Windows 11 Compatibility.

[josh5k]

Looks like most Classic Thinkpad hardware will be incompatible with Windows 11. My X230, T430 and T420s have all failed the Upgrade Check. (Just run the PC Health Check utility).

I'm still hoping that TPM 2, would not be compulsory for the home builds at the least.

Even the W541 failed the requirements; so perhaps this new OS is going to be available only on machines released post 2016. A wee bit disappointed.

[dr_st]

There are already some workaround posted for the TPM issue - check the TPM thread:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=132704

I do think there is still a chance they will relax some of the requirements such as TPM 2.0 or DirectX 12.

With that said, all these machines will still run Win10, and Win10 is a great OS and will be supported for several more years no doubt. I am a firm believer in mixing contemporary hardware and operating system, so the fact that I will not be able to run a 2021 OS on a 2015 PC (even if that remains true) does not phase me all that much.

[Ibthink]

So far, it looks like there are two hard requirements that truly matter: x64 CPUs and UEFI with Secureboot.

This would mean T420 and older are out, due to the lack of UEFI with Secureboot. In theory, T430 and up should be fine - it seems like TPM 2.0 and a newer CPU (Kaby Lake R and later) are soft requirements, so the Microsoft will tell you the update is not recommended, but it will work nonetheless.

Source: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... indows-11/

[skx]

join us at the Linux side.... free beer operating systems for all

[ModelMman]

So far, it looks like there are two hard requirements that truly matter: x64 CPUs and UEFI with Secureboot.

This would mean T420 and older are out, due to the lack of UEFI with Secureboot. In theory, T430 and up should be fine - it seems like TPM 2.0 and a newer CPU (Kaby Lake R and later) are soft requirements, so the Microsoft will tell you the update is not recommended, but it will work nonetheless.

Source: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... indows-11/

You are correct. I have successfully installed the Windows 11 Beta on a T430, but it failed to install on a T420 ("This PC Can't Run Windows 11").

[kfzhu1229]

Does the graphics driver install?
Intel HD is probably not gonna be compatible in Windows 11 if the DX12 requirement is a must, but maybe the nvs 5400m might get DX12 support with newer drivers or something?

[farmall]

Some version will be available without the annoying requirements just like Pro and Ultimate versions of W10 differ from consumer versions and clean isos will exist as they do now. Commercial users only care about their use case, not what MSFT wants, and their only NEED to use Windows is dictated by their use of Windows-only applications.

There are years to wait and adapt with absolutely no (functional) urgency. W11 does run in KVM on Linux hosts (per Jim Salter on Ars Technica - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06 ... indows-11/ ) so advanced users who don't need it on bare metal can have it handy. The non-negotiable requirement for modern OS (at least versions for professionals) to run in virtual machines ensures workarounds will exist. It may not run on some fossil machines, but anyone serious can sort that in any number of ways (I keep a variety of VM on my server then access them using NoMachine on my old slow Pads). Old computers can be used for many years as "rich client" terminals where any heavy lifting is done on a much more powerful machine and old servers often go cheap.

By the time a Pad is a decade old it's long paid for itself and there's been ample time to acquire other computers if a distributed workload is wanted. I still get good use from my T61 fleet.

You could for example run W11 on a screaming fast gaming box or CAD machine then remote into that (with one or many of the plentiful solutions) with any old Pad. Remoting into any of my PCs from any other of my PCs gives me any number of OS and software options for no money.

[ModelMman]

Does the graphics driver install?
Intel HD is probably not gonna be compatible in Windows 11 if the DX12 requirement is a must, but maybe the nvs 5400m might get DX12 support with newer drivers or something?

Yes, my T430 only has Intel HD graphics, and the resolution/performance was correct out of the box.
Like others have been saying here, it seems that the only HARD requirements for W11 is x64 CPU and UEFI Secure Boot (and maybe also 4 gigs of RAM. All my Thinkpads have 8 or 16 gigs, so can't test)
The T430 has TPM 1.2 so TPM 2.0 is definitely a "soft" requirement (meaning: not needed)

[josh5k]

Does the graphics driver install?
Intel HD is probably not gonna be compatible in Windows 11 if the DX12 requirement is a must, but maybe the nvs 5400m might get DX12 support with newer drivers or something?

