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Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#91 Post by Puppy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:37 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:48 pm
Too late IMO...the trust - whatever was left of it to begin with - is gone, at least in my case.
It is funny while people do trust companies like Google, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram etc. Those subjects rely 99% on targeted ads income so they have to spy user's private data to survive. Microsoft has about 8% only total from ads. So I'll still trust Micosoft (Apple, Adobe, Oracle ...) much more because they're IT companies selling paid products and services, not ads. For me, Google is and will be the no-trust company #1.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#92 Post by shawross » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:55 am

Puppy wrote:For me, Google is and will be the no-trust company #1.

All the companies who are linked to the internet are involved in the collection of "Big Data" and you shouldn't really trust any of them. But if you use their software or services you have to trust them to keep you secure to a certain degree.

If Google are so untrustworthy why did they setup Project Zero to discover Zero-Day vulnerabilities. The QA departments at Microsoft and Intel don't make me feel very secure at all.

Is this incompetence or deception? You can make your own minds up about that one.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#93 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:58 am

Puppy wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:37 am
ajkula66 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:48 pm
Too late IMO...the trust - whatever was left of it to begin with - is gone, at least in my case.
It is funny while people do trust companies like Google, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram etc.
I use none of the above...
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#94 Post by Puppy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:57 am

shawross wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:55 am
If Google are so untrustworthy why did they setup Project Zero to discover Zero-Day vulnerabilities. The QA departments at Microsoft and Intel don't make me feel very secure at all.
There are many other subjects that do the same, including Microsoft. It is the IT media that makes the Google one more visible than it deserves. Don't mention that majority of Android devices won't receive a single security update during its lifespan, ridiculous company when it comes to security. And I understand them because the only thing Google cares of is displaying ads, no more.

For instance you can read the Meltdown CPU bug was found by Google, right? But the truth is a bit different:

Meltdown was discovered independently by Jann Horn from Google's Project Zero, Werner Haas and Thomas Prescher from Cyberus Technology, as well as Daniel Gruss, Moritz Lipp, Stefan Mangard and Michael Schwarz from Graz University of Technology.

Do you see a reason to emphasise Google there? I don't.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#95 Post by shawross » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Puppy wrote: It is the IT media that makes the Google one more visible than it deserves.

I think Microsoft and Intel have a bit of work to do regarding their Media standing.

If Google was updating "all" smart phones with the Android OS then there would be many smart phones which wouldn't boot. LOL

My smart phone Cortex A53 isn't susceptible to the Meltdown/Spectre exploit.

The Meltdown exploit has been a known issue by industry since the Pentium Pro in 1995

https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums ... pic/293589
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#96 Post by dr_st » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:04 am

shawross wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:58 pm
The Meltdown exploit has been a known issue by industry since the Pentium Pro in 1995

https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums ... pic/293589
Excuse me the illiterate, but since you certainly read that entire thread (from 2009), could you point me to where exactly that thread shows that "The Meltdown exploit has been a known issue by industry since the Pentium Pro in 1995"? I would certainly like to know, so I could join the class-action lawsuit.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#97 Post by shawross » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:59 am

I am speculating how long Intel and others have known about this exploit.

The Intel forum dates are for 2009 so they were posted about 8 years before it came to be an official security exploit.

I tend to believe it has been a somewhat ignored/hidden Intel exploit but I don't have any tangible evidence to back that up.

This Meltdown exploit is built on out of order execution OOOE and I think it is logical to surmise if you allow random cpu executions before hierarchy checks then you leave yourself open to security threats.

Intel would just claim ignorance or incompetence so good luck with the class-action lawsuit. Although Hillary Clinton might be more interested because you would need to substantiate what loss you incurred.

Back in 1995 any security doubts would have been overwhelmed by the need for speed.

An interesting read is the associated article by Agner Fog http://www.agner.org/optimize/microarchitecture.pdf

Intel haven't always been forthcoming with their architecture.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#98 Post by dr_st » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:11 am

In other words, based on nothing but your own guesses and speculations (pun intended), you conclude that simply because the architectural features have been known for a long time, the exploits also must have been known. Investigative journalism at its best.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#99 Post by Puppy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:57 am

shawross wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:59 am
I am speculating how long Intel and others have known about this exploit.
And it is still just a beginning, there is another brand new DRAM vulnerability waiting to get attention by clueless IT journalists :-) And yes, Google will be (mis)credited again by them.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#100 Post by shawross » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:53 pm

dr_st wrote:based on nothing but your own guesses
From the Intel forum you can see in 2009 that it was known that OOOE was a security hole in Intel processors dating back to the Pentium Pro.
That is not a guess and to suggest a cavalier attitude was taken to security back then wouldn't be such a long stretch.

Last year within about 2 months a bunch of analysts suddenly all started arriving at the same conclusion about the Meltdown/Spectre exploits.

A coincidence do you think? You could also speculate that there has been a bit of a purge lately of security exploits that have been the tools of state hackers.

I am sure after the circus of the last US Presidential election and the Russian (Fancy Bears) hacking of DNC computers there has been a bit of reflection in the intelligence community.

