Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

[MisterB]

The privacy issue is much deeper than Cortana, it is tracking embedded in the OS and its EULA.

There are many reasons not to use Windows 10. Privacy is definitely one of the main ones. Forced updates and lack of end user control over the update process is another.

[pianowizard]

I can't believe I forgot to mention one Windows 8.1 / 10 feature that I love: the Start Menu's right-click menu. Through it, we can access many items faster than ever, such as "Programs and Features", "Device Manager", and "Control Panel".

The privacy issue is much deeper than Cortana, it is tracking embedded in the OS and its EULA.

The EULA explicitly says that most of the tracking applies only to add-on services, which you don't have to use (I never use them). Also, those countless blogs warning about "tracking embedded in the OS" refer to the default state of Windows 10; this tracking can be disabled almost completely. The little bit of tracking that can't be disabled couldn't be turned off under Windows 7 either.

Blogs try to get attention by scaring gullible people. People who are so computer illiterate (e.g. 110-year-olds) that they don't know how to turn off Windows' tracking options should indeed be concerned, but I doubt you are one of them.

Instead of repeating myself too much, I refer you to: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&#p765843

[MisterB]

I'm not getting this from blogs, I'm getting it from people who really take a deep look into what an OS does and do things like check Windows 10's network traffic with a packet sniffer and compare it to other versions of Windows. That is just one test. There are others that bring up that a lot of the data connections to MS servers are hardwired in the OS and bypass the hosts file and other worrisome things. The conclusion is that, if you care deeply about personal privacy, Windows 10 is not for you.

I've already tried Ubuntu as an alternative to newer versions of Windows and now I'm experimenting with a Hackintoshed T60P. Both OSes are much better for online privacy.

[SurrealMustard]

I'm not getting this from blogs, I'm getting it from people who really take a deep look into what an OS does and do things like check Windows 10's network traffic with a packet sniffer and compare it to other versions of Windows. That is just one test. There are others that bring up that a lot of the data connections to MS servers are hardwired in the OS and bypass the hosts file and other worrisome things. The conclusion is that, if you care deeply about personal privacy, Windows 10 is not for you.

I've already tried Ubuntu as an alternative to newer versions of Windows and now I'm experimenting with a Hackintoshed T60P. Both OSes are much better for online privacy.

That's what I've been hearing too. I've had bad luck in the past with Linux as far as hardware/software compatibility goes and can't stand OSX's non-linear mouse acceleration. While the word on the street is that Microsoft is porting some of the anti-privacy stuff over to Windows 7,8, and 9 (aka 8.1), I think I'll just stick with them for now.

I thought the start menu was one of 7's biggest improvements because it allows the search functionality to look for control panel items

This functionality is still there in 10's Start Menu. As a confirmation, I just tried "mouse" like you did.

Good for it.

That's very interesting that you mention that. Windows 7's popularity was partly earned, partly politically correct "microsoft can do no wrong" from the media.

Again, I don't know where you see the "Microsoft can do no wrong" mentality from the media. The media loves to exaggerate how terrible, evil and obsolete Microsoft is, while praising Apple religiously. CNET is the worst in this regard. Windows 10 is really one of the handful of instances where the media has said anything positive about Microsoft.

That's not been my experience. The overwhelming media response has been an on-off pattern (XP good, Vista bad, 7 good, 8/9 bad, 10 good), and 10 falls under the upswing where they'll say that it is the greatest thing ever and criticize it only minimally.

As for the "sign-in screen with the green tree branch", I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Here: https://www.novell.com/communities/medi ... 1748-1.jpg

All I see is that pleasant, hazy blue background eclipsed by the blinding light of epicness shooting up from the corner, bringing a preview of the gifts and magic that you will get to experience after logging in.

__

In my hands, Windows 10 has been unstable. Vista and 2000 are the most stable, with 8/8.1 right behind them. XP and 7 are noticeably worse, and 10 and 98/98SE are even worse. The worst ever is of course Millennium.

Nope, by "speed" I was referring to overall operations, such as how fast a folder opens, how fast a program starts, etc. 8 feels faster than 10, while 10 seems comparable to 7.