Yes, my T430 only has Intel HD graphics, and the resolution/performance was correct out of the box.
Like others have been saying here, it seems that the only HARD requirements for W11 is x64 CPU and UEFI Secure Boot (and maybe also 4 gigs of RAM. All my Thinkpads have 8 or 16 gigs, so can't test)
The T430 has TPM 1.2 so TPM 2.0 is definitely a "soft" requirement (meaning: not needed)

I didn't bother to actually install the current 'leaked' ROM as of yet. So will wait for RTM for the actual install and find out if they are really soft requirements. At this point even most of the employees aren't dogfooding it yet. So quite early in terms of SKU lockdowns. Their flagship Surface Studio is based on the i7-7820HQ CPU and that's not on the list of supported CPUs for RTM (Currently only 8th gen and above).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... processors

However, if memory serves from Vista days; The supported list was only meant for all features to be supported and doesn't mean that it will not install, and Vista basic ran on most machines released from '04 and after even if in a bad way. So we could really be seeing a revisit to those days of bad messaging and shooting themselves in the foot. They should have known better after all these years of screwed up launches and confusing customers.

PS: In full disclosure - I was part of the Vista launch team looking on with frustration as different messages were sent to consumers from various sections of the company and we on the frontline were left scurrying all the time.

[josh5k]

join us at the Linux side.... free beer operating systems for all

You peddler!

If MS sticks with this lack of clarity or options, there will indeed be a significant jump to Linux. They will already face enough challenges from the M1 based Macs forcing an apple move. Certainly in the Thinkpad community where machines last much longer than the average, Linux is the answer. I've been able to use my T430 on Parrot OS for months now without noticing a difference in productivity and only have had issues with Netflix (DRM issues). So no reason why something more mainstream like Mint or Zorin can't kick Win10 out.

Someone just needs to tell Adobe to make a Linux port.

[atagunov]

Someone just needs to tell Adobe to make a Linux port.

...Adobe isn't just big on photo, it's also big on video, and somebody has given good folks a hint Linux is great. Lo and behold Da Vinci Resolve - free as beer for either of Mac, Win or Linux is fighting tooth and nail to take ground from the big folks - Avid, Premier and FinalCut.

Da Vinci obviously started as colour grading suite. As a colour grading suite it is far ahead of NLE-s like Avid/Premier/FinalCut and is probably on par with other dedicated colour grading software. But DaVinci is growing editing capabilities and folks who steadfastly prefer Linux now have a decent tool to edit video on Linux.

So the way it's playing out Adobe isn't going Linux but there are other companies which are. Re photoshop.. is it for work or for personal use? For personal use I was just the other day looking for a tool to organise the large pile of photos I have sitting on my harddrives. Yes Adobe has got Lightroom for that, but there are plenty of alternatives. And maybe just maybe it's better to entrust managing your photo collection to a free tool that won't hold you hostage. I'm going to give DigiKam a try. It's using SqlLite as the format for its metadata - and that's good, that's an open source lightweight database. We use that at work and are happy with it. It's good as a file format! And while at this.. there are multiple apps for managing photo portofolios and they are trying to have some editing capabilities built in mimicking Lightroom. If you're going to use DigiKam or similar then you could also check out what editing capabilities they have. My keywords for searching online were "lightroom alternatives". I doubt there will be a ti t for tat replacement for photoshop on Linux in the foreseeable future but it doesn't mean we cannot do anything at all with our photos under Linux. We certainly can manage our collections and do light stuff like adjusting exposure, sharpening, cropping etc.

[josh5k]

Someone just needs to tell Adobe to make a Linux port.

...Adobe isn't just big on photo, it's also big on video, and somebody has given good folks a hint Linux is great. Lo and behold Da Vinci Resolve - free as beer for either of Mac, Win or Linux is fighting tooth and nail to take ground from the big folks - Avid, Premier and FinalCut.

Da Vinci obviously started as colour grading suite. As a colour grading suite it is far ahead of NLE-s like Avid/Premier/FinalCut and is probably on par with other dedicated colour grading software. But DaVinci is growing editing capabilities and folks who steadfastly prefer Linux now have a decent tool to edit video on Linux.

