Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[bgx]

CES would be so fast if we can at least preorder a real machine!


thanks for the news!

[johnny9fingers]

This may or may not have anything to do with the Retro Project, but here it is anyway....
This was posted on Twitter by @lenovo press 10:22 AM central time, and I quote,

"Press hint: Big moves next week from #Lenovo. We #innovate to create the best products for you, your #family and your #home."

Probably new products that may include the Retro Project machine, we'll have to wait and see....

John

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

Microsoft announced the Surface Book last week. And *tadum tss*; with a 13.5" 3:2 3000x2000 display

All Lenovo has to do is take that screen and run with it... in combination with a X220 style keyboard of course. Because let's face it; MS might claim "best in world key travel", but their key surfaces are death flat...

Nor am I waiting for the center of gravity to move higher and more away from me. When using a laptop in a train / bus / etc. I want the lid to be light-weight. So no handicapable tablet, but a real laptop.

[Bibin]

This may or may not have anything to do with the Retro Project, but here it is anyway....
This was posted on Twitter by @lenovo press 10:22 AM central time, and I quote,

"Press hint: Big moves next week from #Lenovo. We #innovate to create the best products for you, your #family and your #home."

Probably new products that may include the Retro Project machine, we'll have to wait and see....

John

"Big Moves from #Lenovo: We #hire actual #labor to do #nothing but #generate posts like #this and call #them #Social #Media #Experts"

[lead_org]

There is quite lot of stuffs that goes into designing the ThinkPad Retro apart from the external aesthetics. If Lenovo wants to release the ThinkPad Retro in the next cycle, they have to use an existing motherboard that is already tested and certified. Otherwise, to do a new motherboard (and new screen factor), it will take the project to the next CPU update cycle. My ThinkPad X220 is barely holding on, i need something with 32 gigs of ram and a proper keyboard. I used my X240 and i can't say i am really happy with it.

[lophiomys]

From your comments I understand that Lenovo does not have the technical expertise to do create a Classic Thinkpad ready at hand.
I remember, for some Chinese hobbyist engineers at 51nb.com it was possible to create a new motherboard for the T50, but the "professional" multi-million-budget company is winging around. We are talking mainly about technical features, which have already been on the market for years.
Not a good sign at all, yet again.

[bgx]

lophiomosys.
stop ranting.
dont pretend to not understand.

of course they can.
But to meet the high level of quality requiered, if they have to reengineer a motherboard, then they would need more time.

The question is:
do we want it fast (people complain the thing is dead), or do we want the perfect machine (taller sceen, etc).

I would actually answer: both.
do a good one fast (16:10 with current mobo would be nice, but they do not have any 16:10 anymore. Would that mean 16:9?), and then propose a next iteration even better (more tuned). Noone wants to buy what they are selling right now anyway (unless they need to change).

my X60s is fine, but i wish i can buy a new computer soon.

[pianowizard]

(16:10 with current mobo would be nice, but they do not have any 16:10 anymore. Would that mean 16:9?)

It seems like Lenovo has already decided to go with 16:10.

Lenovo is probably tempted to use a super high "retina" resolution for this screen, but that would be a mistake IMO. I have been experimenting with Windows 10's scaling on my 3840x2160 monitors, and concluded that after so many years, Windows still scales poorly. Some things work okay, but many things look either weird, or fuzzy, or both. Thus, the most that I would be willing to scale is 125%, which is what I have done for my 28" 3840x2160 monitor.

I think Lenovo should shoot for 170 - 180 DPI. I would like to see these resolutions for the four 16:10 screen sizes below, all of them with pixel column counts that already exist:
12.1" = 1792x1120, 174.7 DPI (1792x768 already exists)
13.3" = 1920x1200, 170.2 DPI (1920x1280, 1920x1200 and 1920x1080 already exist)
14.1" = 2048x1280, 171.3 DPI (2048x1536 and 2048x1152 already exist)
15.4" = 2304x1440, 176.4 DPI (2304x1440 already exists)

With 125% scaling, the above resolutions would be equivalent to:
12.1" 1434x896 (139.7 DPI)
13.3" 1536x960 (136.2 DPI)
14.1" 1638x1024 (137.0 DPI)
15.4" 1843x1152 (141.1 DPI)

[lead_org]

From your comments I understand that Lenovo does not have the technical expertise to do create a Classic Thinkpad ready at hand.
I remember, for some Chinese hobbyist engineers at 51nb.com it was possible to create a new motherboard for the T50, but the "professional" multi-million-budget company is winging around. We are talking mainly about technical features, which have already been on the market for years.
Not a good sign at all, yet again.

