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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#631 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:13 am

Why not increase the overall size? If you put the hinges further back, you can get a 9 cell battery without protruding stuff. I find the protruding battery quite nice functionally, but some seem to deem it ugly.

Width-wise it's just a matter on whether you want the put on a numpad or not. If so, you're pretty much stuck at the same width as 15.6" has now.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#632 Post by bgx » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:08 pm

wow. all retro thinkpad blog entries have been taken out from the main lenovo blog page. I could find them only through the design entry... hope it is not bad news!

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#633 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:26 pm

They manipulate blogs on more occasions. Like the "blogs with most comments"; they removed "Change Is Hard: Why You Should Give In to the New ThinkPad Keyboard" from that. There were blogposts that were older and had fewer comments in there, but the one where they got stomped on their attitude about the keyboard degeneration was put down the memoryhole.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#634 Post by Puppy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:44 am

Lenovo have to promote new devices.

I am worried whether Lenovo can/is willing design a new devices without serious flaws. For instance new ThinkPad Tablet 10 2nd Gen have excessive CPU throttling even under normal load while web browsing. According users it is much worse than previous generation. Lenovo have just confirmed the issue. How comes they release a product (having premium price tag) with such basic functionality failure ? No one at Lenovo have ever tried to use the device before release ? Otherwise they would have to find the issue immediately. I fear the Retro ThinkPad might have similar quality then :?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#635 Post by bgx » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:28 am

physical quality issue is important.

for TPT10 gen 2, it is the curse of mobile device. You make them as small as possible, with no/limited active cooling, and then when they get too hot they throttle. Every phone does that. You have 2Ghz Broadcom/Samsung/apple chip, but how much of their time do they spend at 2Ghz? Very little. The speed is here only for burst, they cannot sustain any of the maximal power.

If you wanted a slim tablet, then leave with it. Else buy something else.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#636 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:06 am

There really isn't anything right now that will make Thinkpadders Rejoice... :cry:

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#637 Post by bgx » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:54 pm

it seems likely we will need to wait for CES...

only 2 more months to go!

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#638 Post by bgx » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:06 pm

http://winfuture.de/news,89654.html

interesting to see the link, even though nothing much new.

X1 tablet with 3:2 screen is nice.
X1 with wireless docking and charging, why not.

Rest seems pretty similar to the **50 serie, with skylake.

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#639 Post by Puppy » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:44 pm

bgx wrote:X1 tablet with 3:2 screen is nice.
Another step toward 12" 3:2 notebook.
bgx wrote:Rest seems pretty similar to the **50 serie, with skylake.
Unfortunately :(
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#640 Post by Pokrzept » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:40 pm

Another year without Thinkpad - hooray ... but wait Dell decided to ruin their workstations too :help: :help: :help:
P70 / W530 / W700 and 30 more :roll:

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#641 Post by pianowizard » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:03 pm

Pokrzept wrote:Another year without Thinkpad - hooray ... but wait Dell decided to ruin their workstations too :help: :help: :help:
You got me curious, so I looked up info about the new Precisions. The Ultrabook-class Precision 5510 seems better than the M3800 in every single way, including a lower price. The mainstream Precision 7510 still has touchpad buttons and a trackpoint. The keyboard is chiclet, versus the M4800's "pseudo-chiclet" keyboard, but the key surface still seems properly curved just like recent Thinkpads' keyboards. The design also looks more attractive IMO. On the other hand, the optic drive is gone -- is that what you dislike?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#642 Post by Ibthink » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:32 pm

I guess he is referring to the fact that Dell does the same thing now that Lenovo already did with the W540 two years ago - that is, modernizing their Workstation models.

The design of the new Precisions is much closer to the Latitude 7450 design than before. Its not the "square brick" that is was before, its a bit thinner, more rounded. As you noted, they adopted the Chiclet keyboard that they used with the Latitude 7450 already. Volume buttons are now integrated in the keyboard, and the latches are gone. Oh, and the most controversial change of the keyboard: Home and End are no longer dedicated keys - instead, you have to press FN + Arrow Left/Right now. Seems to be one of the biggest complaints in the Dell forums...

The new models also loose a lot of the Legacy ports like VGA (as all Skylake notebooks & ThinkPads), eSATA or Full-Size Displayport. For that you now have Thunderbolt 3/USB Type C and Mini-Displayport. Also, the models feature a combined Headphone-In/Microphone-Out, as ThinkPads do since 2009/2010.

As far as expansion options go, both machines loose the Multibay DVD drives + the mSATA port, as well as Expresscard. The 7510 now has one 2280 M.2 slot + the standard 2.5" slot, the 7710 has two of those M.2 slots + the standard 2.5" slot.

Its kind of a funny situation: Dell does this now, as Lenovo backtracks some of the things they did with the W540, with the release of P50 & P70. So with the new models, the situation is reversed: Now Lenovo has the advantage when it comes to specs, and Dell is lacking behind - last year Dell had the advantage in the workstation segment^^
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#643 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Ibthink wrote:Oh, and the most controversial change of the keyboard: Home and End are no longer dedicated keys - instead, you have to press FN + Arrow Left/Right now. Seems to be one of the biggest complaints in the Dell forums...
Well yeah, who makes that stuff up? Do they dump a bunch of designers in a conference room with a kg of weed? Seriously; Why? How? Who comes up with that stuff?