Well, stability is far more dependent on [the hardware and software installed by] "your hands". Bone stock, there's not much measurable difference between any of them. And for the record, 98 and Millenium aren't NT-based systems, so they are a moot point.

Security is much more than Windows Firewall and MSE/Defender. XP is notoriously non-secure.

Again, you fall victim to the media hype here. XP prior to SP2 had some glaring security bugs, including the disabling of the Windows Firewall out of the box, which makes it particularly vulnerable to attack, but the same issues aren't present on SP3 or even SP2-patched systems. Most other XP "vulnerabilities" are purely hype.

You have been misled by the media and online forums...Don't believe everything that the media says.

Oh the irony.

[pianowizard]

I'm not getting this from blogs, I'm getting it from people who really take a deep look into what an OS does and do things like check Windows 10's network traffic with a packet sniffer and compare it to other versions of Windows. That is just one test. There are others that bring up that a lot of the data connections to MS servers are hardwired in the OS and bypass the hosts file and other worrisome things. The conclusion is that, if you care deeply about personal privacy, Windows 10 is not for you.

I don't know how you define "privacy". After turning off all the optional privacy settings, the remaining telemetry is just for diagnostic purposes. You have to care VERY, VERY DEEPLY about privacy to mind that. But if you are so concerned, I wonder why you are still using the internet (unless someone else is posting for you on this forum...).

XP good, Vista bad, 7 good, 8/9 bad, 10 good

From this, you concluded that the media has a "Microsoft can do no wrong" mentality? Interesting.

Well, stability is far more dependent on [the hardware and software installed by] "your hands". Bone stock, there's not much measurable difference between any of them.

Is this based on personal experience, or just something you have heard? It sounds to me like you used Windows 10 only briefly, so I don't see how you could be so sure.

Again, you fall victim to the media hype here. XP prior to SP2 had some glaring security bugs, including the disabling of the Windows Firewall out of the box, which makes it particularly vulnerable to attack, but the same issues aren't present on SP3 or even SP2-patched systems. Most other XP "vulnerabilities" are purely hype.

I have seen quantitative studies comparing XP SP3, Vista, and 7. Even when XP SP3 was still supported by Microsoft, it was already far less secure than Vista, which in turn was somewhat less secure than 7, though the XP-vs-Vista difference was much greater than the Vista-vs-7 difference. I remember something like a 5-fold difference for the former, and a 50% difference for the latter. I linked to that study a couple years back, but can't find it anymore.

Oh the irony.

Many bloggers simply misunderstood Windows 10's EULA, and when they bash Microsoft for invading people's privacy, they are referring to the default state of Windows 10, as if the settings couldn't be changed. Such nonsense clearly can't be blindly trusted, and is totally different from the studies about security.

[MikalE]

The worst part of this is not being able to refuse any sort of update they want to feed to your system. You have absolutely no control over it unless you are never on the internet or have an Enterprise version installed.

How do you really know what each of those updates is for or what it's doing. Corporations have been dishonest in the past, or not entirely truthful, and it is still a lie of omission if we are not told exactly what these updates are for and what they do.

[exTPfan]

Many bloggers simply misunderstood Windows 10's EULA, and when they bash Microsoft for invading people's privacy, they are referring to the default state of Windows 10, as if the settings couldn't be changed. Such nonsense clearly can't be blindly trusted, and is totally different from the studies about security.

It's not just bloggers who criticize Microsoft. Read this article on arstechnica which explains that even when you turn everything off "Windows 10 just cant stop talking to Microsoft"

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... microsoft/

For example:

"if Web searching and Cortana are disabled, we suspect that the inference that most people would make is that searching the Start menu wouldn't hit the Internet at all. But it does. The traffic could be innocuous, but the inclusion of a machine ID gives it a suspicious appearance."

[SurrealMustard]

XP good, Vista bad, 7 good, 8/9 bad, 10 good

From this, you concluded that the media has a "Microsoft can do no wrong" mentality? Interesting.

Yes, on a "once-on, once-off" pattern. They make up their mind one way or another and then nothing changes it. For example, they ragged on Vista so much even after Microsoft fixed all the issues, that they basically had to re-release it with a facelifted skin and a couple new features as "Windows 7" to escape the vortex of image. They had made up their minds before Windows 7 even released that it was going to be the greatest thing ever and did the same thing for "Windows 10".

