An X230 with 1920x1080 resolution - pipe dream?

[tbessie]

Hey folks...

I've used exclusively Thinkpads as my laptop of choice for years. But for the first time, I've had to go elsewhere for a laptop. I needed a good, light travel laptop that I could do my work on (software development). The current project absolutely requires a high resolution screen (1080p or better), but I think in the T and X series, only the T530 has that.

Has anyone ever heard any rumors that a 1080p X series will be produced? I was hoping the X230 would have that, but they're still sticking with 720p, which just isn't big enough for my work.

I ended up getting the new Sony Vaio Z3 (Z1311). Great little machine, overpriced, no trackpoint, weird Sony way of dealing with things.

I hate losing the trackpoint especially - trackpads just are not easy to work with when you're having to move the cursor around as much as you do in development.

- Tim

[elray]

Considering Asus is delivering an 11.6" 1080p Zenbook, and Intel's Retina-display advisory,
one would assume Beijing is not completely asleep at the wheel.

Unfortunately, this still won't address the 4:3 issue.

[tbessie]

Considering Asus is delivering an 11.6" 1080p Zenbook, and Intel's Retina-display advisory,
one would assume Beijing is not completely asleep at the wheel.

Unfortunately, this still won't address the 4:3 issue.

Do you mean the lack of 4:3 displays out in the market? I am about to give someone my old X40, since it is dog-slow for anything now. I'm amazed I ever developed big apps on it... either it's slowed down, or my standards have changed.

- Tim

[loyukfai]

A pipe dream? Think so.

Perhaps with the X240...

That being said, I still think that with Windows, such PPI is detrimental to the eyesight, long term.

Cheers.

[tbessie]

A pipe dream? Think so.

Perhaps with the X240...

That being said, I still think that with Windows, such PPI is detrimental to the eyesight, long term.

Cheers.

Well, I won't be getting new laptop until Haswell anyway, so perhaps then...

My eyes are getting older and it's getting harder to see such fine detail, but it still works for me. I will be sad when I need to blow things up considerably to see them. On the laptop I got, it's set to 125%, which seems to be okay.

- Tim

[pianowizard]

I hate losing the trackpoint especially - trackpads just are not easy to work with when you're having to move the cursor around as much as you do in development.

Have you maximized the speed of the mouse pointer? If not, try that. Ever since I learned that trick (plus spending about 3 months learning to master the touchpad), I have preferred the touchpad over the trackpoint. I feel sorry for those who are holding on to their Thinkpads simply because they don't know how to use touchpads properly.

[tbessie]

Have you maximized the speed of the mouse pointer? If not, try that. Ever since I learned that trick (plus spending about 3 months learning to master the touchpad), I have preferred the touchpad over the trackpoint. I feel sorry for those who are holding on to their Thinkpads simply because they don't know how to use touchpads properly.

I've definitely tweaked the trackpad settings to be as close to the way I like it as I can (there are a lot of new ones dealing with gestures that I never had before, or at least didn't notice because I was using the trackpoint ).

I still feel using the trackpad is less accurate; partially because I'm used to the trackpoint, I'm sure, but it also just feels less accurate to me in general, no matter my ability.

Also, it requires I move my fingers from the home row, which the trackpoint doesn't require. I'm much more productive when my hands can stay on the keyboard, instead of one hand having to move to the trackpad constantly (or an attached mouse); I do a lot of work jumping between text windows (Vim, Eclipse, various utilities), and need to click buttons or scroll in the middle of it, so moving my hands off the keyboard for each of these gets in the way a bit.

So for me, it's not a question of "proper use of the trackpad", but that I really do prefer the trackpoint. 's'all.

Some other companies have pointing sticks on their laptops, but I've found the Thinkpad implementation works best for me, having tried many of the others.

- Tim

[pianowizard]

I've definitely tweaked the trackpad settings to be as close to the way I like it as I can

But did you maximize the speed as I recommended? That's essential. At first you might find the pointer moves too fast, but you would get used to it eventually.