Sometimes you should attempt to join the dots so to speak to seek the truth.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#101 Post by dr_st » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:19 am

shawross wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:53 pm
From the Intel forum you can see in 2009 that it was known that OOOE was a security hole in Intel processors dating back to the Pentium Pro.
That is not a guess and to suggest a cavalier attitude was taken to security back then wouldn't be such a long stretch.
Not a single one of the words "security", "hole", "flaw", "Pentium Pro" or "1995" appears in the thread you linked to. Either you gave the wrong link, or you're just pulling stuff out of... somewhere.

The fact that back in 1995 people were not thinking about security the way they are today is obvious. People were thinking about a whole lot of things different back then. You do realize that it's pre-Internet era you're talking about?

As for the rest of the things, well, let's just say that when I want to have discussions with conspiracy theorists, I'll go to the Flat Earth Society forum, not to Thinkpads.com.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#102 Post by shawross » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:12 am

Intel forum wrote:"Our project is to optimize instruction scheduling in gcc, by detecting structural hazards. The algorithm employed requires no out-of-order executions by the processor."

I am not sure what you think structural hazards are? But this question wasn't designed as a headline grabber and I apologize for that . Just someone doing due diligence which Intel obviously never did.

I am not sure if you have heard of QA but should something that was designed for 1995 should still be relevant today without constant integrity analysis.

You might think the Russian hacking of DNC computers is a conspiracy similar to flat earth theory but a certain CIA director might argue the point with you. But you would still be right undoubtedly and Trump would support your viewpoint.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#103 Post by dr_st » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:33 am

shawross wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:12 am
I am not sure what you think structural hazards are?
Oh, I get it. You saw a term "structural hazards", and automatically assumed that it has something to do with security. Well, it doesn't. It's a basic term in processor instruction scheduling and pipelining which describes resource limits. Obviously not something you deal with, otherwise you would have known. But guess what? It's not something I deal with either. So what do I do when I encounter a term that I'm not familiar with? I look it up, which takes a few seconds. You obviously didn't bother, and instead preferred to jump to far-reaching conclusions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_scheduling
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~mstrout/CS ... ure15a.pdf
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#104 Post by shawross » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:42 pm

LOL tap away at your touch screen and search for out of order execution and report back what you find. This is the heart of the issue here.


edit: I am not a CPU engineer and I concur there are no smoking guns here so to speak but if Intel weren't so obsessed with speed they might have done more risk analysis of their hardware structure.
Maybe they have learned from their mistakes and future architecture will not expose consumers to hacks.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#105 Post by dr_st » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:50 am

shawross wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:42 pm
if Intel weren't so obsessed with speed they might have done more risk analysis of their hardware structure.
Maybe they have learned from their mistakes and future architecture will not expose consumers to hacks.
I prefer speed, so I'm happy with the way things have been so far. Feel free to be unhappy, if you prefer.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#106 Post by taichi » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:56 am

I'm new to this discussion, as I got a machine with Win 10 on it.

As many of you probably know, there are more programs than Never10 out there. Here's a list:

https://chefkochblog.wordpress.com/2018 ... ion-tools/

Check out the programs, as opposed to the scripts.

The big problem, as many have discovered, is that after manually making changes, that Windows Update has the power to turn services back on, so one has to be hyper-vigilant to tamp the fire down. And it doesn't just affect 10, as MS is retro-fitting 8.1 and 7 with updates that confer some of the anti-privacy features of 10 on the older OSes.

So it seems that a search for a program that can maintain its grip in the face of Windows Updates is a necessity.

On the list. Blackbird looks promising, but I can't tell if the 2016 version is kept up to date with updates.

As far as just turning off WU, doesn't that expose you to some security risks? If you have to pick and choose manually what to install, then it seems you're back to hyper-vigilance mode, which is nerve-wracking.

As far as Linux is concerned, and the need to run critical Windows programs, it's unclear to me whether running Virtual Machines with Windows installed therein exposes your host machine to any security incursions. There is also Wine, but it's also unclear to me if that will ever be 100% successful in running all Windows programs.

I don't think worrying about privacy issues on the newer Windows is an idle occupation. When their own software agreement states that they have your permission to view or scan persona files and folders, don't privacy rights go out the window?
If you're a writer, or a designer, or someone developing a product, who wants their work out anywhere except where the creator wants them?

You give certain access rights, say to your banker, but you know them and there are certain safeguards and limits to protect you. But would you hand your info out in a blanket way to strangers that you never meet, with no recourse if they get an advance copy of your great American Novel?

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#107 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:02 am

taichi wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:56 am

As far as just turning off WU, doesn't that expose you to some security risks?
Well, if I have to pick and choose, I'll take "some security risks" over the option that you've described here:
When their own software agreement states that they have your permission to view or scan persona files and folders, don't privacy rights go out the window?
If you're a writer, or a designer, or someone developing a product, who wants their work out anywhere except where the creator wants them?

You give certain access rights, say to your banker, but you know them and there are certain safeguards and limits to protect you. But would you hand your info out in a blanket way to strangers that you never meet, with no recourse if they get an advance copy of your great American Novel?
Obviously, to each their own.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#108 Post by taichi » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:14 am

Have you looked at and considered any of the programs on the list I posted, George?

