High-resolution screen with Windows 8 scaling

[StevenD]

Hi, Can anyone comment on what the W540 looks like with the very-high-resolution screen, when Windows 8 UI scaling is used to make things look larger. For example, in some programs, like Photoshop, icons and program elements might look far too small if the screen isn't scaled larger.

I'd like to get the IPS screen, but I'm concerned about things being too small to use.

Thanks.

[600X]

No matter what, I'd get the IPS screen anyway because the FHD display doesn't even compare quality-wise. Unlike the early T530/W530's, lenovo only offers low quality FHD screens in their current 15 inch models.

That being said, it is possible to use the 3k IPS without any scaling, but honestly, I don't recommend doing so, unless you want to spoil your eyes. While Windows itself is more than capable of doing some decent scaling, as are most browsers, most 3rd party programs still don't scale properly, including popular programs like Skype and basically all Adobe products. The symptoms can range from blurry text to cut-off windows or simply the lack of any scaling at all.

In time software vendors will have to offer proper scaling support since high DPI displays will become standard, but it might take a while until we get there.

[StevenD]

Thanks, Aurora. I'm using a T60p with an IPS screen. I've had it for about six years. I used to upgrade every year or so, but haven't been able to since IBM went to the bad screens after the T60p. And I haven't been able to find a competitor's unit that I like better.

But this unit is getting old, with its 333MHz memory, running Windows XP, and other old hardware. Now that there's an IPS out there I might have to bite the bullet, but I wanted some info on how Windows scales things. If it's nice IPS, but still mostly aggravating and unusable, I might have to continue to nurse this unit along, although there's really no hope that Lenovo will go back to the really good keyboards and screens.

--Steve

[ajkula66]

No matter what, I'd get the IPS screen anyway because the FHD display doesn't even compare quality-wise. Unlike the early T530/W530's, lenovo only offers low quality FHD screens in their current 15 inch models.

Agreed.

That being said, it is possible to use the 3k IPS without any scaling, but honestly, I don't recommend doing so, unless you want to spoil your eyes. While Windows itself is more than capable of doing some decent scaling, as are most browsers, most 3rd party programs still don't scale properly, including popular programs like Skype and basically all Adobe products. The symptoms can range from blurry text to cut-off windows or simply the lack of any scaling at all.

I'd argue that OSX is still vastly superior to Windows in the respect of scaling, and definitely agree that 3K panel is tough to use in its native resolution even if one has a 20/20 vision.

To OP:

I'd strongly suggest testing the new keyboard/trackpoint setup in person before purchasing a *40 series unit. The change is drastic enough to warrant a "hands-on" approach...

If you end up liking the aforementioned changes, T440p with 14" FHD IPS panel might be a more palatable solution when it comes to resolution.

My $0.02 only...

[StevenD]

Hi, AJKula,

Where does one get the opportunity to put his hands on a W-series Lenovo? I understand there's a problem with the loss of the dedicated trackpoint buttons, and I'd love to see what these units are like, but I'm here in Omaha, and I've never seen a place that sells these units. Even the Best Buy here, which has many Lenovo models, has no models at all with a trackpoint.

--Steve

[ajkula66]

Where does one get the opportunity to put his hands on a W-series Lenovo?

No clue since I've never been to your neck of the woods...and can very well imagine that it might not be possible at all.

If a business trip sends you to California or New York...then it might be an easier task.

[pianowizard]

Sounds like none of you guys have actually tried Windows 8 UI scaling, so I just gave it a try. Windows itself looked okay, but PDF files opened in Foxit Reader 4.3.1 looked fuzzy, and Photoshop CS2's small menus on the right didn't scale at all. In conclusion, Windows 8 is still not ready for displaying desktop programs on "retina" screens. I haven't tried using Windows 8 in tablet mode because I don't have a Windows tablet, but I've heard that it's more compatible with "retina" resolutions. BTW, I expect to receive a Lenovo Lynx K3011 Windows 8 tablet this week, though it's only 11.6" 1366x768.