I still feel using the trackpad is less accurate; partially because I'm used to the trackpoint, I'm sure, but it also just feels less accurate to me in general, no matter my ability.

For me it's the other way around. I am 100% accurate with the touchpad, but often overshoot with the trackpoint. I admit it's possible that some people simply can never master the touchpad no matter how hard they try. On the other hand, I have encountered lots of people who bash the touchpad even though they have never tried to learn it well.

I do a lot of work jumping between text windows (Vim, Eclipse, various utilities), and need to click buttons or scroll in the middle of it, so moving my hands off the keyboard for each of these gets in the way a bit.

In theory, for laptops that have the touchpad right below the spacebar, it should be possible to use just the thumb to control the touchpad, so that the other nine fingers can stay on the keyboard. This would require a lot of practice though, and this approach probably would never work on a Thinkpad because the trackpoint mouse buttons separate the touchpad a bit too far from the spacebar.

Some other companies have pointing sticks on their laptops, but I've found the Thinkpad implementation works best for me, having tried many of the others.

I have found the main difference to be the rubber cap itself, not the underlying mechanisms. Some HP Business laptops can use Thinkpad caps really well.

[loyukfai]

Well, I won't be getting new laptop until Haswell anyway, so perhaps then...

My eyes are getting older and it's getting harder to see such fine detail, but it still works for me. I will be sad when I need to blow things up considerably to see them. On the laptop I got, it's set to 125%, which seems to be okay.

- Tim

Running Windows at non-native DPI is a solution I'd like to avoid. It works okay, but the quirks here and there throw me off.

Apple has done a good job, IMO, with regard to the implementation of the Retina Macbooks, but then it's simpler when the new res is 2x of the old one, and one controls both the software and hardware.

Cheers.

[tbessie]

Running Windows at non-native DPI is a solution I'd like to avoid. It works okay, but the quirks here and there throw me off.

Apple has done a good job, IMO, with regard to the implementation of the Retina Macbooks, but then it's simpler when the new res is 2x of the old one, and one controls both the software and hardware.

Cheers.

Yes, scaling can sometimes indeed suck.

I took a look at the new MacBooks yesterday - very nice; if only they made a 13" one with the newer specs!

- Tim

[loyukfai]

You do know there're rumours in the pipe that a 13" retina model is coming out later this year right?

Cheers.

[tbessie]

You do know there're rumours in the pipe that a 13" retina model is coming out later this year right?

Cheers.

Nope, hadn't heard that. Anyway, already got the Sony - I'd still love Lenovo to make a high-end X series like that. I continue to hold out hope.

- Tim

[bobodod]

A ThinkPad X230 2325-F87 is showing up on distributor and some retailer's websites. It's listed as "CompuCom Only," which isn't a criteria I'm familiar with. Assuming this means sales are exclusive to the IT provider named CompuCom, I guess I'll have to make a friend there.

specs

• Core i7 i7-2960XM Extreme Edition 2.7GHz quad core with 8MB L3
• 1900x1080 TFT
• 16GB RAM
• 320GB HDD [a plus in my book, because it adds minimal cost to the package and I'll be upgrading to an SSD anyway]
• NVIDIA Quadro 2000M with 2GB

[csioucs]

All of us dreamers of foregone days of HighRes Screens from the IBM-era, with A/R/TXXp line with the Graal of QXGA of R50p keep hunting and wishthink chimeras/fata morgana's where real.

If they would pull off such a machine they would brag loud, like they brag about the current X1's 1600x900, the "awesome" 14" resolution (back to some normalcy - more like 'pant, pant' we managed to get back to some of the expectations) that's still far from the (W)SXGA+ or WUXGA that were common not long ago as vertical resolution is concerned.

So I think that's most likely a typo or a prank. Where would all that heat go? Convert to energy and light a bulb or heat some water for tea in winter (sorry couldn't resist)

Until then if Resolution in a small package is looked for one should look elsewhere as Thinkpad belongs to a house that is catering for efficiency in terms of sales, and uniform(ist?) development - no longer leading innovation - that's to expensive...

