Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

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Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#1 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed May 17, 2017 11:37 am

Before you go the W10 way, check this:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/setting-up ... indows-10/

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#2 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed May 17, 2017 11:48 am

Spy, crash, or no software. Pick your poison.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#3 Post by Cigarguy » Wed May 17, 2017 7:28 pm

I've seriously started playing around with Linux since Windows 10 came out. Linux, for me, is a viable alternative. I've let friends play with a Linux laptop and do long term trials. A surprising few are liking it very much and have asked me to build them a Linux box. When Windows 7 is no longer viable for me, I'll be switching to Linux as my daily driver.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#4 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu May 18, 2017 11:47 am

I do agree, what distro do you use because i cant speak for the reliable of ubuntu, for what litthe there is.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#5 Post by Cigarguy » Thu May 18, 2017 11:53 am

I tried about 10 different distros on various machines before settling on Linux Mint. Currently running 3 different version of Mint on different machines but haven't decided what flavour I like best yet. It's been stable, easy to set up, and able to run everything I need to run.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#6 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu May 18, 2017 11:56 am

Good to know. Ill try it on my x61s.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#7 Post by MisterB » Thu May 18, 2017 5:02 pm

Almost any version of Linux will run more efficiently and use far fewer resources than Windows 10, 8, 7 or Vista. In one of my multi boot systems, Windows 7 and 10 both require around 1.2gb or more of ram just to have the OS up and running. Mint 17.3 and Ubuntu 14.04 will use about 400mb of ram to do the same. Ubuntu 16.04 is a bit more demanding and takes up around 800mb to run. There are less background processes running in Linux which frees up CPU cycles and ram. The upgrade process is simple and fast compared to Windows and initiated by the user, not the OS. A big update will be around 500mb at most. Windows installations can occupy 32gb or more of disk space while Linux needs 12gb or less. I have a Mint 18 install on a 16gb usb drive with plenty of room to spare. I couldn't even install Windows on a USB drive, the OS and the OS licensing won't allow me.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#8 Post by dr_st » Fri May 19, 2017 7:24 am

There are some misconceptions in the above such as:
  • Using more RAM at startup means being less efficient. This RAM typically includes pre-caching of common applications for faster startup (aka Superfetch), which actually makes the OS more efficient, if you have enough RAM. In fact, all recent versions of Windows are typically optimized to reserve for cache a fraction of the available physical memory - so the more RAM you have, the more they will use.
  • More background processes = more CPU usage / more RAM usage. While it may be absolutely true in some ways, the effect is generally negligible. If the processes idle most of the time, your CPU usage may increase by like 1%, and if the processes don't actually allocate that much RAM, then just their own structures also take a negligible amount of memory. Not something worth keeping track of.
What is true is that Windows generally tends to get bloated in terms of disk space usage, especially once you apply many patches. That's because it likes to keep patch history, caches, side-by-side versions of system files. All this allows you to more easily uninstall/reinstall patches, drivers and components of the OS, and in some cases support multiple versions (e.g., multiple .NET frameworks), but it does eat up a lot of space without a doubt. Some of this can be reclaimed using Disk cleanup, but not all of it.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#9 Post by MisterB » Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am

I always completely disable superfetch and a lot of other unnecessary windows services. So a typical Windows install will actually use more ram and cpu time.

Computer resources are computer resources and and the less the OS uses, the more are available for end user applications. Memory management has never been great with Windows and its high ram usage often results in the system slowing down due to page file swapping. It is not just startup memory, it is the total memory the OS uses I'm talking about. Windows will gradually use up more and more ram the longer it runs.

Apart from the numbers, I generally find Linux to be faster and more responsive. It's issues are not performance where it beats Windows in almost every regard. I find that especially noticeable running Virtualbox VMs which just fly in a Linux host.
Last edited by MisterB on Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently using: A W500, a W520, an X201T, an X220T, an X61T, a 14" T60P, a 15" UXGA T60P, a W700 and a W701.
Currently idle: A spare W500, a spare X61T, a 14" T61, a 15" SXGA+ T60, a 14" T60, and my first Thinkpad, a 770X.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#10 Post by dr_st » Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am

MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
I always completely disable superfetch
Bad idea #1. A leftover from the early Vista period where bad advice from clueless people spun around the internet and stuck.
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
Memory management has never been great with Windows and it's high ram usage often results in the system slowing down due to page file swapping.
Is this based on some kind of research, or is it just another of those "Windows is garbage because everyone knows it is garbage" pieces?
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
Windows will gradually use up more and more ram the longer it runs.
This is rather untrue in the general case.
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
I generally find Linux to be faster and more responsive. It's issues are not performance where it beats Windows in almost every regard. I find that especially noticeable running Virtualbox VMs which just fly in a Linux host.
That much may be true. Linux and Windows are optimized for different things.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#11 Post by MisterB » Fri May 19, 2017 2:08 pm

Most people don't even pay attention to memory management but it is and always has been one of Windows weak areas. I run sessions that can go on for months and and what usually forces a reboot is some sort memory issue, the most common one being excessive page file swapping due to poor memory management and memory fragmentation. It is not totally the OSes fault as some apps like Firefox have a hard time letting go of memory once they get it. So a typical Windows pattern will be more and more memory locked up the longer the OS runs. If you have a session that has been running for more than a few days, it is obvious just looking at the task manager. The same OS and apps using a lot more memory than a few days before.

Superfetch is a totally unnecessary service that does nothing for most users in any version of Windows. I would rather have more free memory than pre-allocate memory for a few select apps. All it does is speed up launch for some apps but doesn't improve performance once they are running. I'd rather wait a couple of seconds than have the system do pagefile swaps because of excess memory allocation. It is not alone on my list of disabled Windows services. I have quite a few disabled for performance and security reasons.

I'm in a good position to compare Oses. All the Thinkpads in my signature multiboot Windows and Linux and most have two versions of Windows. It's not that I'm a Windows hater at all, I'm just giving my impressions of the performance differences between Windows and Linux based on this. In any side by side comparison, Linux wins handily. That is not taking into account the time and bandwidth used by the upgrades of Windows 10 that the article RealBlackStuff started this thread with refers to. There are reasons that Linux dominates both the server market and the internet of things. It is compact, customizable, efficient and reliable. It can run for months on end without a reboot. The desktop GUI is its weakest area but even there, there are many good distros. The most common complaint about desktop Linux these days is to many forks and too many distros. For me, that is not a problem. Where others see fragmentation, I see choice and opportunity.
Currently using: A W500, a W520, an X201T, an X220T, an X61T, a 14" T60P, a 15" UXGA T60P, a W700 and a W701.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#12 Post by theterminator93 » Fri May 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Ahh, memory management. I was going to refrain from commenting but do want to post some observations. I have no problem leaving my Windows machines on for months at a time; my W520 has been up (in active mode - not in standby or hibernation) for 64 days since its last reboot, and is using about 1/3 of its total memory of 16GB with a few programs open (I have to admit, 20-some-odd tabs in Firefox is consuming most of the used memory). My T420 has been up for 28 days and is using 75% of its RAM (which is half of what's on the W520), although there are a lot of AV processing applications running on it presently which accounts for well over half the memory utilization in addition to the memory hogging Firefox with its dozen or so tabs.

I'd be much quicker to blame sloppy drivers and applications for being poor memory managers on Windows than the OS itself.

Superfetch... with SSDs becoming as commonplace as they are nowadays, I would say that superfetch now is much less relevant than it was a number of years ago.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#13 Post by dr_st » Sat May 20, 2017 7:32 am

Indeed. As you see from just the last two posts, anecdotes and personal experiences about memory management are plentiful, and go both ways. I find it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from them. It would be nice to see a good indepth study comparing the differences between Linux and Windows memory management, and their effects on performance in various scenarios. I haven't seen one.

As for Superfetch - unnecessary it may be (few things are actually necessary, that is, mandatory), but it does have the potential to help, and it does not do the harm you claim it does. You won't get excessive swapping, since Superfetch-cached memory is available for your applications - if it happens to have "guessed wrong" and you need to allocate RAM to start an application that was not prefetched, and there is no free RAM available - it will simply discard the prefetched stuff and load yours. So unless your goal is just to stare at your 'free memory' column in the task manager and make sure it is as high as possible, there is no reason to disable it.

There is a good article summarizing Superfetch here:
http://www.osnews.com/story/21471/Super ... orks_Myths
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
There are reasons that Linux dominates both the server market and the internet of things. It is compact, customizable, efficient and reliable.
Not disagreeing with you here (for the most part). Linux's architecture and its fundamental open-sourceness indeed make it more customizable, as you say. The customization allow you to make it more efficient for whatever tasks you want to tailor it to. As such it is a more versatile tool than Windows. But none of it means it is more efficient or more reliable as a desktop OS. In fact, I disagree that it's always true. It can be more or less efficient, more or less reliable, depending on particular configurations and use cases.

