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The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

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RealBlackStuff
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The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#1 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:13 am

Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#2 Post by atagunov » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:51 am

Perhaps the real impact of the Windows 11 launch will be ... a new mountain forming in the e-waste breaking centres
It would be nice if the argument could be brought into public space thus putting pressure on MS to reconsider. I'm not sure how much reason there is to hope though.
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#3 Post by dr_st » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:37 am

As usual when something new is released, there is a whole lot of uncertainty, conflicting information, which leads to lots of yap-yap generated by people, some of which have no basis in reality.

And there are always folks who take advantage of that and cherry pick stories to support their preconceived biases.
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#4 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:50 am

I have zero interest in Windows 11.
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#5 Post by ModelMman » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:50 am

Someone has made a registry-file that removes the need for TPM and Secure Boot when installing Windows 11.
I guess we'll see if it still works when the final version is released.

YouTube video:
"How to Install Windows 11 Insider Preview through USB | Bypass TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF80cnIJ24M
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#6 Post by skx » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:41 pm

dr_st wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:37 am
As usual when something new is released, there is a whole lot of uncertainty, conflicting information, which leads to lots of yap-yap generated by people, some of which have no basis in reality.

And there are always folks who take advantage of that and cherry pick stories to support their preconceived biases.
well, as a positive minded person, I look at the 1st world problems from a different angle :mrgreen: you should compare it with speeding tickets, everyone complains about it every day, but in fact it is the easiest thing to avoid.... just do not exceed maximum allowed speed. same applies to the whining microsoft sheep, dont whine, join us at the linux garden of eden, the most efficient way to find back the love for personal computing :mrgreen:
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#7 Post by dr_st » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:17 pm

skx wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:41 pm
same applies to the whining microsoft sheep, dont whine, join us at the linux garden of eden, the most efficient way to find back the love for personal computing :mrgreen:
Don't you get it that some people simply like to whine? They would whine just the same in your "garden of eden", only about different things. :)

In the meanwhile, some people quietly use the products they feel give them what they need, be it based on Windows, Linux or Mac.
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#8 Post by cadillacmike68 » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:40 pm

TPFanatic wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:50 am
I have zero interest in Windows 11.


I have NEGATIVE interest in winblows 11. :P
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W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#9 Post by farmall » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am

Overall its much ado about nothing as normal users won't care and simply use their machines until they malfunction then replace them, like phones. OS upgrades only concern techies who are best equipped to handle or not need them in the first place. Serious users won't care about Windows 11 unless they require it to make money in which case they can either afford compatible hardware in the way mechanics afford tools (a far more expensive affair than a mere personal computer, I'm a mechanic) or can run it in a VM with emulated TPM (VM compatibility is mandatory for Windows to be used in the business space) which was promptly proven by many users.

It's only an operating system. All computers are future e-waste in the way all life dies. The third world and other interested impoverished users will either install old Windows versions or Linux but given power efficiency improvements there's ample reason to be rid of old computers outside the specialist user and hobbyist world. The very reason we have used Thinkpads aplenty is business users replacing their tired fleets so more of same hands us more hardware!The cheaper the better from my perspective as if I need Windows 11 for something MY machine will run it. Some whingers will sperg but that's what they do and it takes all kinds to make a world. Computers sold with Windows 10 will run that OS for a reasonable time as they were purchased to do.

The overlap of computers recent enough to be respectably fast (in 2025 when W10 loses security update support, which IRL is mostly a business consideration because the average user doesn't have or want a clue) and those needing W11 for functional reasons yet with hardware outside the approved list AND unable to run Windows in a VM (a far easier way to care for Windows than bare metal, the enterprise folks were onto something!) on a FOSS host will be tiny. Running obsolete Windows versions doesn't pose a genuine security problem for hobbyists for if they genuinely cared about security they'd not use Windows in the first place. Industrial Windows users had decades to switch to FOSS alternatives, can (and should anyway) airgap their networks, and don't need a desktop OS for what specialty software should be doing (machine control etc). Running Windows on control systems is negligent and begging for ransom and other malware. Those systems need to be killed off however it's done.

I'd love to see a waterfall of cheap used business class hardware sooner than otherwise but tax depreciation will push it to market much faster than W11.

