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What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

X230 and later series specific matters only
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PRAGUEGUY
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What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#1 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:32 pm

dear all, my eyesight is going...I may need a larger screen. I do not want to buy anything newer that x230-. Which were the larger analogies of this model? I remember thay had a model with the suffix "s" for slim, and others...can anybody please guide me? alternatively, any suggestions for a machine second hand, newer than x230, with a decent keyboard, two three years old? thanks a lot.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#2 Post by theterminator93 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:29 pm

12" = X230
14" = T430
15" = T530/W530

The keyboard *30 series to present is largely unchanged, so if you are comfortable with the layout any of the more modern offerings should suit your needs. The 40 series has a terrible clickpad design from the factory, though it can be swapped out for the *50 series traditional button style.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#3 Post by TPFanatic » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm

T430s is slim. Normal T430 is thicker but takes better batteries.

15" slim models of the X230's speed and technology do not exist. T530 and W530 are hugely thick.
lenovo X230 i5 3320m IPS 8GB
lenovo T430 i5 3320m FHD 8GB
lenovo T500 P9700 WUXGA 8GB


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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#4 Post by dr_st » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:03 am

theterminator93 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:29 pm
The keyboard *30 series to present is largely unchanged, so if you are comfortable with the layout any of the more modern offerings should suit your needs.
In fact they tried to fix the shortcomings of the first iteration of the island keyboard, by adding back (tiny) spacings between F4/F5 and F8/F9.

However, maybe he's using the classic keyboard mod? That won't work on anything newer than *30 series indeed.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#5 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:31 am

thanks a lot all Thinkpadders. I use the factory version of the keyboard, I believe it was the first model with Chiclet instead of Island if I remember well...I am actually happy with the keyboard. I can see tons of laptops for cca 500 400 euros on German ebay...I will see.
I have a HP Elite whatever at work, cannot be compared with my x230. SSD disk, 8M ram, its fast, and the screen is incomparably better than HP, even if the HP says its IPS.
The sellers on ebay do not always identify if display is IPS on the T models..any idea if they all come with, or without, IPS? thanks again

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#6 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:37 am

could anybody pls help me with the progression of the models, as they came onto the market? Is it still relatively safe to buy laptops from the time of x230? they are kind of old...thanks

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#7 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:02 am

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_History

I found a history, but it ends with X1 Carbon Jan 2014
we are now in 2018 almost...
anybody has any continuation of the list into today? I guess second hand prices will start steeply rising after x230
thaks

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#8 Post by Hurstbridge » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:42 am

The first answer you got is pretty good.
The t430 is the 14" variant of the x230. The t440 is then the equivelant to the x240, t450/x250, etc.

I am not sure of what you mean with "safe". In terms of your needs, warranty, etc?
For my heavy office use, I cannot see why I would need a newer laptop than my x230. With an i7-3520m, 16gb ram and a Samsung 850 SSD, this machine should cover my needs for a long time forward.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#9 Post by ac427 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm

Was the X220's keyboard seen as better than the X230 then ?

I though it all went downhill with the X240. The spec was ok but the clickpad was terrible and the keyboard was slightly worse then the X230's keyboard.

Have the subsequent X250, X260 and X270 reverted to the X230 keyboard type ?

@OP As mentioned a T430 or T530 would be the larger brother of the X230. You have to be careful though or you'll end up with the X230 resolution of 1366x768.

The T430 and T530 are available in higher resolutions.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#10 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:31 pm

The new chiclets are as good as 6 rows will get. They have separated function rows but lack 7th row, integrated numpad, dedicated volume and mute buttons, and linear PgUp/Down.

**30 gen chiclet was done purely stylistically. It did not decrease any space or increase touchpad size on its models, and for that reason the change is completely stupid. But as far as keyboards go they are fine. The function row is unfortunately amalgamated.
lenovo X230 i5 3320m IPS 8GB
lenovo T430 i5 3320m FHD 8GB
lenovo T500 P9700 WUXGA 8GB


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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#11 Post by ac427 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 pm

So the X220 keyboard was the greatest and sadly missed ?

