC sub card is only in the T430s.

Bruce

[brucehe]

Just went ahead and ordered a new system board.

Bruce

[GrifterGuru]

Apologies for not responding sooner, mulitple OS installs and Pet baby-sitting intervened.

If your new system-board resolves your issues, then that is great, if not, then I can honestly say it falls to the process of elimination on the removable/replaceable board hardware or accessories (HDD/RAM/CPU/Battery/PSU/WiFi/interchangeable boards if there are any et-al).



Not to teach granny how to suck eggs, or treat you like a N00b, but........

One thing I would advise you do after installing the new system-board, is to boot the system Sans HDD (Without HDD), Immediately enter the BIOS and PERMENANTLY DISABLE "Computrace".

Here are four threads (there are a few more besides!) that should give you a good indication of why you should disable it..

"What to do if Computrace is activated in your TP BIOS"
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=114641&p=823234&hi ... ce#p823234

"Computrace Problems"
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=127235&p=825067&hi ... ce#p825067

"And another reason to get rid of CompuTrace/LoJack!"
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=127171&p=824472&hi ... ce#p824472

"Serious CompuTrace Warning"
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=121913&p=822357&hi ... ce#p822357

There are more threads under a forum search, Here >> search.php?keywords=Computrace&terms=al ... mit=Search

[brucehe]

Thanks, yes in theory the problem I am seeing was identified without any RAM on the board so not much left except system board.

The Computrace info is interesting. The X230T I picked up at our University surplus has a Computrace label on it. I will take a look at the BIOS.

Thanks again,

Bruce

[GrifterGuru]

Without RAM, it leaves the system board, CPU & cooler, sub-cards/hardware.

Have you checked the condition of/ renewed the CPU Thermal paste lately??

All systems that are "new to me" have the thermal paste renewed as a matter of policy. It is a policy that has served me well over time.

Have you updated the BIOS?

Latest BIOS (and all other T430/T430i related software downloads) on the Lenovo Website >> https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/gb/en/prod ... /downloads

Click on the "BIOS/UEFI" item to open the drop down list, pick the BIOS variant by clicking on the "page" icon on the right hand side to open the download page.

[dr_st]

Have you checked the condition of/ renewed the CPU Thermal paste lately??

All systems that are "new to me" have the thermal paste renewed as a matter of policy. It is a policy that has served me well over time.

That's a rather wasteful policy (in terms of the effort), although it may save some hassle down the road. Any temperature-monitoring software typically makes it very clear when the CPU is overheating and shutting down due to that. If it's not obvious, then it's not the cause.

[GrifterGuru]

That's a rather wasteful policy (in terms of the effort), although it may save some hassle down the road. Any temperature-monitoring software typically makes it very clear when the CPU is overheating and shutting down due to that. If it's not obvious, then it's not the cause.

What you call "Wasteful" I call protecting my investment. What is it they say? Prevention is better than cure?

It is obvious to me that you have a penchant for wanting to troll me, So may I suggest you get some professional help for that ailment in order to recover from it?

Other than that, is there anything else you want to say before I tell you to [expletive] off??

[dr_st]

Other than that, is there anything else you want to say before I tell you to [expletive] off??

That I don't really care what you think of me.

You may think it has something to do with you personally, but if you looked up my previous posts on the subject (not that I'm suggesting that you do; that would be a huge waste of your time), you would find that I have a consistent stance that "refreshing thermal paste" is generally a pointless placebo. That comes from an experience of 15 years or so in building, disassembling and maintaining laptops and desktops. There are exceptions, of course, but as I said, they would be obvious.

Not all thermal pastes are created equal - some can probably go a full two decades without ever requiring replacement, and some dry out and lose a lot of their conductance. I have seen both kinds, but even with the "bad" kind - at worst you are looking at ~10C higher temperatures. If, coupled with other factors (like clogged vents, failing fans, extreme hardware stress, or hotter than average ambient temperature), you get to the point that starts triggering thermal throttling/shutdowns, you will know immediately, and at that point you will, of course, do a full maintenance on the cooling system, including changing out the paste.