Microsoft, by the way, is trying to catch up. It's done quite well with the server world - Windows Server editions are quite good and stable, and are used by many big organizations. That does not mean they are better than Linux, but they are comparable, with upsides and downsides. However, Microsoft's is still struggling with it attempts to make Windows more modular so it can compete with Linux on versatility - the NanoServer / Core OS stuff is not catching up, at least yet.

Articles such as the one RBS linked to at the start of this thread with I really dislike. It's just some Linux fanboy, Windows hater, who doesn't even try to hide it, but under the pretense of "at least make an attempt to keep Windows on it" just posts another rant of how Windows is so terrible, Linux is so cool. Just say that and be done with that, if that's your point.

And, yes, the other kind of fanboys that still think Linux is something strange only for geeks and programmers, completely unsuitable for a home PC, I like just as little.
Last edited by dr_st on Sat May 20, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#14 Post by Cigarguy » Sat May 20, 2017 12:57 pm

Took a while but the Windows fanboy have showed up. I use what works for me and use both Windows and Linux. Too bad if someone dislike a certain post. It's a mostly free speech board, deal with it. No one is forcing anyone to read anything.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#15 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:05 pm

Totally agree with you cigarguy. Dont like osx, dont read the osx section. Dont like windows, dont read the windows section. This forum is for free speech. Dont let this turn into the sega vs nintendo. Well, i wish the x61 had more blast processing :).
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#16 Post by Omineca » Sat May 20, 2017 6:55 pm

I find that if I set up a light Linux system (usually Debian with LXDE), it is much faster than Windows on weak hardware. I'm not sure that a full install of Gnome or KDE would be much faster than Windows. But LXDE is so much like what I enjoyed with Windows 10 or 15 years ago that I have no desire to add the bloat back in...

What I really like about Debian is the update system. I issue the commands, it updates, and we're done. Nothing like the days and days of one processor going full out for no reason on Windows Update on my Windows 7 install. I realize that was probably a bug, but it went unpatched for so long that I gave up on Windows, with the exception of a virtualbox install for updating my phone.

One weird thing I noticed when installing Windows 7 in virtualbox is that the basic install takes up a LOT less disk space. About 7 GB vs about 18 GB when installed to the drive. It's also much less resource intensive in virtualbox. I'm puzzled by both of those differences.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#17 Post by MisterB » Sat May 20, 2017 7:37 pm

In Virtualbox, there is only a simple set of virtualized hardware for the OS to deal with so it doesn't need to install and load much in the way of drivers. That frees up a lot of resources. I still get VHDs of around 25gb when I have a full system with apps but the basic install for Windows 7 is around 13gb.

I've run about 4 months without rebooting Windows and could have gone longer. I hibernate and shut everything down when I'm not using it. That might influence the amount of memory fragmentation but I'm not all that sure of it. What I find is the longer Windows runs, the more memory it puts in the pagefile. If I close and reopen apps, it does free up memory but I like my sessions full on and don't close browsers or log out of anything I've opened until I reboot. It is not really a good habit security wise but it is the way I like to work. In Linux I notice the same gradual increase of use of the swap partition but it is extremely gradual compared to Windows.

In my W520, I've got 20gb of ram which is enough to let me completely disable the pagefile. I don't use it for anything that I want to keep open for months on end either. It mainly hosts VMs and they can be frozen independently of the host OS.

The original article is specific to Windows 10 and I totally agree with it. I gave up on Windows 10 because it is too high maintenance and the upgrades are complete reinstalls tend to remove customizations. I'm posting this on an Xp system I created from Lenovo recovery media in 2010 in a T40 and I have cloned it to multiple Thinkpads and VMs since then. I have never had to reinstall a system after setting it up and the forced reinstalls of Windows 10 are completely contrary to the way I work with computers. Stability is important to me and an OS that insists on a complete reinstall twice a year is not one for me. I'm using Windows 7 and Xp on the Windows side and Debian and it's derivatives Ubuntu and Mint on the Linux side. I have no interest in a high maintenance OS I have no real control over that consumes huge amounts of bandwidth and other resources just to get to a stable configuration. Typing "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" is so much simpler.
Currently using: A W500, a W520, an X201T, an X220T, an X61T, a 14" T60P, a 15" UXGA T60P, a W700 and a W701.
Currently idle: A spare W500, a spare X61T, a 14" T61, a 15" SXGA+ T60, a 14" T60, and my first Thinkpad, a 770X.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#18 Post by dr_st » Sun May 21, 2017 2:17 am