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#12 Post by ZaZ » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 am

ac427 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 pm
So the X220 keyboard was the greatest and sadly missed ?
That's subjective of course. I think my favorite ThinkPad keyboard was my 14" R60, but the screen on it was terrible, so you can't have it all I guess.

A lot of long time ThinkPadders miss the old school keyboard. Not because it was a chiclet keyboard or the typing experience, but because they changed the layout, which was ingrained in their brains. I type less than 35WPM and never used many shortcuts, so it was all good for me.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#13 Post by dr_st » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:35 am

ZaZ wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 am
A lot of long time ThinkPadders miss the old school keyboard. Not because it was a chiclet keyboard or the typing experience, but because they changed the layout, which was ingrained in their brains. I type less than 35WPM and never used many shortcuts, so it was all good for me.
As I thought about it more, and as I learned from collective experience of people from almost 6 years after Thinkpad switch to the 6-row layout, it's not only that the layout was ingrained in their brains. The 7-row layout really is superior. The keys are better separated, easier to find, and there are more of them. It' not just a matter of getting used to - even after all this time, people who "got used" to the 6-row, still prefer the 7-row, if they care.

What may be true, is that people who never get into really advanced keyboard usage, will not have a preference one way or the other. You may say that it's because they have no layout at all ingrained in their brains. That's the majority of people, and that's why customers haven't lashed out at Lenovo as much as they did over the stupid clickpad. Because really, all the other manufacturers have keyboard layouts that are even worse. If enough people cared, the situation would not be allowed to get to this point to begin with.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#14 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:46 am

The latest old-style 7-row keyboard can be found on the 14" T25 with FHD screen.
But by now it's (almost?) completely sold out, but you might get lucky (if you can afford it).
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#15 Post by ThinkRob » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:28 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:46 am
The latest old-style 7-row keyboard can be found on the 14" T25 with FHD screen.
But by now it's (almost?) completely sold out, but you might get lucky (if you can afford it).
A few crop up on eBay with some regularity. Maybe they'll *not* be overpriced now that it's actually out in the wild...

Oh, who am I kidding. It's eBay. They're still gonna have crack-pipe pricing. :evil:
What may be true, is that people who never get into really advanced keyboard usage, will not have a preference one way or the other. You may say that it's because they have no layout at all ingrained in their brains.
I disagree with this, at least a bit. I've been typing (well) for a good couple decades (and poorly for even longer), and I'm not sure I have a strong preference anymore.

I mean, I hate poor key *feel* (so... no new MacBooks!) but layout? Psh. I can deal with anything not totally insane.

I credit this to having bounced around from keyboard to keyboard for pretty much ever. 755c -> Apple Keyboard (the "space saver one" from the IIci era) -> iBook -> Model M -> ThinkPad (c 2008-2012) -> Apple Keyboard (same) -> ThinkPad 6-row 50% / Dell AT101W 50% -> ThinkPad SpaceSaver (T4x style) -> Model M. At this point layout is just kinda "whatever". Two week adjustment period if that.

So I think layout preference is a user-by-user thing. Some people -- for whatever reason -- have developed a strong preference for a given layout. Others are "mutts" like myself who can deal with anything that doesn't make boneheaded mistakes (like putting the frequently used keys in impossible places). There's no real absolute right and wrong here, just right/wrong for a given user.

That said, I do miss the *sound* of some of the older 'boards. Not the feel -- that's fine, but not exemplary -- but the sound. For whatever reason the older boards (from the *30 era and again from the *60) era just make me feel like I'm getting stuff done. I think it's probably psychological or whatever, since I was using those two board styles during [relatively] productive periods of my life, but still...
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#16 Post by dr_st » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:18 am

ThinkRob wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:28 pm
I disagree with this, at least a bit. I've been typing (well) for a good couple decades (and poorly for even longer), and I'm not sure I have a strong preference anymore.
Typing, even typing well, is not necessarily "advanced keyboard usage". That's one of the fallacies in keyboard reviews. People only measure "words per minute" in a strictly synthetic typing test. Such a test reflects things like keyboard feel, key travel, etc, but it does not reflect intricacies of the layout, since the letter/number keys used during raw typing are never messed with.