Well, stability is far more dependent on [the hardware and software installed by] "your hands". Bone stock, there's not much measurable difference between any of them.

Is this based on personal experience, or just something you have heard? It sounds to me like you used Windows 10 only briefly, so I don't see how you could be so sure.

I may have only had brief experience with Windows 10, but if the past (Windows 9 (aka 8.1), 8, 7, Vista, and XP) is any indication, I don't see why this should be any different. Sometimes people will say after doing a clean install that "this system is way faster than the old one", even though the result would've been the same if a clean install of the same system had been performed. It's the programs that run on the system, not the system itself.

Again, you fall victim to the media hype here. XP prior to SP2 had some glaring security bugs, including the disabling of the Windows Firewall out of the box, which makes it particularly vulnerable to attack, but the same issues aren't present on SP3 or even SP2-patched systems. Most other XP "vulnerabilities" are purely hype.

I have seen quantitative studies comparing XP SP3, Vista, and 7. Even when XP SP3 was still supported by Microsoft, it was already far less secure than Vista, which in turn was somewhat less secure than 7, though the XP-vs-Vista difference was much greater than the Vista-vs-7 difference. I remember something like a 5-fold difference for the former, and a 50% difference for the latter. I linked to that study a couple years back, but can't find it anymore.

Again, I'm calling media hype on this phantom "study".

Oh the irony.

Many bloggers simply misunderstood Windows 10's EULA, and when they bash Microsoft for invading people's privacy, they are referring to the default state of Windows 10, as if the settings couldn't be changed. Such nonsense clearly can't be blindly trusted, and is totally different from the studies about security.

See the other responses above and below your post.

[TonyJZX]

Two things... Windows is basically 'middleware'... the o/s is just an interface between you and the hardware. I dont get why everyone 'up there' and customers seem to think that the o/s is all that important.

It doesnt 'do' anything for you.

Second, it seems Microsoft doesnt have any respect for people who paid or have a legit license for Win7 or Win8... they are happy to force Win10 on you even though you paid good money for 7 or 8.

They say its benevolence but I see it as disrespect of customers.

Also I think realistically Windows 7 will go good until 2025 or later. With the very late adoption of Win7 in enterprise.... I know companies who only upgrading this year and they expect 10yrs out of their multi million investment, they will get that LTS.

[dr_st]

Two things... Windows is basically 'middleware'... the o/s is just an interface between you and the hardware. I dont get why everyone 'up there' and customers seem to think that the o/s is all that important.

It doesnt 'do' anything for you.

I'd like to see you run your PC without this middleware then.

Second, it seems Microsoft doesnt have any respect for people who paid or have a legit license for Win7 or Win8... they are happy to force Win10 on you even though you paid good money for 7 or 8.

They say its benevolence but I see it as disrespect of customers.

That's baloney and a totally skewed perception of reality. Nobody is forcing anything. Nagging, maybe, but even that can be disabled. If anything, Microsoft is "respecting" Win7/8 buyers by giving them Win10 for free, if they want it. Of course they have their own interest in this, but they are not hurting the users in any way imaginable.

[TonyJZX]

Microsoft are forcing Win10 via updates. That is a fact. They even do this is a 'mistake'. They even force downloads even if you dont want them.

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... 8-systems/

Sure. You cannot even hide updates. They keep coming.

Terrible company.

[dr_st]

No, that's not a fact. It's a half-truth which is worse than a lie.

"Forcing" means there is no way to avoid it and continue using the machine. Even if they started enabling this update by default, and whether it's done intentionally or unintentionally, you still have to manually approve the setup once it starts. It cannot be done by accident. Which is exactly what is stated in this article.

Not to mention, that it should be possible to hide this update and tell Windows to never install it, just like every other update. Not sure why you determined it is impossible.

Move with the times, man. Microsoft-hating stopped being in fashion in the late nineties.

[RealBlackStuff]

Unfortunately M$ keeps shafting us with W10 updates.
I uninstalled and hid them all on my wife's machine about a month ago.
Yesterday they started coming up again, the ba$tards!

[Cigarguy]

Unfortunately M$ keeps shafting us with W10 updates.
I uninstalled and hid them all on my wife's machine about a month ago.
Yesterday they started coming up again, the ba$tards!