With respect to this forum the real question is "will change plus my attachment to Windows thanks to learned helplessness result in inability to run the latest version on/via my old hardware?" and the answer is no.


For enthusiasts and specialty users (like the entire old Thinkpad community) there are and will be workarounds. W11 bypasses the hardware check when the installer detects it's running in a VM. Comparing installs in virtual machines vs those on hardware will yield different registry key trees informing what needs changing. Ancient PCs still operating will need periodic clean installs anyway and one reddit user wisely noted:
You can also just press shift+F10 after booting the installer media and manually diskpart + bootsect + dism the image to the drive. The installer doesn't do anything special, it just does the above (format disks, install bootloader, and extract Windows image to disk) the actual PC specific configuration is done by the OOBE on first boot.
BTW similar methods are used to manually install Windows to USB since MSFT insists on (unlike FOSS) blocking install to external media except for the discontinued Windows to go once available on Enterprise. That could be scripted without running the hardware check.

For those seriously wanting obsolete/unsupported OS on bare metal but with internet access, reasonable security (far better than WIndows only protected by its own firewall) coupled with simultaneous access to more capable modern hardware there's yet another option, RDPing (by any of many methods) into a "surfing appliance" computer (could be an SBC or a virtual W11 instance on another box running FOSS or W11 on bare metal) from which they safely surf the net. That's a rather good idea whatever Windows version one runs if security REALLY matters. It's also versatile because it can offload heavy tasks or light. I effortlessly NoMachine into my home server which also runs a desktop environment from anywhere in my LAN and use any of my fossil T61s etc to control it for much better results (two non-ancient Xeons with 128GB RAM stomps any C2D) than attempting same on a 2GHZ C2D with 3GB RAM. I run VMs on that server for education and convenience and if I want W11 available to all my machines I can install it once there instead of multiple times. VMs permit reverting to a clean snapshot quick as rebooting the VM (not rebooting the host) and ability to save Snapshots is absent on old bare metal installs (restore points aren't the same thing as a rebooting into a clean install).

RDP for surfing also works across operating systems and hardware architectures so someone wanting to use their older Thinkpad with Windows 11 can do that today from ANY Pad no matter how ancient that can run an RDP client! Windows 10 IoT core isn't the only Windows to run on a RasbPi 4: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/ins ... spberry-pi Old Thinkpad owners should take note as using your machine for a "rich terminal client" can offer you all sorts of interesting choices while letting you keep your loved hardware. Your fast machines thus greatly enhance your elderly machines in ways no local installation on limited hardware could do.

Making a W11 installation available to one's old Thinkpad doesn't require it be on local hardware or on bare metal on any hardware. I'm already doing this with my OS and hardware mix because it's so convenient but even the most basic user could dumpster-dive a W11 compatible device, place it behind their router then both use it and remote into it rather like internet connection sharing except sharing the OS too.

Got an old Pad with no hope of running a modern browser because the OS is ancient? RDP into a different machine to surf and you can run any modern browser on the host while your client serves as a terminal. A VNC session can put your WIndows 95 machine on the internet using a modern browser on another machine. Not everything need be done in software only.

Have fun and experiment!

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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#10 Post by atagunov » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:17 am

Hi,
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
OS upgrades only concern techies who are best equipped to handle or not need them in the first place
MS has been happily upgrading people automatically from Win 7 to Win 10. It will probably offer a similar automated upgrade from Win 10 to Win 11.
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
All computers are future e-waste in the way all life dies
That's not an argument in defence MS' action to put more hardware into waste heap sooner.
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
given power efficiency improvements there's ample reason to be rid of old computers outside the specialist user and hobbyist world
Poor argument to trash notebooks with CPU TDP of 35-45Wt
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
For enthusiasts and specialty users (like the entire old Thinkpad community) there are and will be workarounds. W11 bypasses the hardware check when the installer detects it's running in a VM
I'm the one using a VM now and I'm the one telling you: you can't give all CPU cores to a VM. On my T520 with two cores the VM can only have one. Asta la vista. It runs but not as snappily as it could have. To get glitch-free sound you need an external USB audio card - in fact I run a full 2nd USB hub just for the VM with camera and sound. VM is a workaround but not a perfect one.
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
RDP into a different machine
Good luck when you're a Three user in London. Your connection will be quite poor a lot of times. Good luck on the tube. Good luck out of town. Good luck with anything that wants a snappy reaction. Good luck with games, with video editing. Good luck if you just don't like that 0.5sec delay I'm getting with an RDP like solution. Good luck
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#11 Post by dr_st » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:16 am