[StevenD]

If the scaling is shaky, I don't want to go with the high resolution screen. And I'm nervous about the button-less trackpad/pointer. Anyone know who is making a laptop with a trackpoint and an IPS screen? Looks like I'll be abandoning Lenovo/IBM after a couple of decades.
/S

[ajkula66]

Anyone know who is making a laptop with a trackpoint and an IPS screen? Looks like I'll be abandoning Lenovo/IBM after a couple of decades.

HP does. Excellent Trackpoint once a "real" ThinkPad nub has been installed, meh keyboard. Dell is the other way around - better keyboard but a rather lousy trackpoint.

Here's how I see your choices, apart from waiting for a W550...

1) Get a well-kept W520 with FHD panel. While not an IPS screen, these are as good as TN will ever get, and you get to keep the "real" keyboard. Technology-wise, they are still pretty future-proof.

2) Look into Dell's Precision (4700/6700) and HP's EliteBook (85*0W/87*0W) lines, preferably from the respective outlets, they will still come with a 3-year warranty which I believe can be upgraded to five. If you can live with a 17" behemoth, HP 8760W/8770W with DreamColor IPS LCD are stunning machines.

3) Build a FrankenPad...

pianowizard wrote:

Sounds like none of you guys have actually tried Windows 8 UI scaling

Oh but I have. And was underwhelmed with it.

I had two T440p units side-by-side, one running W7 and the other W8.

Is W8 an improvement when compared to W7, scaling-wise? Yes.

Is it anywhere near the OSX-on-Retina level? Heck, no. Not by a long shot.

If Macs had a keyboard that I could live with (they don't) I would've switched many moons ago...

[600X]

pianowizard wrote:

Sounds like none of you guys have actually tried Windows 8 UI scaling

Oh but I have. And was underwhelmed with it.

Same here. I still consider it decent meaning it works (mostly), but that's pretty much it. Since it's just simple plain old scaling, nothing fancy like what Apple does, it is to be expected that the results look mediocre at best. Metro fares a little better, but it's not like anyone actually spends much time there.

The W520 with FHD display seems like a reasonable choice. Not many people know this but there is actually a compatible IPS screen available which will work plug 'n play, provided a LCD cable extension is added. (since the connector is on the other side)

Beware that colors will look "worse" compared to the AUO TN since the LG IPS only offers WLED backlight and probably doesn't even cover the sRGB color space. Nevertheless it should still look natural and provide a comfortable viewing experience. (perhaps more so than the AUO does)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LG-15-6-LAP ... 58a0dcccb5

Pricey, but worth it if you are IPS addicted and have a 15" 16:9 laptop that is worthy of receiving such an upgrade. (I initially wanted to install one of these on a Dell XPS 15 l502x or XMG P501/502 until I realized I'd go bankrupt then)

[StevenD]

I think I can't handle the ultra-high-resolution screen. And I desperately need USB 3.0. And I'm sooo familiar with TP's and their problems that it's hard to decide to jump ship and find the problems of the Dells and HPs. If I decide to go with the 1920 x 1080 W540, please tell me that their TN screens are better than the TN's of the T61p and the other earlier post-IPS TP's.
/S

[600X]

Which T61p are you talking about? If it's the 15.4" model then the W540 FHD screen will be far worse than the WSXGA+ or WUXGA display, which were both nice and above average TN's.

If you are referring to the 14" models then the quality should be similar to the W540 FHD.

[StevenD]

Oh, I was just referring generically to the early post-T60p TN screens. I ordered a T61p when they came out, to replace my T60p, but sent it back when I saw how terrible the screen was. I was hoping that six years later the TN's had gotten better and I wouldn't be so unhappy with the screen on a non-IPS W540p.

[Ibthink]

I still would advise you to get the WQHD IPS screen.

Scaling works perfectly in Windows - the problems are not on Microsofts side, they come from the software vendors, who don´t program their software correctly.

If you have problems with scaling, you always can just set the screen to a lower resolution.

[ajkula66]

If you have problems with scaling, you always can just set the screen to a lower resolution.

And here comes the blurry-ness once again...this is really not a sensible option.

[ajkula66]

and I wouldn't be so unhappy with the screen on a non-IPS W540p.