I know who you are talking about, HOPE. I meet him in Shenzhen China couple of months back, and working on an investment deal for his website. Anyway, back to the problem at hand. The product that Lenovo is going to create must work, and there are lot of tests that must be passed. Everything seems easy until you actually do it yourself.

[johnny9fingers]

There is quite lot of stuffs that goes into designing the ThinkPad Retro apart from the external aesthetics. If Lenovo wants to release the ThinkPad Retro in the next cycle, they have to use an existing motherboard that is already tested and certified. Otherwise, to do a new motherboard (and new screen factor), it will take the project to the next CPU update cycle. My ThinkPad X220 is barely holding on, i need something with 32 gigs of ram and a proper keyboard. I used my X240 and i can't say i am really happy with it.

The P50/70 might be what you're looking for.......

[bgx]

sure P50/P70 are the same form factor as X220/X240 right?

[johnny9fingers]

sure P50/P70 are the same form factor as X220/X240 right?

Ha ha, not even close. But with great power comes great size and weight ; )
and between you me and the lamp post I'll take power over lightweight every time....

[bgx]

And i ll take a real desktop and a lightweight computer everyday .

[Summilux]

There is quite lot of stuffs that goes into designing the ThinkPad Retro apart from the external aesthetics. If Lenovo wants to release the ThinkPad Retro in the next cycle, they have to use an existing motherboard that is already tested and certified. Otherwise, to do a new motherboard (and new screen factor), it will take the project to the next CPU update cycle. My ThinkPad X220 is barely holding on, i need something with 32 gigs of ram and a proper keyboard. I used my X240 and i can't say i am really happy with it.

So what does it mean practically? If they want to release the stuff in Spring 2016, they'll have to fit a Broadwell mobo instead of a Skylake one?

Since it'd be either a one-off or a brand new series, as opposed to an update to a regular line-up, they could afford to delay the launch and offer the laptop for sale at an unusual time of the year.

From your comments I understand that Lenovo does not have the technical expertise to do create a Classic Thinkpad ready at hand.
I remember, for some Chinese hobbyist engineers at 51nb.com it was possible to create a new motherboard for the T50, but the "professional" multi-million-budget company is winging around. We are talking mainly about technical features, which have already been on the market for years.

On top of what the others have already said, don't forget the certifications. And the manuals. And the packaging. Etc.
All this stuff combined eats up a lot of time and manpower. 51NB didn't have to bother with any of that.

[lophiomys]

...
On top of what the others have already said, don't forget the certifications. And the manuals. And the packaging. Etc.
All this stuff combined eats up a lot of time and manpower. 51NB didn't have to bother with any of that.

That might be true for a 5-person-start-up, having a lot of of enthusiasm, but no experience.
This is definitely not valid for a multi-million company, employing 60.000 people, supposed to have a department dedicated to each of these tasks, you mentioned - and more.
Despite these advantages, it is obviously still a problem for Lenovo, to inform a bunch of money-waving customers, to what product they could expect when.
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... 2282669879


51NB did not have to bother with that, because they intended to create a hobbyist project in their spare time,
not a mass produced product for the world market. Furthermore 51NB does not have 60.000 employees, nor a multi-million budged
(Lenovo's net income Increased to US$ 837 million in 2015 (wikipedia))

51NB demonstrated what is easily possible, if you only want to do it!

[bhtooefr]

I'm wondering if the Retro won't come out until 2017-04-17 - the 25th anniversary of the ThinkPad.

[kony]

I'm wondering if the Retro won't come out until 2017-04-17 - the 25th anniversary of the ThinkPad.

Looks like a good date to set a release date for the project, but I guess it will also be affected by the CPU's release.

[Summilux]

That might be true for a 5-person-start-up, having a lot of of enthusiasm, but no experience.
This is definitely not valid for a multi-million company, employing 60.000 people, supposed to have a department dedicated to each of these tasks, you mentioned - and more.

Sure they do have to resources to do it, but that doesn't mean it can be done in a snap. That's what I was saying. You have to take into account the constraints of a giant monolithic organisation such as Lenovo (something start-ups don't have to suffer from) and the incompressible delays incurred by the certification processes.

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

Ah come on. They have no problem certifying a gazilion of 16:9 junk laptops...

[Summilux]

Ah come on. They have no problem certifying a gazilion of 16:9 junk laptops...

I'm not trying to find them an excuse I'm just attempting to provide some perspective regarding the timeframe; which is the topic induced by Lead's post above.