atagunov wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:17 am
Hi,
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
OS upgrades only concern techies who are best equipped to handle or not need them in the first place
MS has been happily upgrading people automatically from Win 7 to Win 10. It will probably offer a similar automated upgrade from Win 10 to Win 11.
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
All computers are future e-waste in the way all life dies
That's not an argument in defence MS' action to put more hardware into waste heap sooner.
I just don't understand how you conclude that there is "an MS' action to put more hardware into waste heap sooner".
  • Is a OS vendor legally/contractually obligated to support a certain number of hardware generations backwards?
  • Is Win10 going to stop working the moment Win11 hits RTM? Or is it going to stop receiving updates/fixes?
  • Will Microsoft force upgrades on people with unsupported hardware, leaving them with a broken machine and no recourse?
  • Does a perfectly working computer suddenly become a useless piece of junk because there exists an operating system version that will not run on it?
  • Will we suddenly see a surge of software written only for Win11, or will software vendors immediately drop Win10 support?
I think the answer to all the above is "no".

Now, if someone is the kind of person who must run the newest version of Windows on their hardware, just because, otherwise he goes "Waaaah! Waaaah! My perfect 5-year old laptop that I planned to keep for 10 more years is now obsolete trash! I will now throw it into the dumpster and buy a new one!", then OK. But is that really Microsoft's problem, or his own?
atagunov wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:17 am
farmall wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 am
For enthusiasts and specialty users (like the entire old Thinkpad community) there are and will be workarounds. W11 bypasses the hardware check when the installer detects it's running in a VM
I'm the one using a VM now and I'm the one telling you: you can't give all CPU cores to a VM. On my T520 with two cores the VM can only have one. Asta la vista. It runs but not as snappily as it could have. To get glitch-free sound you need an external USB audio card - in fact I run a full 2nd USB hub just for the VM with camera and sound. VM is a workaround but not a perfect one.
It seems that you missed the second part of this sentence. This wasn't about running in a VM. This was about "reverse-engineering" the installer, to understand what it does differently when installing in a VM, then applying the same settings to installing on bare metal - effectively skipping the HW checks.
atagunov wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:17 am
Good luck when you're a Three user in London. Your connection will be quite poor a lot of times. Good luck on the tube. Good luck out of town. Good luck with anything that wants a snappy reaction. Good luck with games, with video editing. Good luck if you just don't like that 0.5sec delay I'm getting with an RDP like solution. Good luck
I agree with you, but it's going to be a few years until you will actually start hitting a wall with performance-demanding programs that would actually require Win11 as minimum requirements. By then, even if there are not reliable workarounds for older hardware, most people will have upgraded their machines for other reasons (either because they want a newer, faster one, or because the older one broke, or whatever). The actual contribution of Win11 to "great computer extinction" is going to be very minor.

In the end, I do agree with farmall - it's much ado about nothing.
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#12 Post by atagunov » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:52 am

dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:16 am
I just don't understand how you conclude that there is "an MS' action to put more hardware into waste heap sooner".
It's indeed about the year Win 10 support from MS or the major software vendors ends.

It will most certainly be an MS's action to put hardware into waste heap then.
Even if MS is not contractually obliged not to do it.

Similar: Apple is not contractually obliged to supply chips to make 3rd party repairs possible.
But it is in the interests of the society to compel it to do so.
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:16 am
It seems that you missed the second part of this sentence. This wasn't about running in a VM. This was about "reverse-engineering" the installer, to understand what it does differently when installing in a VM, then applying the same settings to installing on bare metal - effectively skipping the HW checks
Yes I missed it. Wall of text, too long for me to read.

There are and will be hacks. But suppose my computer is my live-hood.
Can I afford to use a version of Windows that can stop working after the next update from MS?
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#13 Post by dr_st » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am

atagunov wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:52 am

It's indeed about the year Win 10 support from MS or the major software vendors ends.