So the way it's playing out Adobe isn't going Linux but there are other companies which are. Re photoshop.. is it for work or for personal use? For personal use I was just the other day looking for a tool to organise the large pile of photos I have sitting on my harddrives. Yes Adobe has got Lightroom for that, but there are plenty of alternatives. And maybe just maybe it's better to entrust managing your photo collection to a free tool that won't hold you hostage. I'm going to give DigiKam a try. It's using SqlLite as the format for its metadata - and that's good, that's an open source lightweight database. We use that at work and are happy with it. It's good as a file format! And while at this.. there are multiple apps for managing photo portofolios and they are trying to have some editing capabilities built in mimicking Lightroom. If you're going to use DigiKam or similar then you could also check out what editing capabilities they have. My keywords for searching online were "lightroom alternatives". I doubt there will be a ti t for tat replacement for photoshop on Linux in the foreseeable future but it doesn't mean we cannot do anything at all with our photos under Linux. We certainly can manage our collections and do light stuff like adjusting exposure, sharpening, cropping etc.

DaVinci Resolve or kdenlive are very good replacements for anyone but a ultra-professional working with large teams where Adobe is pretty much the only choice. Lightworks also comes mind, but I'm not sure of how active that team is. In terms of DAW, Audacity and LMMS are the only choices and so lag quite a bit behind Pro apps on Windows.

DarkTable or RawTherapee are good choices in place of Lightroom. DigiKam was kinda cute, but I used it for very little time to have any solid opinions on it.

For Photoshop I'm afraid GIMP is still the best replacement and it's quite a distant choice due to the steep learning curve for photoshop users and a weird GUI in default mode. A lot of third-party workarounds and fixes abound for making it closer to the PS interface, but I found is deeply lacking.

For 3D or minimal video editing Blender is excellent. It is one of the shining pieces of open-sourced applications. Krita is great for artists and illustrators.

The truth however is that, all of these put together only account for about 80% of the capability of the Professional Tools on Windows or even the Mac. Having said that, if one is looking at trying to make the best out of 6 year or much older Thinkpads and Classic machines, that is more than adequate and I see no reason to look further than Mint or Zorin or good old Debian (with iwlwifi).

Heck, the Desktop Managers on Linux will probably be much further ahead in the next four years by the time Windows 10 bids adieu and anyone is forced to make a change. Until then a mix of Win10 and Linux machines will do the job for me.

[timsuomi]

It's been a rollercoaster to follow reddit, various forums etc. discussions and ppl speculation of this W11 update scenarios, mine is:

- any speculation is as good as others as the release version ain't out
- MSFT has done extremely bad in terms of communication
- I would be really, really surprised IF there would not be soft (does not prevent the update) / HARD (prevents) requirements for the update

E.g. for my Good but old T431s the MSFT official PC Health Check app states that my processor isn't supported (Intel Core i5-3337U) yet there are comments that T430 is been able to install the leaked update.

I also HOPE my T431s is and will in the end be update capable for W11. Just ordered a replacement keyboard

Let the speculations continue

Edit: also some new MSFT "news" and speculation about 7th gen (and even 6th gen) processors:
https://www.xda-developers.com/windows- ... yzen-cpus/

//T

[atagunov]

DaVinci Resolve or kdenlive are very good replacements for anyone but a ultra-professional working with large teams where Adobe is pretty much the only choice

Wasn't Avid the only choice in such circumstances?

[TheForgottenKing]

One can emulate UEFI on Legacy BIOS machines using Clover, OpenCore, or other tools. The hackintosh community has been able to get macOS running on other machines for years, I'd be amazed if someone doesn't come up with a bootloader solution to emulate UEFI, TPM 2.0, and Secure Boot on legacy machines.

[olddog]

For those who like to live dangerously, the third beta release of Haiku will come out in four weeks time. Beta 2 is very stable, and perfectly usable, but beta 3 is a good step forward.
Haiku isn't ready to be your only OS, but it's well worth a look. MUCH, MUCH, simpler than Linux, but very fast and pretty powerful.

[axur-delmeria]

For those who like to live dangerously, the third beta release of Haiku will come out in four weeks time. Beta 2 is very stable, and perfectly usable, but beta 3 is a good step forward.
Haiku isn't ready to be your only OS, but it's well worth a look. MUCH, MUCH, simpler than Linux, but very fast and pretty powerful.

But of course, its main limitations are the same as with less popular OSes: limited software selection and hardware support (e.g. no 3D acceleration, Mesa 3D is software rendering only).