By the way, the Windows 10 machine I picked up is a hardly used 8740W with the DreamColor 2 screen. :)

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#109 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:47 am

taichi wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:14 am
Have you looked at and considered any of the programs on the list I posted, George?
No. I'm staying with "locked" W7 until I'm ready to move to Linux 100% which is going to happen sooner than later.
By the way, the Windows 10 machine I picked up is a hardly used 8740W with the DreamColor 2 screen. :)
Congratulations. The best screen ever, IMO. I couldn't live with the keyboard, though, and that's the only reason why I don't own one. Other than that, they are stellar systems and reasonably future-proof given their age.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#110 Post by taichi » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Naturally speaking, George, when i need to write long pieces...so keyboard isn't an issue. For me, screen's the thing, and as you know, it's 16 x 10. And there are all kinds of upgrades possible, CPU and GPU-wise. It has an Nvidia 5000M right now, and a K5000M is pretty much a drop in replacement.

If Wine ever got to a 100%, I'd be on Linux right now.

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#111 Post by taichi » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:04 pm

One way to respond to privacy concerns is to use a VPN. I tried doing a comparison of various VPN providers, focusing on security, but it was overwhelming, with each website doing comparisons wildly disagreeing.

Anyone here have any opinions?

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#112 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:22 pm

In the end it will be a lot easier (and cheaper) to dump Windows altogether and switch to Linux.

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#113 Post by taichi » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 pm

Is Linux any safer? Certainly it avoids intrusions by the OS maker, as in Microsoft. But what about malware?

There are some Windows programs that I need, and that means either a VM or Wine. If I use a VM, then I need to install Windows, and in a way I'm back to square one...at least when I'm in the virtual environment.

I like the idea of Wine, but it's not 100%.

The idea of moving to Linux is attractive, except for the compatibility issues.

I still think a VPN might be a good approach to online security, and would like to know the most secure one.

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#114 Post by USSS » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:14 pm

taichi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 pm
II still think a VPN might be a good approach to online security, and would like to know the most secure one.
https://restoreprivacy.com/best-vpns/

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#115 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:54 am

@USSS:

Thanks for posting that link. An interesting comparison indeed.

@taichi:

There is no OS platform - or anything else in this life, at least IMO - that is completely risk-free. One has to decide what works - or not - for *their* purposes. My own migration to Linux has been slowed down by the fact that my "locked" W7 installs still work exceptionally well for my needs. Having said that, a full migration is really a matter of "when" and not "if" in my case.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#116 Post by evening_hunger » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:50 am

taichi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 pm
Is Linux any safer? Certainly it avoids intrusions by the OS maker, as in Microsoft. But what about malware?
You could dissmiss it straight away by saying there is no malware for Linux. But generally, that's not exact. First of all, Android is Linux, and since there's tons of malware for Android, it would be perfectly enough to invalidate my claim. But moving to PCs, most "clean" (i.e. full GPL) Linux distributions are completely malware free because of their openess. (of course, that doesn't mean their not prone to Meltdown/Spectre attacks which are hardware based).
There are some Windows programs that I need, and that means either a VM or Wine. If I use a VM, then I need to install Windows, and in a way I'm back to square one...at least when I'm in the virtual environment.
That's true. You see, quitting Windows is more like switching to a healthy diet or quitting a religion, sorry if I'm to drastic in my comparison here. But it's okay to have a hamburger every now and then if you're "checking out this vegetarianism thing" for the first few years or so. Yes, i guess time is an under-appreciated factor here. These transitions are gradual. A full OS switch may take years, because that's how much it takes to fully change your computing habits, find good replacements for all your software etc. Difference is you actually do the switch (as in boot Linux) which is a well defined, discrete moment in time - but in 2018 with all the VMs indeed the line gets a bit blurred. For me, I first briefly quit Windows in 2003 and went back to it in 2004. Then I fully quit it in 2006 forever, since then I don't even have any dual boot. BUT there are some small things you can't get around. For example, Epson makes good and affordable film scanners (I do a lot of film photography still) and their Windows software is just leaps and bounds ahead of what XSane can do in Linux. So, with great effort, last month I was able to get a VM (with my favourite ... windows XP (yes!)) up and running only for the scanner thing. It works, and I keep this VM fully offline (I only start it few times a year in the first place), which is trivial to do in all Linux virtual machine managers. So I'd say there's no danger in VMs as long as you really know what you're doing.
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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#117 Post by Cigarguy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:54 pm

Can't live without Windows? Stick to Windows. Willing to learn a new trick? Try Linux but do it on a spare machine and wheen yourself slowly off the Windows drug. I like to think that I'm not so dependent on any one software that I can't live without it. There are different ways of doing things and different Kool-aid to drink.

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Re: Don't want W10? Concerned about privacy? Make sure to kill/uninstall these updates...

#118 Post by taichi » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:12 am

Cigarguy wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:54 pm
Can't live without Windows? Stick to Windows. Willing to learn a new trick? Try Linux but do it on a spare machine and wheen yourself slowly off the Windows drug...
Great advice.

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