MisterB wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:37 pm
What I find is the longer Windows runs, the more memory it puts in the pagefile. If I close and reopen apps, it does free up memory but I like my sessions full on and don't close browsers or log out of anything I've opened until I reboot. It is not really a good habit security wise but it is the way I like to work. In Linux I notice the same gradual increase of use of the swap partition but it is extremely gradual compared to Windows.
Those are good observations, but I want to ask: why is this a problem?

What I understand from your description is that there is a fundamental difference in approaches between Linux and Windows in memory management - Linux apparently tends to keep what was allocated in the RAM, and not swap it out until you actually need the RAM for something else, and none is available. Windows, if judge by your experience, tends to proactively swap out stuff that it thinks you won't need (or won't need any time soon), so that there is more free RAM for applications that you may start in the near future.

Both approaches have sound logic behind them, and it really depends on what scenario is more likely. In the first case anything that's already open can be retrieved fast, but if you suddenly need to launch a memory-hungry something, you may have to wait until stuff is swapped out to free RAM. In the second approach, you are less likely to hit the RAM wall when trying to launch something, but coming back to an application that you used a long time ago (hours? days?) may require it to be swapped back in. And in either case, as you said, there is no impact on the performance of the actively used application.

If anything, it seems that the Linux approach favors systems where available is much higher than the typical peak working set, since you are never likely to hit the limit, so why page stuff out? The Windows approach may be preferred on systems with low physical RAM, where you can achieve better responsiveness in opening new apps at the cost of stuff that's "stale". You can sort of force Windows to behave more like Linux by disabling the page file altogether, which you did on you high-RAM system.
MisterB wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:37 pm
I gave up on Windows 10 because it is too high maintenance and the upgrades are complete reinstalls tend to remove customizations. I'm posting this on an Xp system I created from Lenovo recovery media in 2010 in a T40 and I have cloned it to multiple Thinkpads and VMs since then. I have never had to reinstall a system after setting it up and the forced reinstalls of Windows 10 are completely contrary to the way I work with computers. Stability is important to me and an OS that insists on a complete reinstall twice a year is not one for me.
These are also very valid points, and I must say that had they been phrased this way in the original article, without the irrelevant "Linux-glorifying", I would not have had any problems with it.

The forced updates and the major milestone upgrades are probably the biggest actual issue with Win10's model. (People will scream "Privacy!" but a lot of it is just FUD and can be disabled anyways). The updates are something that you cannot fully control, and that's a problem. It's all great when it works 100%, but that rarely happens, and it seems that Microsoft engineers just cannot accept (or unwilling to concede) this particular point. I have not had an experience with a milestone upgrade yet (I believe I will soon, as it's time to change my 1607 to 1703), but if it truly is like you say - a "reinstall" that can mess up existing settings, that's a huge issue, and I'm very surprised Microsoft still hasn't figured it out.
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#19 Post by MisterB » Thu May 25, 2017 12:34 pm

Bad memory management is more evident in low memory systems but it really depends on what you do with the system. On this T60P , 3gb is more than enough for 3 or 4 browsers mostly on forums. On my W500 which is used for more serious work with some intense document preparation, 8gb barely does it. In general, I'd rather have memory free for whatever than preallocated for a particular app. Paging should be a last resort, not standard practice.

I decided to boot the Windows 10 partition on my W520 last night. I hadn't used it for a few months and it took me an hour to update Windows 7 and all the browsers and other software I use on it. Windows 10 is still updating after several hours last night and several more this morning. It hung on a video driver update I would have never chosen to install but Microsoft gave me no choice. It didn't insist on downloading a 4gb upgrade to a newer version of Windows 10 like the last time I booted it up but the cumulative monthly update is over 1gb and it has failed to download several times and now I'm going to manually download it when it finishes with another large update. After more than 12 hours tying up my bandwidth, I might be able to use Windows 10. The cumulative update for Windows 7 was only around 120mb.
Last edited by MisterB on Thu May 25, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently using: A W500, a W520, an X201T, an X220T, an X61T, a 14" T60P, a 15" UXGA T60P, a W700 and a W701.
Currently idle: A spare W500, a spare X61T, a 14" T61, a 15" SXGA+ T60, a 14" T60, and my first Thinkpad, a 770X.