[olddog]

For those who like to live dangerously, the third beta release of Haiku will come out in four weeks time. Beta 2 is very stable, and perfectly usable, but beta 3 is a good step forward.
Haiku isn't ready to be your only OS, but it's well worth a look. MUCH, MUCH, simpler than Linux, but very fast and pretty powerful.

But of course, its main limitations are the same as with less popular OSes: limited software selection and hardware support (e.g. no 3D acceleration, Mesa 3D is software rendering only).

True indeed. But it has LibreOffice and a growing number of other applications. Everybody has to start somewhere, and the potential of Haiku is enormous. it is streets ahead of Linux in terms of usability and the time taken to learn it.

What I am suggesting is that people try it, and if they like it they may care to support it in a small way. Linux has failed to dislodge Windows. Haiku has a good chance to do so, because it's simply better.

[ThinkPad560X]

I was just wondering, my highest system I have in my house is a ThinkCentre M93p (tower) It has a intel core i7-4790k 3.60ghz and 16GB RAM. Doing the test for windows 11. I did check the bios and it does have secure boot. I enabled it and now windows 10 pro is not booting and just says checking media Presence...:1962 No operating system found..

My highest of the ThinkPads I have is a ThinkPad T520 (I like my classic ThinkPads) Intel Core i7, 2640m and got 8GB RAM. I just updated to the latest bios, 2018 and has Windows 10 Pro as well. I don't see a secure boot on it unless I am missing it.

[kfzhu1229]

I was just wondering, my highest system I have in my house is a ThinkCentre M93p (tower) It has a intel core i7-4790k 3.60ghz and 16GB RAM. Doing the test for windows 11. I did check the bios and it does have secure boot. I enabled it and now windows 10 pro is not booting and just says checking media Presence...:1962 No operating system found..

My highest of the ThinkPads I have is a ThinkPad T520 (I like my classic ThinkPads) Intel Core i7, 2640m and got 8GB RAM. I just updated to the latest bios, 2018 and has Windows 10 Pro as well. I don't see a secure boot on it unless I am missing it.

Well you are aware on the ThinkCentre if you enable secure boot it also enables UEFI right? Your symptoms really look like you installed the OS using legacy.
And apparently even secure boot might be a soft requirement. There is a youtube video that suggests that secure boot can also be bypassed as a requirement but UEFI surely is a hard requirement, so T410/T510 and earlier are surely doomed.
https://youtu.be/0ww0Y8fM_dg

[RealBlackStuff]

Have you people nothing better to do than play guinea-pig?
Micro$haft will be delighted to read the comments from the numerous eejits that are trying out their new crapware for free!

[timsuomi]

To see Why or WhyNotWin11:
https://github.com/rcmaehl/WhyNotWin11

What a great utility.

Yet I still wish MSFT makes some of the reqs soft, not hard (as my CPU and DirectX seem not to pass...).

With T431s.

//t

[ThinkPad560X]

Have you people nothing better to do than play guinea-pig?
Micro$haft will be delighted to read the comments from the numerous eejits that are trying out their new crapware for free!

I just want to test it out like how windows 10 I tested out. I have a dummy HDD and I just install the new OS on that. I'm still using Windows 7 Pro and Ultimate on my machines. Even have windows classic theme on, so it looks like windows 98/2000. I just like the basic as it was. Even my T61 I'm typing this is Windows 7 Pro x64. Once Windows 7 is completely dead (already EOL) I may just switch to a Linux OS. I don't care to have 10 or 11 on my systems. Too much resources being eaten up and probably sent to microsoft, but like to still try them out.

[josh5k]

Have you people nothing better to do than play guinea-pig?
Micro$haft will be delighted to read the comments from the numerous eejits that are trying out their new crapware for free!

I'm always curious enough to try the next version of the major softwares, esp the operating systems and Windows 11 is the biggest of them all. Big Sur, Android 12, Debian 11 .. One should always be aware esp when in the IT Industry (which I'm back into post pandemic).

[josh5k]

For those who like to live dangerously, the third beta release of Haiku will come out in four weeks time. Beta 2 is very stable, and perfectly usable, but beta 3 is a good step forward.
Haiku isn't ready to be your only OS, but it's well worth a look. MUCH, MUCH, simpler than Linux, but very fast and pretty powerful.