It will most certainly be an MS's action to put hardware into waste heap then.
Even with this I don't fully agree.

The "end of support" does not mean your OS stops working. It just means you stop receiving security patches from the OS vendor, for free. Even now, Win7 and Server 2008 users who choose to pay Microsoft for extended support can get ESU patches. Or you can buy from 0patch, who still support even older operating systems.

Microsoft has spoiled its customers with very long security support cycles (mainstream support and new end way sooner). Considering how little the average consumer pays for Windows, the value is actually not that bad. (I fully expect being "flamed" for this remark, but do keep in mind that the average consumer pays nowhere near the official retail price).

The situation here is really not much different than the first Windows builds that required DEP support, or SSE2 instructions. Somehow I don't remember such a dramatic outcry back then. Maybe it's because things like TPM 2.0 and hardware DX12 requirements seem somewhat arbitrary and excessive (assuming they are properly understood).
atagunov wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:52 am
There are and will be hacks. But suppose my computer is my live-hood.
Can I afford to use a version of Windows that can stop working after the next update from MS?
Well... there is much to be said when you take this point of view.

For example, if your computer is your livelihood, I would expect that you would upgrade it regularly just to keep it fresh, speedy, less prone to random hardware failures, and in warranty. This is what businesses do, for example.

If you are afraid that the OS will suddenly stop working after the next update, then can you afford to use Windows at all? It's not like Microsoft has never botched updates in a way that broke some users' systems, or even intentionally changed features in ways that broke existing workflows.

Proponents of FOSS will happily tell you that you can never ever trust any software that is proprietary, and on some level, they are absolutely right.

Again, if one learns from corporate IT fleets, they mitigate this risk by tightly controlling their users' updates, running them on their own schedule, not Microsoft's schedule, and doing in-house verification. At least some of these "tricks" are easily applicable even in a single-user home environment. Not to mention frequent backups of the entire system, if it is a mission-critical one.

Asoasf.

Let me reiterate: I don't think your points are wrong. All the scenarios you describe are perfectly valid ones, and will definitely affect some of users in some point in the future. When I say that I agree with "much ado about nothing", I mean that I predict that in the end, the percentage of users "left in the cold" without a viable recourse, will be far smaller than the doom-n-gloomers imagine.
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#14 Post by atagunov » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:43 am

dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
if your computer is your livelihood, I would expect that you would upgrade it regularly just to keep it fresh, speedy, less prone to random hardware failures, and in warranty
Respectful disagreement. Computer = my lifehood? I ensure

- the likelihood of failure is low - my 8-yeard old Thinkpads have been :+1: for me
- performance is sufficient - 8-year Thinkpads Ok for me
- it can run the software I need - that's where we're upset with MS
- I have backup machines - even with warranty it can take months right? backup not warranty saves you and businesses
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
The "end of support" does not mean your OS stops working
It can well mean software you need stops running
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
If you are afraid that the OS will suddenly stop working after the next update, then can you afford to use Windows at all? It's not like Microsoft has never botched updates in a way that broke some users' systems, or even intentionally changed features in ways that broke existing workflows.
Counter-example: software remoting into workpace works under Windows and Mac OS but not Linux. The software requires that you have up-to-date security patches installed. You can't use anything but Windows or Mac OS. It will stop working once security patches are no longer issued by MS on the "public channel".
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
Proponents of FOSS will happily tell you that you can never ever trust any software that is proprietary, and on some level, they are absolutely right.
I've actually been considering myself a proponent of FOSS... But then you can argue I'm not a particularly vocal one :)
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
mitigate this risk by tightly controlling their users' updates, running them on their own schedule, not Microsoft's schedule, and doing in-house verification. At least some of these "tricks" are easily applicable even in a single-user home environment. Not to mention frequent backups of the entire system, if it is a mission-critical one.
Unfortunately what Adobe or vendors of remote-working software - the one that you have to use for work - do, even what Zoom does is out of your hands.
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
I predict that in the end, the percentage of users "left in the cold" without a viable recourse, will be far smaller than the doom-n-gloomers imagine.
You are likely right.