You can't certify a product before it's nearly production ready, and once you send it for certification the timing is on the institutions' hands - not yours, hence Lenovo can't deliver the Classic Thinkpad overnight even if it has all the components handy.

[ajkula66]

Timing IS everything.

By sitting on the release of this system Lenovo has created an anti-climax.

The excitement is turning into yawn.

[kony]

How so? They only made these polls recently...

[ajkula66]

How so? They only made these polls recently...

I guess that it depends on one's definition of "recently"...

[theterminator93]

I understand the lack of official word related to progress is very anti-climactic, but I'm content for now to know they're apparently doing something - and knowing that, I'd rather they spent the time to do it "right" than rush something out the door. On that same note, I do wish for at least biannual updates saying "yes, we're still working on making something".

[lophiomys]

"yes, we're still working on making something".

Yes, that is exactly what we would need.
In the current situation, all prospect customers are left in the dark, getting message of the kind "it takes time" or "everything is so difficult".
We would need a commitment to a kind of roadmap for a Classic Thinkpad.

[Puppy]

We would need a commitment to a kind of roadmap for a Classic Thinkpad.

Even there will be a one model released I don't believe there will be an upgrade later (the same for spare parts availability). It will be likely the first and last one because it is not possible to sell it in high volumes like typical Lenovo junk. Customer base who is refusing to use anything than classic ThinkPad is very tiny, admit it.

It also comes too late. The only chance is that other vendors starts to copy the "retro" laptop concept as well that happend (fortunately) on digital camera market started by Fuji X100 model. Microsoft Surface Book is a good start to get rid of 16:9 idiocy.

[Jtf]

It will be likely the first and last one because it is not possible to sell it in high volumes like typical Lenovo junk. Customer base who is refusing to use anything than classic ThinkPad is very tiny, admit it.

I agree that if they are going with this, they'll only make a one off design rather then incorporate some off the classic features into the mainline. But I think they'll be doing this or won't be doing it at all because they don't want to hurt the egos of the people who made the 2012 and 2014 changes. Because if they did brought back at least some of the classic features into the mainline, they'll be admitting that they did some bad things so as long as it doesn't cause a mass exodus to other brands, they are in no way going to rethink the mainline ThinkPad design. Once again, the track-point buttons are a special case as replacing them with touch made them harder to use then than other laptops because people kept accidentally hitting them. Therefore it will be the only thing that Lenovo will change back.

Yes I admit the customer base who will only exclusively use the classic model is small but the more important question is what is the number of customers who prefer the classic design over the newer crap.

It also comes too late. The only chance is that other vendors starts to copy the "retro" laptop concept as well that happend (fortunately) on digital camera market started by Fuji X100 model. Microsoft Surface Book is a good start to get rid of 16:9 idiocy.

The only problem is the cultural perception that form is more important than function. This I think prevents them from considering the "retro" design. The thing that always pops up in their minds is "how can I make this product look smoother (and thus eliminate as much buttons and ports as possible)". The think that I find is most laptop manufacturers today seem to only listen to their customers as long as they agree to their preconceived ideas of what the laptop should look like.

On another note, this is not the first time Lenovo has promised to make "retro" features available after the change from the 7-row to the 6-row keyboard. Apparently after the release of the xx30 ThinkPads, they said they were considering to make the 7-row keyboards an option in the future (source: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads ... le.670145/) but they ended up changing so that the customers themselves can't do that like they used to in the xx30. Therefore I think that the only purpose for this "retro" ThinkPad announcement is to keep their customers quiet and hopefully forget about the whole issue altogether.

[kony]

If it sells well they will keep the series and make classic thinkpad 2, 3, and so on, if it doesn't give enough profit, then they won't. It seems really as simple as that to me.

[Ibthink]

On another note, this is not the first time Lenovo has promised to make "retro" features available after the change from the 7-row to the 6-row keyboard. Apparently after the release of the xx30 ThinkPads, they said they were considering to make the 7-row keyboards an option in the future (source: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads ... le.670145/) but they ended up changing so that the customers themselves can't do that like they used to in the xx30. Therefore I think that the only purpose for this "retro" ThinkPad announcement is to keep their customers quiet and hopefully forget about the whole issue altogether.

They never promised anything there. That was a rumor.

Retro ThinkPad on the other hand is not a rumor.

[tiorapatea]

I really am praying that Lenovo make a product out of this. I am still using my T60 with 15 inch SXGA+ IPS, but honestly I am tired of it now, mainly because it seems to put out a lot of heat, and I feel I would like more RAM, a higher maximum screen brightness, and ... that's about it.

I still love the keyboard - not quite as much as my semi-retired T30, but more than my wife's T520, which just doesn't quite have the same tactile feedback.