Doing it proactively? I'm against it; although for you it may be "protecting your investment", the average person, who may not be as skilled as you, is more likely to break something during this "maintenance", or resort to spending money unnecessarily, having someone perform it for him. Not to mention, that to date I have not seen a single modern CPU actually die of overheating - that's exactly what these thermal shutdowns are preventing.

To each his own - but too often I see people recommend "refreshing" the thermal paste before even bothering to inquire that it's related to the problem. That's just bad advice in my book.

[GrifterGuru]

I agree with "not all thermal paste etc etc", but in 18 years of building various form PC's, maintaining laptops et-al, I very quickly arrived at the point where any "New to me" pre-owned machine gets a deep clean and the thermal paste renewal. Heck, even custom builds get new thermal paste every 12 months.

As to my initial comment you should be able see that I asked a two part question. nothing more, nothing less. I made no suggestions of any form whatsoever.

[snip]
Have you checked the condition of/renewed the CPU Thermal paste lately??
[snip]

I then merely stated what I, personally, do. Again, nothing more, nothing less.

As regards thermal paste lasting years. Yes, it probably could and some probably does, but that does not necessarily mean that it should be left for years, because as you yourself state, not all thermal paste is created equal.

[dr_st]

[snip]
Have you checked the condition of/renewed the CPU Thermal paste lately??
[snip]

Well, how do you "check the condition" of the thermal paste, short of disassembling the machine and removing the heatsink? At that point you are already doing the work on which I remarked that I find it, in most cases, a waste of time.

You can, of course, use indirect evidence - if the CPU temperatures are in the expected range (it's not hard to find what the expected range is), then it means the thermal paste is doing fine, and should not be messed with. This is what I generally suggest.

In the end, it's all a matter of whether you believe that periodic proactive thermal paste renewal is something that should be done. Some subscribe to this notion; I don't. That is all.

[TPFanatic]

I acquired a parts T420s that has started shutting down / not powering up / power light turns on, blinks for nanosecond, repeats. It has the broken DC sub card and I wonder if I killed it by plugging the AC into there. I had it sitting on a dock for around 24 hours after a battery reset and discovered these problems when I resumed it from suspend and it shut off.

I have a replacement DC sub card on the way and after replacing it will see if the problems persist... if they do it's T430s motherboard and QHD kit time.

[GrifterGuru]

@ dr_st

You may have misinterpreted what I was getting at, due to the written word not carrying the intended spoken inflection.

[Thinkpad4by3]

To each his own - but too often I see people recommend "refreshing" the thermal paste before even bothering to inquire that it's related to the problem. That's just bad advice in my book.

What you call "Wasteful" I call protecting my investment.

I definitely agree with this. Thermal paste doesn't really wear out, and it still is more or less the same thing, even over long periods of time. As long as the CPU fan isn't removed and reapplied, I don't see how it is an issue. Thermal paste that is 30 years old in Commodore 64's (I believe for the graphics chip if I recall correctly) works just fine and keeps that chip cool, so replacing every few years is quite wasteful. Is it a preventive measure, sure. But this isn't 1982 anymore. In the C64 day, an overheated chip turned into a dead chip. Computers have so much protection circuitry and put out so little heat, it really is a pointless idea. Now if you say did this on a W700 QX9300 or 2.6Ghz P4M A31p where heat is a HUGE factor and could potentially cause problems with the paste over time, that I could see as SOMEWHAT valid, but only every 4-5 years.

I have NEVER had a machine of the several dozen I have overheat due to thermal paste failure. Clogged fans, dust, bad heatsinks, etc, I've seen it all. Never have I had a machine die to thermal paste failure. Never.

I mean I don't just change the head gaskets on my car every 30,000 miles just because its a preventive measure, I do it when the head gasket blows, and in a properly treated motor*, I should never have to replace it.

*=Engines excluding the Cadillac Northstar V8. Those blow head gaskets like candy.