(I am really curious if the X300 would have appeared lest for the MBAir, and if the X1 series would have developed if not for the ultrabook race, thank Intel....what we hope is for the Retina standard to rub off to lenovo as well...and pay a team to hack the keyboard so that we can have our laptops back)

Admin edit: Senseless formatting removed

[pianowizard]

Until then if Resolution in a small package is looked for one should look elsewhere as Thinkpad belongs to a house that is catering for efficiency in terms of sales, and uniform(ist?) development

While I agree Lenovo isn't at the cutting edge as far as screen resolution is concerned, Dell Business and HP Business are actually slightly worse (i.e. fewer models have HD+ or FHD), and Toshiba is much worse -- someone over on NotebookReview pointed out that other than the Qosmio line, all of Toshiba's other laptop models were 1366x768 until very recently. And Acer seems just as bad as Toshiba.

IMO, Retina resolutions would be way too much for Windows laptops because Windows still can't scale satisfactorily like Mac OS. My optimal pixel density is around 155 DPI, which the X1 Carbon would achieve if it were 1920x1080. (To be exact, HD on 14.0" would give 157.35 DPI.)

[Puppy]

Windows laptops because Windows still can't scale satisfactorily like Mac OS.

What exact difference ? Both text scaling produces blurry unreadable fonts with a green glow for black text on white background. No wonder, there is no room for a magic unless there will be at least best-printer-like display density.

[csioucs]

While I agree Lenovo isn't at the cutting edge as far as screen resolution is concerned, Dell Business and HP Business are actually slightly worse (i.e. fewer models have HD+ or FHD), and Toshiba is much worse -- someone over on NotebookReview pointed out that other than the Qosmio line, all of Toshiba's other laptop models were 1366x768 until very recently. And Acer seems just as bad as Toshiba.

IMO, Retina resolutions would be way too much for Windows laptops because Windows still can't scale satisfactorily like Mac OS. My optimal pixel density is around 155 DPI, which the X1 Carbon would achieve if it were 1920x1080. (To be exact, HD on 14.0" would give 157.35 DPI.)

I concur. I may have been a bit harsh if I think down the line that starts with Dell, HP and ends with Acer and Toshiba. If I look "up" the other line like with Sony, Asus, Apple and Samsung (in almost no particular order) I see more courageous innovation, but, alas, that comes at a cost, and selling most is sometimes to dear a goal, thus innovation is balanced - like we have the current X1 - Where it not for the unspeakable placement of the (and 6 rows) keys to some indeed it might have been a proof of being the balance of the cutting edge, summa cum laude, as it stands for me it's somewhere btw cum laude and magna (yes I've typed on that keyboard, and keytravel is not bad, actually slightly better than the X220 for instance, but the key (re)arrangement for me is beyond understanding and distance btw the keys is too wide and I don't have small hands - previous versions were perfect here....

Now I would read the Quest for perfect while looking at the current generation... and I'd look at the pipe dream? It's to extreme to the current Thinkpad trend, but dreaming...what would we do without it?

Admin Edit: More senseless formatting removed

[loyukfai]

What exact difference ? Both text scaling produces blurry unreadable fonts with a green glow for black text on white background. No wonder, there is no room for a magic unless there will be at least best-printer-like display density.

The way the "retina" macbooks scale, AFAIK, only leaves you blurry text and graphics at most.

The way windows currently scale, sometimes leaves you screen components that are out of place, in addition to the blurry text and graphics.

Cheers.

[csioucs]

@Admin: I shall humbly remember.

On the pipe-dream: so proper scaling would be the usability prerequisite for HighRes on smaller sized screens.

Thus Intel is the one the re-speak the "light" to PC crowd in terms of Retina as they did with the Ultrabooks. Perhaps then we will see a X series with higher resolution - I would go out on a limb and anticipate that to happen around the X260 era (3 cycles from now if, and only if, Intel manages the push, and if the others accept and follow through; also Windows 8 would either have had received it's service pack(s)/or the next iterations would have been adapted to the hardware).