I imagine that what you meant to say is that you've been using keyboard for more than just typing, e.g., advanced keyboard shortcuts, navigation, special functions used extensively during code developing / debugging, etc, and you still don't care as much about the layout. This may be true, but notice that it's not really what I was talking about. I basically claim two things:
  1. People who don't do advanced keyboard things don't care about the layout. That does not mean that everyone who does advanced things cares.
  2. People who care about layout find the 7-row strictly superior. You will generally not find people who care, and find the 6-row superior.
ThinkRob wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:28 pm
So I think layout preference is a user-by-user thing. Some people -- for whatever reason -- have developed a strong preference for a given layout. Others are "mutts" like myself who can deal with anything that doesn't make boneheaded mistakes (like putting the frequently used keys in impossible places). There's no real absolute right and wrong here, just right/wrong for a given user.
"Frequently used keys" can vary between users. Heck, some people still don't understand why we need a Windows key, or Insert, on the keyboard. However, regardless of which specific keys you need more often, the 7-row layout still is superior, for the things I mentioned above:
  • Better separation between key groups (Esc/F1; F4/F5; F8/F9; F12/Delete). It makes them easier to find by feel, which means you can do it faster without looking and you can minimize mistypes. The 6-row layout has tiny and almost useless gaps that were added as a lame "kludge" after the first generation **30 keyboard that did not have them + it still does not separate Esc/F1 and does not separate F12 and the keys to its right.
  • Esc/Del are bigger in a meaningful way. On the 6-row they are not bigger in a meaningful way, they don't feel different. Louis talks a lot about this in his videos, and explains it well.
  • There are more keys overall, so more flexibility. No matter how frequently you need it, hitting Ctrl+Pause for break is always easier than Ctrl+Fn+P; if you like PgUp/PgDn next to the arrow keys - you could change the back/forward keys on the 7-row to act as PgUp/PgDn, but if you like them on top, there is nothing you can do to the 6-row to get them. ASOASF.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#17 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:29 am

My only KB interest is that it has a UK/ISO layout with the big Enter key and no numpad/tenkey.
Even though I've always been a programmer/analyst, I have typed with only 2 fingers for my whole life.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#18 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 am

thanks again an awful lot..
I am considering even larger monster, for the home, due to bad eyesight and need to mess with large excel tables, and copying pdf stuf into them (summaries of new laws etc. )
so I am considering even 17 inch, or 15...
from the era of the x230, can you suggest some large monster ...I wan tto buy older, so its cheaper.
When I bought my second backup x230 from German ebay there were literally dozens, cheapely.
Also there are modern 17 inch version, absolutely nothing to do with a Thinkpad...but |i dont want to spend a million,
what are their drawbacks? (sorry to desecrate the x230 thread)
I found this ...as new...https://www.lenovoshop.cz/lenovo-thinkp ... 79964.html

and a cheapo one, nothing to do with a TP whatsoever
how about it? thanks
http://www.lenovoonline.cz/notebooky/le ... erny/12910

Any suggestions for an older large screen workstation? office work, no games...thanks a lot to all.

I did not have yet time to compare the DPI indicators of the above machines...and I love IPS screens. thx.


Can I understand from the above learned dispute that there are actually buyable notebooks after x230? I had thought the immediate followers were terribble, suffering from weird keyboards, thinner bodies emulating Macbook Air, etc..generally losing the Thinkpad fee.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#19 Post by dr_st » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:46 am

Well, you kind of need to make up your mind. Either you want an older Thinkpad (to pay less) or you want a new laptop (maybe not a Thinkpad), which will cost more, but will have the benefits of modern hardware.