In my opinion, Lenovo should go 3:2 with this laptop. I think there are a non-trivial number of people who would value more vertical screen space relative to the horizontal, and almost nobody is serving this market. These are people who value productivity first and foremost, which is a good fit for the Thinkpad brand. I assume, without knowing, that 4:3 is just too expensive to source in the anticipated volume, and is maybe too radical a change for the current market.

The big problem is to decide how large to make the screen overall. I have to acknowledge a personal bias in wanting a really large screen, but realistically I think I am in a minority. If you look at the vertical dimension of some historic formats, you see the following:

4:3, 15 inch, vertical inches = 9
4:3, 14 inch, vertical inches = 8.4
16:10, 15.4 , vertical inches = 8.2
16:9, 15.6 , vertical inches = 7.8

My idea would be that in using 3:2, you should aim for a boost in height relative to 16:9 screens, but while limiting overall size. This leads to my suggestion for a screen measuring 12 inches by 8, because it seems like a nice round number, for a diagonal of Sqrt(208) or about 14.42 inches. Arguably, this also makes the screen bigger than the 3:2 Surface Book by enough of a margin (14%) to be worthwhile.

As for pixel density, I would personally be very conservative and favour a size that can be used by people over the age of 35 without much, if any, scaling* (*I realise this is just a limitation of the most widely-used operating systems and software). On the other hand, there must be compromise with the available physical size and the desire for vertical pixels, even if they cannot be seen/used!

This leads me to propose a resolution of 1620 x 1080, for a ppi of 135. This would quell the doubts of those who believe they can use the 1080 vertical pixels on their 15.6 inch 16:9 screens, even though they are crammed in to only 7.8 inches of vertical space, compared with 8 inches on this new screen. As a special concession to pianowizard, I would accept 1800 x 1200 for a ppi of 150.

Needless to say, the screen has to be IPS with at least 95% sRGB, and properly calibrated at the factory. My experience with the T520 would make me cautious about the use of anything with a wider gamut, because software is just not very good at handling this, and the engineering required to offer a choice of gamut that is properly calibrated is going to be too sophisticated for Lenovo to achieve at a reasonable price point.

I guess Lenovo will have to offer a choice of matte or touch-enabled screens. A compromise could be to offer a sane (i.e. low-res) screen in matte and a high-res screen, say 3000 x 2000 that is touch-enabled glossy. I have begun to realise that matte versus glossy is a huge engineering issue in itself, because many matte screens are too grainy, and some glossy screens can have decent AR coatings and a thin display stack that can mitigate reflections. Whatever they do, they need to have at least the option of a display that can be used outdoors/with overhead lighting. Max brightness needs to be > 300 nits.

I spent so much time on the screen because I think that is the most contentious area. It goes without saying that a 7-row keyboard (non-Chiclet), backlit if possible, but with dual Thinklights, and a classic pointing stick, are essentials. More controversially, I favour at least the option of a useable (Synaptics) touchpad, with buttons for pad and stick, and of as large a size as can realistically fit after allowing for the buttons. As an option, a palmrest without touchpad for the truly elitist.

I think it would be essential to have Thunderbolt 3 with USB C 3.1 (with decent power delivery) also, to allow for universal docking stations, external GPUs, fast charging of peripherals (phones) and other goodness. Although, I see that Thunderbolt 3 can only do Displayport 1.2, so 4k output at 60 Hertz would need a separate Displayport (1.3) unless you can use MST.

Finally there is the vexed question of thermal dissipation, and whether to really give room to cool a quad core CPU, a discrete GPU and so forth, and the weight implications.

Personally I would favour going large at the expense of some weight, but only up to a point, say for a sub 5lb weight target. I like the idea of a quad core Xeon with ECC support, 32GB RAM, and a 16nm nvidia Pascal card with a 30 Watt TDP! Not sure if that can be done below 5 lbs. Anyway, I could accept a 3.5 lb target with no discrete GPU, but don't make this thing too thin, please. Metal hinges with room for rear ports, I beg you!

What would be the point of making just another pointlessly thin, thermally constrained, ultrabook? On the other hand, the fullest fat workstation/desktop replacement option wouldn't seem to fit in with their product line, given the current releasing of the P50 and P70. This proposed compromise would be a natural descendant of the 14 inch 4:3 T-series, but with just a slightly greater diagonal in 3:2, to give a very slightly larger total screen area in square inches (+2.2%), and just enough room to cool a TDP-down (35W) quad-core CPU.

p.s. Sorry to keep editing this! A few edits got lost in the forum outage.