[khtse]

Get the Asus ultrabook. You probably won't see such high res screen on the X-series until high-res display become real mainstream, which is perhaps at least a year or two away.

[ZaZ]

I hope not. I like my HD screen.

[loyukfai]

I would go out on a limb and anticipate that to happen around the X260 era (3 cycles from now if, and only if, Intel manages the push, and if the others accept and follow through; also Windows 8 would either have had received it's service pack(s)/or the next iterations would have been adapted to the hardware).

3 cycles...? I *hope* not. : )

OTOH, in 3-year, Win9 may have been released already to get rid of the bad reputation Win8 garnered. (sorry, I gave it a try and am quite unimpressed by the Start Screen).

Cheers.

[Puppy]

The way windows currently scale, sometimes leaves you screen components that are out of place, in addition to the blurry text and graphics.

I see. That's problem of clueless software developers that they are not able to read and understand the Windows API documentation to write applications properly. It is not problem of Windows itself.

[loyukfai]

It's in my opinions that the responsibility lies in both the 3rd party developers and Microsoft, when you have a system that doesn't (go to the length to) discourage bad behaviour, the designer of the system shouldn't be able to simply wash its hands and call it a day.

And some software from Microsoft itself has such kind of problems as well. Granted, MS is a large company, but when you cannot enforce proper coding techniques among yourself, it's difficult to lay the blame onto the others.

At the same time, it's also very much a historical problem, the existing Windows scaling mechanism is not designed for the high-res screens which started to appear in mass market devices in one or two years before. But MS, IMO, could have foreseen this when it started developing Win8 (or during the development).

So, you may say it's not a problem of Windows, I guess, just like the kid who shot himself with the unlocked gun in the house is not a problem of the parents...?

Cheers.

[Puppy]

the responsibility lies in both the 3rd party developers and Microsoft, when you have a system that doesn't (go to the length to) discourage bad behaviour, the designer of the system shouldn't be able to simply wash its hands and call it a day.

The system design should not dictate any particular behavior, it should support to implement it. No one use the low-level Windows API directly, there are tons (unfortunately) of high-level visual frameworks for Windows with various quality (MFC, VCL, vxWidgets, Qt, XUL, WinForms, WPF). Some of them were designed for Windows 3.1 so its ability to absorb some new features like scaling is not ideal.

I've seen a lot of poorly written (framework) code and most of the time the developer's repsonse it "It is not my fault, that's XY fault". And yes, when going deeply in the code, in 99.9% cases it was always the developer's bug. UI Application behavior with scaling was part of QA ten years ago already. Again, it is always the application developer or QA responsibility to do the test cases.

For example WinForms supports Automatic Scaling but some developers want to explicitely disable it. Whose fault is that such application does not work correctly ?

[loyukfai]

Within this context, I don't think the system designer should "dictate" a particular behaviour either, unless it's a very important issue, that's why I used the word "discourage".

As I've also noted in the previous reply, I'm aware that it's a historical issue. Scaling is something easier said then done.

I've also explained previously, perhaps in this or another thread (sorry, no time to look for it), the reason why Apple did it better was that it controls both the hardware and software (the OS), and that an exactly 2x increase in horizontal/vertical resolutions make the problem easier to deal with.

Your point and tone is taken. I wonder how you come up with the 99.9% figure though.

Cheers.

[Puppy]

I wonder how you come up with the 99.9% figure though.

By 15 years experience in Windows software development and training As for the legacy issues, I hope that Windows 8 (at least the ARM edition) will break it.

[bill bolton]

I wonder how you come up with the 99.9% figure though.

Its just made up......

[twistero]

Its just made up......

85.4% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[Cigarguy]

85.4% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I disagree I think it's more like 99.89%.

Having said that personal experience and trend can be a valuable thing. 99.9% is a good indicator of what a particular poster think of something. About 24.5% clearer than 85.4%.