Oh you WOULD be VERY unhappy. Trust me on that one.

Those panels are outright junk.

[Ibthink]

If you have problems with scaling, you always can just set the screen to a lower resolution.

And here comes the blurry-ness once again...this is really not a sensible option.

I have heard different, a T540p user over in the Notebookreview forum stated that there is no blurryness if you use the 3K screen in 1920x1080. See: http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/ ... ost9479379

Setting the resolution back down to FHD and fonts at 100% is perfect. Super crisp and no scaling problems

[ajkula66]

I have heard different, a T540p user over in the Notebookreview forum stated that there is no blurryness if you use the 3K screen in 1920x1080. See: http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo]

I don't know what you've heard but I DO know what I've seen.

Yes, I've had an opportunity to briefly test a W540 with the 3K panel - which is the same Panasonic one as in T540p - and it was blurry once the resolution was lowered. Not outright horrible, but definitely noticeable.

[600X]

I have heard different, a T540p user over in the Notebookreview forum stated that there is no blurryness if you use the 3K screen in 1920x1080. See: http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo]

I don't know what you've heard but I DO know what I've seen.

Yes, I've had an opportunity to briefly test a W540 with the 3K panel - which is the same Panasonic one as in T540p - and it was blurry once the resolution was lowered. Not outright horrible, but definitely noticeable.

I can concur, as some know I had a few weeks to test the T540p with IPS panel, and setting the resolution to 1920x1080 just made everything blurry.

Oh, I was just referring generically to the early post-T60p TN screens. I ordered a T61p when they came out, to replace my T60p, but sent it back when I saw how terrible the screen was. I was hoping that six years later the TN's had gotten better and I wouldn't be so unhappy with the screen on a non-IPS W540p.

They have not become better. One might even argue that they have become worse because the LED backlight makes everything look more bluish and unnatural.

[StevenD]

Hmm. So, what are all of you actually *using* as your laptops? And does any manufacturer actually make a laptop with an acceptable display? I really need to upgrade from my T60p.
/S

[pianowizard]

I have heard different, a T540p user over in the Notebookreview forum stated that there is no blurryness if you use the 3K screen in 1920x1080.

While I have not played with 3K or 4K displays, I had 15.0" 2048x1536 for a couple years and tested what it would look like at 1024x768. It looked blurry, which was surprising because I thought reducing resolution by exactly one half would get the screen to use 4 pixels to display the content of 1 pixel. Nonetheless, it looked better than when I reduced the resolution of a 1600x1200 or 1400x1050 screen, which makes sense because as pixel density goes up, everything becomes smaller, including the blurry areas. From this experience, I would predict that 1920x1080 on the T540p's 2880x1620 would be even less blurry than 1024x768 on 2048x1536, but if one looks carefully, the blurriness should still be there, as Aurora and ajkula66 just confirmed.

Another possibility no one has considered is whether that T540p owner uses ClearType. On a screen at its native resolution, ClearType tends to reduce the sharpness of text. If that person had been using ClearType, then he was already used to viewing slightly blurred text, which might further explain why he wasn't bothered by 2880x1620 at 1920x1080. I don't use ClearType within Windows but do use it in Internet Explorer 11 because there is no way to turn it off. When I first upgraded to IE11, I hated the blurred text, but have since adapted to it. Now, when I use a non-IE11 browser that lacks ClearType (for example right now, when I am typing this message in Opera), text actually looks weirdly sharp and skinny.

Hmm. So, what are all of you actually *using* as your laptops?

I have lots of laptops but the two that I use most are:

Sony Pro 13 (SVP13213CXB): Core i5-4200U, 13.3" 1920x1080 touchscreen IPS (165.6 DPI)

Panasonic Let's Note CF-Y9: Core2 Duo U9600, 14.1" 1400x1050 TN (124.1 DPI)

And does any manufacturer actually make a laptop with an acceptable display? I really need to upgrade from my T60p.

These days, most brands offer plenty of IPS laptops.