[TPFanatic]

It's my opinion that the stock thermal paste used in Lenovos should be replaced. This is from my experience receiving various ThinkPads which all required new thermal paste to bring temperatures under control. I believe many models with dedicated graphics chips experience premature failure due to the stock paste wearing out on the dGPU die. There is a reason ATI death is so prevalent on T400, T500, and W500 that I suspect it is due to this crappy paste drying up so fast.

Once I've given them a good application of Arctic Silver 5, I'm fine to leave them that way until the next time the heatsink comes off. Sometimes, if I really don't feel like it, I'll lift the heatsink and put it back without changing the paste to no adverse effect on temps.

[GrifterGuru]

At the end of the day, I do what I do for personal reasons.~

The whole start of this conversation is based on misinterpretation of the written word of a question I raised to try to work through a potential cause of an issue.

I do agree about Thermal paste in general, though as I say, I do what I do for personal reasons and that is just my own outlook. As an example my fan/heatpipe-combo units on my laptops and the H/S and fan units of my towers/desktops are removed every 12 months for cleaning given the environments in which my they are used and the fact they run 18 out of 24 hours or more every day (24/7 for my towers/desktops). Again, a personal thing unique to me.

I do, however, see the useful side of this conversation though. Not for me, as I am aware pof all that is stated, but for anyone questioning thermal paste in general.


As for headgaskets, well, that depends on the engine and how it is used/abused. British cars are a tad different. The K-series Rover engine being one example of having H/G issues.....

[Thinkpad4by3]

True point on British cars, should have thought about that and bunched it with the NorthStar motor, but it was the first one I thought of.

Atleast for desktops, I run my unit 24/7 too, but I have a huge A/C sized cooler on mine that would probably still work even without any paste. 6 core 3.7GHz and 52C under full load.

Again, I'm not judging your practice nor telling you what you should do. Your money, your thermal paste, your machines, your problem, and what you do is not my problem.

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

[GrifterGuru]

What else is a forum for, but to openly discuss things in a meaningful, adult, sensible manner? LOL

Everyone is different. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way and did things the exact same way.

[dr_st]

I have a huge A/C sized cooler on mine that would probably still work even without any paste.

Without paste, no cooler would help. The fan helps drive the heat off the heatsink, but without paste, the heat does not get to the heatsink, it just stays on the CPU die.

[GrifterGuru]

I have a huge A/C sized cooler on mine that would probably still work even without any paste.

Without paste, no cooler would help. The fan helps drive the heat off the heatsink, but without paste, the heat does not get to the heatsink, it just stays on the CPU die.

[Thinkpad4by3]

I have a huge A/C sized cooler on mine that would probably still work even without any paste.

Without paste, no cooler would help. The fan helps drive the heat off the heatsink, but without paste, the heat does not get to the heatsink, it just stays on the CPU die.

That was just figurative, referencing to the huge size of the cooler. I know that without paste the CPU would throttle in seconds. (Hey, somebody ran a i7-4770K with only a water cooler block on it and managed to boot it. No pump, no water, nothing was attached to the little water block, though it might have acted as a poor heat sink)

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1000_.jpg
This is the dual 140mm fan, 10 heatpipe, 2lb monster of a heatsink that is cooling my tower. (There is aleast 5 other fans working in conjunction with this one )

[brucehe]

As I mentioned in my earlier response CPU temperatures are fine so I do not believe overheating is causing this problem. When I change the system board thermal paste will be renewed.

I would not dare trying updating the BIOS as the unit must be on AC to do so and as noted the system is unstable on AC and battery. This would risk bricking the unit if power shutdown during the update, a very good possibility in its current state.

Bruce

[brucehe]

I purchased a new system board on Ebay for $40. Pretty easy install. Seems to run fine, no shutdowns or glitches when going between battery and AC. Also tested without RAM or HD and it exhibited none of the previous symptoms.

I am very curious what happened on this board. The T430 is like new, not a spec of dust on or in the fan. The insides of the unit were pristine, even the thermal paste looked fresh. It seems like it had very few hours if any of run time.

Bruce