Yeah I've had this problem a few times too. Had to go back and manually removed a few updates that slipped through. Sneaky and scumbag move on MS part but the worse part is using my bandwidth precious SSD space to download the update without my consent. Then make it difficult for me to go back and delete unwanted downloads.

[pianowizard]

The worst part of this is not being able to refuse any sort of update they want to feed to your system. You have absolutely no control over it unless you are never on the internet or have an Enterprise version installed.

I agree that is a problem. Actually, I have always installed all "important" updates since Windows 98, so I don't mind such updates being installed automatically. What I mind is the automatic installation of drivers. On four of my computers, older versions of some drivers work better than newer ones, but Windows Update keeps automatically installing the newer ones. This happens even after I have gone to "Advanced system settings" --> "Hardware" --> "Device installation settings" --> "Never install driver software from Windows update". This is the Windows 10 feature that I hate the most.

How do you really know what each of those updates is for or what it's doing.

Each update has a code, e.g. KB2538243, which can be Googled up easily.

It's not just bloggers who criticize Microsoft. Read this article on arstechnica which explains that even when you turn everything off "Windows 10 just cant stop talking to Microsoft"

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... microsoft/

For example:

"if Web searching and Cortana are disabled, we suspect that the inference that most people would make is that searching the Start menu wouldn't hit the Internet at all. But it does. The traffic could be innocuous, but the inclusion of a machine ID gives it a suspicious appearance."

By "bloggers", I was including Ars Technica. Did you read the entire article? The first three quarters of the article make it sound scary, but it's important to keep reading. Of course, the author saved the key point for the end, after frightening everyone first:

"As part of delivering Windows 10 as a service, updates may be delivered to provide ongoing new features to Bing search, such as new visual layouts, styles and search code. No query or search usage data is sent to Microsoft, in accordance with the customer's chosen privacy settings. This also applies to searching offline for items such as apps, files and settings on the device."

See also this article from CNN: Exclusive: Microsoft exec responds to Windows 10 privacy backlash

Yes, on a "once-on, once-off" pattern. They make up their mind one way or another and then nothing changes it. For example, they ragged on Vista so much even after Microsoft fixed all the issues

"Microsoft can do no wrong" means the media likes everything that Microsoft does or makes. That's obviously not the case, since the media blasted Vista and 8. Make sure you understand how a hypothesis is validated or refuted.

Well, stability is far more dependent on [the hardware and software installed by] "your hands". Bone stock, there's not much measurable difference between any of them.

I have used multiple operating systems on the same machine, using the same "hands". I consistently found that on the same machine, XP was less stable than Vista, and 7 was less stable than Vista and 8. This observation may surprise you, but your being surprised doesn't invalidate my observation.

I may have only had brief experience with Windows 10, but if the past (Windows 9 (aka 8.1), 8, 7, Vista, and XP) is any indication, I don't see why this should be any different. Sometimes people will say after doing a clean install that "this system is way faster than the old one", even though the result would've been the same if a clean install of the same system had been performed. It's the programs that run on the system, not the system itself.

The keyword is "should". Real life often differs from "should". After clean install, on the same machine, I don't find 10 to be faster than 7, but have found 8 to be faster than 7.

You really can't say someone is wrong, just because what s/he experiences differs from your expectation.

Microsoft are forcing Win10 via updates. That is a fact. They even do this is a 'mistake'. They even force downloads even if you dont want them.

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... 8-systems/

Sure. You cannot even hide updates. They keep coming.

Terrible company.

Again, did you read the entire article? Its title is shamelessly misleading, but the article itself correctly states that Windows 10 is an OPTIONAL update. If you set Windows Updates to "install important updates only", optional updates are never downloaded or installed automatically. I have chosen to keep using Windows 7 on four of my eleven computers, and Microsoft still hasn't forced me to upgrade to 10, even though the option is there.

[USSS]

^^^
Well said. Thanks for your extended post on this topic. (Memo to everyone: The sky is NOT falling.)