I used to love BeOS back in the day (Late nineties/ Early noughties). So surely looking forward to it. But at this point, I can't see it as being more useful than something like Chrome OS (which is probably far ahead in possibility) or React OS. If I do start to see some decent photo editing tools and audio tools for a home podcast to media consumption OS, I'd certainly try it out full time on a backup machine.

[kfzhu1229]

Have you people nothing better to do than play guinea-pig?
Micro$haft will be delighted to read the comments from the numerous eejits that are trying out their new crapware for free!

Well one reason why I do so is to estimate the amount of lifespan left into business class machines that hardware failure is seldomly a problem.
Yes we can all be stuck on older OS, Windows 7, 8.1, 10 or Linux, unfortunately more "ordinary" lads who are short on money and seriously considering an old business class ThinkPad/Latitude/Elitebook for daily use will definitely be swayed away by the fact that if the machine isn't coming with the latest OS set up and ready to use. That will most definitely drive down the popularity of the models and more of them end up being retired.
With the T43 believe it or not I was in the Windows 10 beta programme and got a free copy of Windows 10 on that T43 as a result!
T43/R52 (ATI only) was the lucky candidate to be capable of Windows 8, 8.1 and then 10 up to 1607, seems like either the T420/T520/W520 or T430/T530/W530 will carry that torch with Windows 11.

[ThinkPad560X]

I just think a PC with specs of a Intel Core i processor (any gen) should be good enough for windows 11. I even had windows 10 pro x64 running on my ThinkCentre M51 Intel Pentium 4 HT 3.0GHz 4GB RAM and it ran just fine. You could even get windows 7 to run on a 90s ThinkPad such as a 600, Yeah it is going to run sluggish but it can run the OS if you really wanted it to. I actually was running Windows 7 x86 on my ThinkPad T20 and it ran fine for web browsing and such.

Here is a work around for time being: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk5B-a7vZ_w

[kfzhu1229]

I just think a PC with specs of a Intel Core i processor (any gen) should be good enough for windows 11. I even had windows 10 pro x64 running on my ThinkCentre M51 Intel Pentium 4 HT 3.0GHz 4GB RAM and it ran just fine. You could even get windows 7 to run on a 90s ThinkPad such as a 600, Yeah it is going to run sluggish but it can run the OS if you really wanted it to. I actually was running Windows 7 x86 on my ThinkPad T20 and it ran fine for web browsing and such.

Well the UEFI is a hard requirement here. Unless you can somehow get UEFI to work on a T510 you are out of luck.
Also, not all configs for M51 can run Windows 10 pro x64. Most can run Windows 10 pro x86, but only a small handful of Pentium 4 and D chips are capable of Windows 10 x64, and getting one of those CPU's preincluded with these machines is not very common. You also need a graphics adapter as the Intel GMA on these are completely unsupported by Windows 8 and above short of heavily modded drivers that somehow enables DX9. But yeah I am also surprised that Windows 10 can run on a LGA socket Pentium 4 system or an Athlon 64 system. I was initially playing around with OptiPlex GX520's that are retired from some schools and I was able to get them to run Windows 10 just fine!
Windows 7 will run on a 600E, but a ThinkPad 600 is not going to work because it has no support for ACPI whatsoever. At least my 600 machine does not.
T20-T22 will also run Windows 7, but the video card driver crashes to bsod as soon as the computer goes to sleep, minesweeper crashes.
T23 doesn't have this issue with the newer S3 graphics but T23 struggles to run minesweeper in Windows 7 (really, because the S3 graphics cannot hardware accelerate to run the fancy graphics in minesweeper)
A30/A30p however will run Windows 7 perfectly fine short of Aero graphics.

[axur-delmeria]

Regarding UEFI on legacy systems, wouldn't something like Clover work?

[kfzhu1229]

Regarding UEFI on legacy systems, wouldn't something like Clover work?

Hmm that's interesting I have not heard of it.
But if that does indeed work does it mean a NVS140M based T61 would also run Windows 11?
Though at that point it's kinda like modding Windows 8.1 operating system to get it to work on non NX capable processors such as non-Sonoma Pentium M's and Socket 478 Pentium 4's.

Also, my previous comment's intentions are to make small corrections based on my own experience, and not to sound any aggressive. Sorry if the wrong message got across.