As was said, the immediate 15" siblings of the X230 are the T530/W530. There was no 17" model in that generation. The Thinkpad line had a long gap in 17" between the W701 (contemporary of the X201) and the P70 which is linked in your post.
PRAGUEGUY wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 am
Can I understand from the above learned dispute that there are actually buyable notebooks after x230? I had thought the immediate followers were terribble, suffering from weird keyboards, thinner bodies emulating Macbook Air, etc..generally losing the Thinkpad feel.
Well, as far as keyboard goes, the one on your X230 is almost as bad as it gets. Overall there were few changes to the keyboard since then:
  • Gaps added between function key blocks - that's good (although not very meaningful as they are tiny)
  • 12" models have the Insert and End keys shared (need to use Fn to get the other; that's bad, but only affects 12" Thinkpads, not the large ones you are considering.
  • The X1 Carbon second generation had a terrible experimental keyboard with 'soft keys' for the top row and a weird layout. It was so bad that it was immediately discontinued.
  • The 15" and larger models got the numpad to the right of the keyboard. Generally I find it a good thing, because more keys = better, but some dislike the fact that it makes the trackpoint/touchpad off-center.
"Thinner bodies emulating Macbook Air" is generally true of the X1 Carbon series; however all laptops have been getting thinner, and Thinkpads too. I can't say it's bad, as it did not seem to make them less durable. The 15" and 17" P-series workstations are still pretty thick and beefy.
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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#20 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 am

this laptop looks great...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 308.0.html

the specs are posted below...
the item reviewed in notebookchecks cost 3400 EUR, I have a discount deal at 1300 EUR exclusive of vat..unbelievable.
As soon as I bought it it disappeared from the web store.
I can have it for 1 274EUR, EQUIVALENT TO
1 561 USD
brand new, reputable seller, 3 years onsite warranty...cant wait.
let you know of impressions.

The review talks about some issues related to the WWAN card...mobile 4g internet ...but hope it will be ok, anyway it would not be a deal breaker for me



xxxxxxxxx copy internet issue xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Our review unit was not equipped with an LTE modem, but the necessary antennas are already integrated and just have to be attached to the optional M.2 module (Sierra Wireless EM7455). The micro-SIM slot is inside the battery tray.

Update 02/25/2016: We now received a statement from Lenovo regarding the optional LTE module:

"The current ThinkPad P50 and ThinkPad P70 models are unfortunately NOT "WWAN (LTE) READY" - even though some models are already equipped with the necessary antennas. From today's perspective, there will probably be no WWAN (LTE) upgrade-option for the ThinkPad P50 and ThinkPad P70, respectively.

Reason: The WWAN (LTE) module runs at a frequency of 2133 MHz - analog to to the Skylake CPU in combination with DDR4-RAM @ 2133 MHz. This creates "interferences", which means superposition when waves come together.

ThinkPad P50|70 with integrated WWAN (ex-works)
- configurable starting in April in CRM | Flex Config
- shipping in April"






xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx SPECS XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Produkt:ThinkPad P70
Part number: 20ER000BMC
Model type: 20ER000B
Procesor: Intel® Core™ i7-6700HQ (4 cores, 2.60GHz, 6MB cache)
Paměť/volný slot: 8GB (1x8GB), PC4-17000, 2133MHz DDR4 SODIMM, non-ECC, 4 sloty na MB, 64GB max
Harddisk: 256GB SATA 6.0Gb/s, Opal2
Optická mechanika: DVD±RW
Grafika: Intel HD Graphics 530 + NVIDIA Quadro. M600M, 2GB
Displej: 17.3" FHD (1920x1080) matný, IPS, LED podsvícení + webkamera HD720p
Audio: HD Audio, Realtek® ALC3268 codec, Dolby. Home Theater. v4, 2x 2W repro
Polohovací zařízení: trackpoint + touchpad
Numerická klávesnice: ano
Podsvicena klavesnice: ano
Čtečka otisku prstů: ano
Komunikace: bluetooth 4.2, WWAN Capable (osazeny antény, nutno pouze dokoupit 4G modem)
Síť: WiFi tel Dual Band Wireless-AC 8260, 2x2, Gigabit Ethernet
Porty: dock port konektor, čtečka karet 4v1 (MMC, SD, SDHC, SDXC), 4x USB 3,0 (jeden stále napájený), 2x USB/Thunderbolt 3, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, ethernet RJ45, kombinovaný jack sluchátka/mikrofon, čtečka SmartCard, ExpressCard/34
Operační systém: Licence Microsoft Windows 10 Professional, předinstalováno Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64bit / Možnost výběru jazykové verze při prvním spuštění Win mezi anglickou a českou verzí (Recovery DVD Win10PRO je možné získat na webu (www.lenovoservices.cz/servis-a-sluzby/l ... um-support)
Ostatní: Pantone. color calibrator by X-Rite.
Baterie: 8 Cell (96Wh)
Výdrž baterie: až 10 hodin
Adaptér: 170W
Hmotnost : 3,3kg
Rozměry: 416mm x 275.5mm x 29.9-34.2mm
Záruka NT: 3 roky on-site
Záruka baterie: 1 rok

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#21 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:55 am

Update.
would be too good to be true, no WWAN lte 4g connectivity.
apparently the anntennas are not there.
I do not bother too much...I can tether with mobile, It is a big machine I do not expect to use it a lot away from a good wifi
signal.
- but, can those antennas be tweaked in there (modded, so as I can use wwan 4g card ) in your opinion?
Anybody has any idea how many HDD disks can go in this monster? thanks...


the review talks of many.

http://psref.lenovo.com/Detail/ThinkPad ... 000B%2B%2B

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#22 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:02 am

15" = T530
what would be the minimum screen resolution for this 15 inch laptop?
Do they also exist with IPS displays? I am browsing through ebay...thanks.
to be used for office work.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#23 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:50 am

For T530/W530:
- 15.6" HD (1366x768) LED backlight,
- 15.6" HD+ (1600x900) LED backlight
- 15.6" Full HD (1920x1080) LED backlight

If FHD you'll want a B156HW01 v4 screen, at least as good as IPS (which is NOT available).

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#24 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:05 am

found this one
the display you recommend, seems to exist in shiny and matte...I have always gone for matte...

https://www.notebook-display.cz/cz-deta ... gKlc_D_BwE

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#25 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:35 am

v4 = matte
v7 = glossy

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#26 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:48 am

Thanks...I just wonder how to extract the info about the display panel from an ebay seller. This is never in the specs advertised by sellers. Even the model number does not help, as the same model cames with various display panels...I can see my own display panel when I run the software

https://www.gtopala.com/

great piece of software. The panel id is under Monitor section...I wonder maybe if I get a cheaper model, I can get a new display panel for the difference in price...the sellers are clueless as to the display panel, i look mainly at German sellers and they seem to be selling in bulk and have zero idea about what they are actually selling.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#27 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 pm

Another small question...

15" = T530/W530
What is the difference between T and W? I would think W would be more like gaming or higher performance...any experience? thanks

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#28 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:39 pm

W530 typically comes with a better discrete NVidia graphics and possibly supports the extreme edition CPUs which I don't think you should get over something like i7-3720qm, as well as a possibly better cooling solution. And if you buy the whole W530 instead of just a mobo inside a T530, it is actually thicker.
_________________________________
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
2xT43 14.1" 2.26 SXGA+ 2gb 1*fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
Flexview UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#29 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:42 am

Most W530 (but not all !!!) can also come with 4 RAM slots (2 top, 2 bottom) for 4x8=32GB RAM.
T530 only has 2 slots.

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Re: What is the 14 inch, and 15.x inch sibling of x230?

#30 Post by PRAGUEGUY » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:37 pm

thanks to all..I will not need the W version.

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