[exTPfan]

It's not just bloggers who criticize Microsoft. Read this article on arstechnica which explains that even when you turn everything off "Windows 10 just cant stop talking to Microsoft"

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... microsoft/

For example:

"if Web searching and Cortana are disabled, we suspect that the inference that most people would make is that searching the Start menu wouldn't hit the Internet at all. But it does. The traffic could be innocuous, but the inclusion of a machine ID gives it a suspicious appearance."

By "bloggers", I was including Ars Technica. Did you read the entire article?

Yes I did --- and they documented their statement quite effectively

[n2ri]

and a company with sooo many online haters for it makes for a much bigger target of hackers attacks than my stand alone lil puter does. so what more security can MS offer than what my invisibility already has. least they make bullet proof vests for real world but nothing even that safe for virtual world. think about it what type businesses are always in the News for being hacked? the huge Corps with millions of customers or the corner Mom & Pop store? not all crimnals are Dumb/in jail. some are smarter than the Corporate geniuses and finance wizards even. I told my last Banker 5 years ago when my debit card was hacked and it took the bank 2 weeks to catch up to the tracking company that froze it 2 hours after being hacked. "dude my money would be safer in the hands of the criminals than your bank!"

[ThinkPad560X]

Does Microsoft even sell the retail version of Windows 10 Home/Pro DVD Disc 32-bit/64-bit?
I searched on ebay and can only find the boxed retail versions of Home/Pro marked on the top back of the box "USB 3.0 Flash" I even went to BestBuy to view their Windows for my self, Its been years since I been their. The PC games and software is basically dead for retail, at least at this bestbuy. They had Windows 10 mini fake boxes marked USB 3.0 and I guess have to ask for the real copy in back. Awhile back I talked to Microsoft chat when 10 came out and asked when the retail was coming out and they said they are releasing the USB flash drive and you can download the iso of 32bit/64bit of Home/Pro. But still avoided my question 3 times of what about the retail DVD release. I prefer buying the DVD version and plus I own all Windows versions boxed, from Windows 3.11 to 8.1 Pro. Also I don't want a download iso as I don't have good internet at All and would take a few days just to download.

I plan on testing out Windows 10 Pro on my IBM tower with a clean install on a stand alone 1TB HDD.
Even though I don't like the collective info, I can still have it off line and will eventually need the new Windows for the new release PC games. Sooner or later Windows 7 isn't going to be supported for new games that only run on DirectX12.

[SurrealMustard]

How do you really know what each of those updates is for or what it's doing.

Each update has a code, e.g. KB2538243, which can be Googled up easily.

That is true to a certain degree. The code will lead back to the Microsoft knowledgebase where it is supposed to be able to tell you what it does, but in the case of the Windows 10 nag and anti-privacy updates, they are just described with the same generic "security and stability update" verbage as so many others.

Yes, on a "once-on, once-off" pattern. They make up their mind one way or another and then nothing changes it. For example, they ragged on Vista so much even after Microsoft fixed all the issues

"Microsoft can do no wrong" means the media likes everything that Microsoft does or makes.

And they do - on a "once-on, once-off" basis. The point is that they make up their mind beforehand no matter how good or bad the software actually is.

Well, stability is far more dependent on [the hardware and software installed by] "your hands". Bone stock, there's not much measurable difference between any of them.

I have used multiple operating systems on the same machine, using the same "hands". I consistently found that on the same machine, XP was less stable than Vista, and 7 was less stable than Vista and 8. This observation may surprise you, but your being surprised doesn't invalidate my observation.

The keyword is "should". Real life often differs from "should". After clean install, on the same machine, I don't find 10 to be faster than 7, but have found 8 to be faster than 7.

If you say so. It's arbitrary and wishful thinking if you ask me though.

Again, did you read the entire article? Its title is shamelessly misleading, but the article itself correctly states that Windows 10 is an OPTIONAL update. If you set Windows Updates to "install important updates only", optional updates are never downloaded or installed automatically. I have chosen to keep using Windows 7 on four of my eleven computers, and Microsoft still hasn't forced me to upgrade to 10, even though the option is there.

The point was that there was a brief time when the "optional" update was checked by default, even if people opted not to accept them automatically.