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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#20 Post by kfzhu1229 » Thu May 25, 2017 2:13 pm

Hmm that guy in the article doesn't know much about Windows 10... Well as for spying it depends on you, some people don't mind spying like me since I don't think they would be happy to see me naked or my browsing history or a tons of pics of computer components. But it seems like a lot of ppl up here mind about spying huh...
And as the article said for windows 10, I don't really understand why they put upgrade to windows 10 instead of saying upgrading to newer version of windows 10 or something. At first I got confused about that too and that upgrade program is not foolproof too that last time I accidentally reinstalled the same version of Windows 10 while it still says upgrade to windows 10. :| But at least after gigabytes of downloads it led me there. And don't be scared of the gigabytes of downloads taking up your space for long as what it does is it actually puts your original system files into restore image and put the new files in (even if they are exactly the same). If you think your upgrade is very stable and stuff, just go to disk cleanup and delete the backup files (You can't delete by yourself). At that, just bear with the stupid translation since the Chinese translation is even more awkward.
MisterB wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 12:34 pm
Bad memory management is more evident in low memory systems but it really depends on what you do with the system. On this T60P , 3gb is more than enough for 3 or 4 browsers mostly on forums. On my W500 which is used for more serious work with some intense document preparation, 8gb barely does it. In general, I'd rather have memory free for whatever than preallocated for a particular app. Paging should be a last resort, not standard practice.
I found that problem too. I am working with 2gb of ram with T43p and yea forum tabs are a breeze for it. I tried my T530 with 2GB RAM (since it came with 2gb before I put 16gb), my gods it is bottlenecked. I just can't even believe they can sell that machine as fully operational as it even came with x64 windows 7 (my initial impression was it is slower than my T43). Even with x86 windows 7, 8, 10 I don't see the machine fly through as well as my T43 does.
Patience, boys. All good things to those who wait. – Mother Gothel (Tangled)
_________________________________
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
2xT43 14.1" 2.26 SXGA+ 2gb 1*fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
Flexview UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10

dr_st
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#21 Post by dr_st » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:20 pm

I did upgrade Win10 1607 to 1703 last week on my T430s. So far did not notice any issues or any settings reset... The old version of Windows is still there for a couple of more weeks, just in case, then I plan to delete it to free the space. I don't recall every having to unroll a service pack install before.
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

Dekks
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#22 Post by Dekks » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:21 am

dr_st wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
I always completely disable superfetch
Bad idea #1. A leftover from the early Vista period where bad advice from clueless people spun around the internet and stuck.
Not really, it's less=more but with a trade off. Modern hardware renders superfetch moot, don't forget why it arrived with Vista.
dr_st wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
MisterB wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:11 am
Windows will gradually use up more and more ram the longer it runs.
This is rather untrue in the general case.
Depends on version of windows and what apps are running, early .NET apps & VB code are notorious for leaking RAM.
dr_st wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
That much may be true. Linux and Windows are optimized for different things.
Care to expand on that?

In general win10 is the best version under the hood but has other issues which may bite MS on the butt as they push SaaS forward.
Home Win10/i5 Arch//Openbox R61//GNOME 3 X201i/X230 Tablet //Spectrwm T61/X61/X61 Debian 9/X32
Work - Win7/X220T BunsenLabs T43
Retired T60p/T60/X30/X31/X61S RIP T400/T21/X61T/X200T

dr_st
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Re: Compare installing one W10 with seven(7) Linux distros

#23 Post by dr_st » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:08 am

Dekks wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:21 am
Modern hardware renders superfetch moot, don't forget why it arrived with Vista.
Perhaps, but there is also no harm in leaving it enabled.
Dekks wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:21 am
dr_st wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
This is rather untrue in the general case.
Depends on version of windows and what apps are running, early .NET apps & VB code are notorious for leaking RAM.
I cannot speak for applications. The claim (as I understood it) was about Windows itself. I still find it generally untrue. I leave my Windows sessions for days and weeks (rarely, months) without rebooting, and never so any progressive memory consumption issues.
Dekks wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:21 am
dr_st wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 am
That much may be true. Linux and Windows are optimized for different things.
Care to expand on that?
Well, there were some discussions about the differences in approach to memory management earlier in this thread. Other examples I'd have to dig deeper to find good comparative info.
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

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