My point is reasonable people should put pressure on MS to reconsider. I'd much rather doom-n-gloomers did their worst to exaggerate issues - and would assist them in doing so - if it helps to compel MS.
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#15 Post by mikemex » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:54 am

dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
The "end of support" does not mean your OS stops working.
That's exactly what it means.

This year I decided to renew my computing infrastructure and I've been unable to reinstall Windows 7 and have it to operate as before. They broke something with the updates and now I have a background process consuming CPU time that I've been unable to identify, much less fix.

Don't we need to fall back on Lenovo's hotkey integration because the later versions simply don't run (despite supposedly been tested)?

On Windows 10 I can install 7 drivers without a problem but I can't install the bundled software so I lost pretty much all the functionality I had before. Most software just runs fine; it's just an arbitrary decision to cut you off.

This kind of stuff always reminds me of Stallmans's crusade on restrictive software (closed sources but also specifications/ NDAs).

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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#16 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:19 am

If you use the (contemporary to your model) Lenovo Recovery Disks, you can easily install W7 on old(er) laptops.
Just do NOT run any updates after that, other than missing drivers.
My daily driver T440p had a 'fresh' W7 install from Lenovo T440p recovery disks back in 2018, when I first got it.
Not a single update since, apart from the clunkpad driver!
All Lenovo-bloat programs were duly removed.
It also runs the by now almost antique M$ Office 2010 (only Word and Excel).
As I'm retired, I don't have to worry about work-access and such.
By the time W7 stops fully working, this laptop will probably have given up the ghost.
So do I need W10, let alone W11?
Not me!
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Re: W11, normal users vs enthusiast users

#17 Post by dr_st » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:43 am

mikemex wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:54 am
dr_st wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:01 am
The "end of support" does not mean your OS stops working.
That's exactly what it means.

This year I decided to renew my computing infrastructure and I've been unable to reinstall Windows 7 and have it to operate as before. They broke something with the updates and now I have a background process consuming CPU time that I've been unable to identify, much less fix.
You did something wrong. Like, for example, using an unpatched Win7 RTM installation disk. These have had difficulties for a long time, even before Win7 EOL.

Almost exactly a year ago, I installed Win7 from the Heidoc.net Win7 August 2018 ISO. The only I keep recommending every time it's asked. It has SP1 and all updates up to August 2018 already integrated. Worked flawlessly. Mind you, this was already 9 months after Win7 EOL. After that all I had to do was to fetch the remaining updates. For some of them, I had to first manually install the servicing stack update.

This Win7 installation still works flawlessly, by the way. I'm typing on it right now.
mikemex wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:54 am
Don't we need to fall back on Lenovo's hotkey integration because the later versions simply don't run (despite supposedly been tested)?
Versions that were tested with Win7 will likely work with Win7. Versions that weren't may or may not work.
mikemex wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:54 am
On Windows 10 I can install 7 drivers without a problem but I can't install the bundled software so I lost pretty much all the functionality I had before. Most software just runs fine; it's just an arbitrary decision to cut you off.
If you cannot install it, how do you know whether it runs fine or not? I've heard of people successfully hack-installing most older Lenovo software (like Power Manager) on Win10. It may even sort of work. But it is not as reliable as Vantage, since it hasn't been tested.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

amlbuton
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#18 Post by amlbuton » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:20 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:19 am
If you use the (contemporary to your model) Lenovo Recovery Disks, you can easily install W7 on old(er) laptops.
Just do NOT run any updates after that, other than missing drivers.
My daily driver T440p had a 'fresh' W7 install from Lenovo T440p recovery disks back in 2018, when I first got it.
Not a single update since, apart from the clunkpad driver!
All Lenovo-bloat programs were duly removed.
It also runs the by now almost antique M$ Office 2010 (only Word and Excel).
As I'm retired, I don't have to worry about work-access and such.
By the time W7 stops fully working, this laptop will probably have given up the ghost.
So do I need W10, let alone W11?
Not me!
Where to get Lenovo Recovery Disk for X301,X220, T420? I want to restore it to use WIn7 as those mainly as backup laptop

RealBlackStuff
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Re: The Great Windows 11 Computer Extinction Experiment

#19 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:46 am

Time to start reading the Forums! Check this.
AFAIK an official X301 W7 does not exist, but T400 W7 will most likely work on it.
X220/T420 can use each other's set.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

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