[n2ri]

Does Microsoft even sell the retail version of Windows 10 Home/Pro DVD Disc 32-bit/64-bit?
I searched on ebay and can only find the boxed retail versions of Home/Pro marked on the top back of the box "USB 3.0 Flash" I even went to BestBuy to view their Windows for my self, Its been years since I been their. The PC games and software is basically dead for retail, at least at this bestbuy. They had Windows 10 mini fake boxes marked USB 3.0 and I guess have to ask for the real copy in back. Awhile back I talked to Microsoft chat when 10 came out and asked when the retail was coming out and they said they are releasing the USB flash drive and you can download the iso of 32bit/64bit of Home/Pro. But still avoided my question 3 times of what about the retail DVD release. I prefer buying the DVD version and plus I own all Windows versions boxed, from Windows 3.11 to 8.1 Pro. Also I don't want a download iso as I don't have good internet at All and would take a few days just to download.

I plan on testing out Windows 10 Pro on my IBM tower with a clean install on a stand alone 1TB HDD.
Even though I don't like the collective info, I can still have it off line and will eventually need the new Windows for the new release PC games. Sooner or later Windows 7 isn't going to be supported for new games that only run on DirectX12.

win10 only installs through update so they can use back door and take over your PC with no trace or un-install option in add remove programs etc. that way you have no clue whats been done or when. sneaky like a snake. more reason to avoid MS.

[pianowizard]

Yes I did --- and they documented their statement quite effectively

Yeah, in a misleading way that scares people *effectively*.

That is true to a certain degree. The code will lead back to the Microsoft knowledgebase where it is supposed to be able to tell you what it does, but in the case of the Windows 10 nag and anti-privacy updates, they are just described with the same generic "security and stability update" verbage as so many others.

Just like for all previous versions of Windows. Some updates were explained in detail, while others simply as "security and stability update". For the longest time, that wasn't a problem, but it has become a problem because some people now suspect every Windows update is harmful.

The point was that there was a brief time when the "optional" update was checked by default, even if people opted not to accept them automatically.

I have four Windows 7 computers that are connected to the Internet 24/7, and have Windows Update set to "automatically install important updates". No matter how "brief" that period was, it would surely have affected these computers, because, again, they are constantly online. Yet, none of them automatically installed Windows 10. I bet those people accidentally reserved the Windows 10 upgrade without even knowing it, so of course they were surprised to see that the optional update had been checked.

win10 only installs through update so they can use back door and take over your PC with no trace or un-install option in add remove programs etc.

Wrong. It can be uninstalled within 30 days of the upgrade, through the Start Menu's Settings menu. I have done that several times already.

[ThinkPad560X]

I searched on all the online buying sites and cannot find the " MICROSOFT WINDOWS 10 PRO FULL VERSION " non USB 3.0 boxed copy. Every single "I clicked on real taken images and not the fake stock copy image" Windows 10 I clicked on label USB 3.0 on the back of the box and the top sticker English USB. I want to confirm if Microsoft officially killed off the DVD retail of the operating system or not. I searched all of last month and this month with no retail 32bit/64bit double disc version but only a OEM 64bit that comes in a envelope that is for OEM installers of building PCs.

A nice large image listing of the retail box of USB version. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICROSOFT-WINDO ... Sw0HVWDuuB

I will say in maybe 2-3 more years the CD will be completely gone for the PC. I think Apple already is if any apple owners want to tell me since I don't use or own any apple products.

[Cigarguy]

I searched on all the online buying sites and cannot find the " MICROSOFT WINDOWS 10 PRO FULL VERSION " non USB 3.0 boxed copy. Every single "I clicked on real taken images and not the fake stock copy image" Windows 10 I clicked on label USB 3.0 on the back of the box and the top sticker English USB. I want to confirm if Microsoft officially killed off the DVD retail of the operating system or not.

A nice large image listing of the retail box of USB version. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICROSOFT-WINDO ... Sw0HVWDuuB

I will say in maybe 2-3 more years the CD will be completely gone for the PC. I think Apple already is if any apple owners want to tell me since I don't use or own any apple products.

Nothing wrong with this. Been ages since I've used my CD/DVD drives. USB drives are so much better in many ways. All my Thinkpads have the CD/DVD drives replaced with a HDD. Only time I ever need the CD drive is to flash Middleton's BIOS on X61/T61 machines. I do have an external USB cd/dvd drive just in case. Glad MS decided to move on.