[600X]

Hmm. So, what are all of you actually *using* as your laptops? And does any manufacturer actually make a laptop with an acceptable display? I really need to upgrade from my T60p.
/S

At home I usually sit in front of my FrankenPad. (T60 15.0" body) It has a 1400x1050 IPS display and a T8300 CPU. Sometimes I use my X301 (SU9400@2.13GHz) which has a 1440x900 TN, though I'm still working on the IPS mod.

Those are my "keepers". I will likely never sell them and they can't be replaced either. Currently I'm in the progress of changing around my setup again (already sold my other machines), atm the X240 IPS and XMG P502 (high end FHD TN) are my next targets. I'm really trying to get away from TN displays myself, which is why even my rare X1 had to go. (the MSI in my sig is just something I wanted to try out, will probably be sold as well)

Like pianowizard stated, IPS displays have become very common these days. What size is your T60p? George mentioned the T440p/T440s with FHD display earlier in this thread, have you looked at those?

[ajkula66]

Hmm. So, what are all of you actually *using* as your laptops? And does any manufacturer actually make a laptop with an acceptable display? I really need to upgrade from my T60p.
/S

I'll repeat my recommendation towards HP EliteBooks with DreamColor IPS panels. These screens are nothing short of stunning. The best laptop LCD on the market at the moment, bar none, in my opinion.

Personally, I find myself using an upgraded/modded 15.4" T61 with a LG Philips WUXGA (1920x1200) LCD the most these days. While the panel is a TN one, it's very easy on the eyes and offers some great screen real estate. I've bought and re-sold a W520 with FHD screen since I ended up liking this LCD better, especially with the colour profile that Aurora was kind enough to share. With that said, I'm not a professional photographer or anything along those lines.

I also have a plethora of FrankenPads with various IPS/AFFS panels. Once again, given that you already own a T60p that might be another option to look into.

Good luck.

[StevenD]

I just did a chat with HP. Indeed, the Elites have IPS. Also the ZBooks, 15.6 and 17 inch, even though it doesn't say IPS on their Web site, the Dream Color is IPS. So it *does* look like I can find a 1920 x 1080 with IPS. Thanks. Boy, they're pricey, though. Still want 1200 pixels tall, but beggars can't be choosers, I guess.

[ajkula66]

Still want 1200 pixels tall, but beggars can't be choosers, I guess.

Well, unless you're dead-set on a brand new machine, 8740W with DC panel is 1920x1200, albeit on 17"...and is one of my favourite laptops of all times...would make the top three if it were not for meh/duh keyboard...however, these were discontinued a few years ago.

[Ibthink]

Note that if you get a Dreamcolor machine, you won´t have Optimus - which means that the nVidia GPU will be always on and you will get much less battery life.

[ajkula66]

Note that if you get a Dreamcolor machine, you won´t have Optimus - which means that the nVidia GPU will be always on and you will get much less battery life.

True...however, given that OP is coming from a 15" T60p, I'm dead certain that he'll find battery life on a new HP as a tremendous improvement...

A very small price to pay for the best laptop LCD on the market, IMO.

[StevenD]

Thank you again. Any comment on 15" vs. 17"?

[pianowizard]

Well, unless you're dead-set on a brand new machine, 8740W with DC panel is 1920x1200, albeit on 17"...and is one of my favourite laptops of all times...would make the top three if it were not for meh/duh keyboard...

I was using my 8740w just earlier today, and yesterday too. The keyboard is acceptable, but I hate the mouse buttons because they need to be pressed very deep, and I also don't like their rubbery texture. Everything else is quite nice though, especially the solid construction. But I have to say it's not even one of my top 13 laptops of all time, which are listed here in this thread (the ones that I enlarged): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 04#p734104 .

Thank you again. Any comment on 15" vs. 17"?

Only you can decide. Are you willing to lug around an 8-to-9-pound beast, and how big is your laptop carrying case?

[ajkula66]

. But I have to say it's not even one of my top 13 laptops of all time, which are listed here in this thread (the ones that I enlarged): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 04#p734104 .

Ahh old friend...but your 8740W does not have a DC panel...if it did, I'm dead certain that it would climb up that "favourite" list of yours pretty darn fast...