One of the things there *should* be a market-wide standard is the keyboard layout. Instead; every firm uses a different one for each productline. Great. No buying a new laptop without getting used to a new layout.
However, where there is a default, is the sreen aspect ratio; it's all 16:9; they settled on the wrong one :eek:

Are they going to remove the delete key next? Just make it Fn+Backspace. Then remove some more ports, add more proprietary stuff, downsize the cooling, raise the price by $500, add a backlight-leak in the form of a cranberry ("nature's most disgusting berry" :lol: ), remove the docking port. And voila; they're almost done copying Apple. But guess what; might just as well buy the original then, at least that yields a 16:10 display

:roll:
Ibthink wrote: The new models also loose a lot of the Legacy ports like VGA (as all Skylake notebooks & ThinkPads), eSATA or Full-Size Displayport. For that you now have Thunderbolt 3/USB Type C and Mini-Displayport. Also, the models feature a combined Headphone-In/Microphone-Out, as ThinkPads do since 2009/2010.
And when you give a presentation pretty much anywhere you need a HDMI > VGA or DP > VGA adapter. But I guess VGA has to begin to die at some point... just too bad *they* didn't settle on a new universal interface. So now there are laptops with (besides VGA) only (full/mini)(DP/HDMI).

Thunderbolt is a lousy and pricey excuse if you already have eSata drives. Especially because eSata is a pretty much free option; they just have to run 4 lanes to a USB port and make that into a eSata / USB combo port, like they had in the past. For any SATA drive out there it's also the fastest and most efficient way to connect it externally. The removal of Expresscard also means you can't add it in a decent way.
Ibthink wrote: As far as expansion options go, both machines loose the Multibay DVD drives + the mSATA port, as well as Expresscard. The 7510 now has one 2280 M.2 slot + the standard 2.5" slot, the 7710 has two of those M.2 slots + the standard 2.5" slot.
In short; on the storage side the 7510 loses one 2.5" spot (vs the M4800 with HDD caddy) and the 7710 loses two 2.5" spots (vs the M6800 with HDD caddy) but adds a minicard slot.
Ibthink wrote: Lenovo backtracks some of the things they did with the W540, with the release of P50 & P70
Touchpad buttons? What else?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#644 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:22 pm

Perhaps their design follows a circle

W520; great keyboard
W530; bad layout
W540; bad touchpad on top of that
W541; undid removal of trackpoint buttons
P50; undid removal of touchpad buttons
P51; undid bad keyboard layout :mrgreen:
..
P53 ; 16:10 screen :D

The only question that remains; will the *20's live that long? :P
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#645 Post by Ibthink » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:30 am

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:
Ibthink wrote: Lenovo backtracks some of the things they did with the W540, with the release of P50 & P70
Touchpad buttons? What else?
- Lenovo also returns some status LEDs to their workstation models, the HDD indicator, a charging indicator, CapsLock indicator as well as a Numlock indicator.

- They offer dedicated volume buttons on P50 & P70 again, also a complaint about W540 and W541 - they are located at the top of the Numblock.

- Offering an IPS FHD display (W540 & W541 had FHD TN Displays), which means P50 & P70 are IPS only models. Also offering a 4K IPS display with a really high gamut (90-98 % of NTSC, vs. 92 % of sRGB for the W540/W541 3K IPS Display)

- W540 and W541 were very much focused on light-weight, which may have impacted the build quality a bit negatively. P50 & P70 now not only offer a traditional structure frame (as W540 & W541 did), but also a Magnesium base-unit, which weighs more, but also is more stable.

- Full-Size M.2 ports instead of half-size

- Dual-Cooling, which hopefully resolves the cooling issues W540 & W541 had

- Original black color (ok, I admit, thats a pretty minor point :D)
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#646 Post by Pokrzept » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:07 am

Sorry for my late response I've been busy with my another hobby - legacy/obsolete mechanical piece of hardware that is running on petrol instead of electric fuel :D. But back to topic - picture 1st:
Image
Please tell me what should I like in that design - I'd like to remind you that this is Latitude E65xx descendant:
1st: There's plenty of unused space just look at this side bars around keyboard;
2nd connected to 1st one: keyboard what happend to numeric keypad ? I'm not a fan of this part but why did they removed it and put alot of useless plastic frames instead ?! And why for gods sake chicket keys ? It's most unconfortable solution for human-machine interface. What will they do next, put another touch sensitive screen instead of phisical keys ?;
3rd: Trackpoint - oh wait there's no trackpoint anymore...;
4th:Body structure - it looks like it is gonna break on 1st contact with anything that is more rigid than cushion;
Please just look few years back how did Dell laptops looked like and you'll find similiar design out there - Dell Vostro V13. You can also check price tags for that year models and you'll find out that such a products costed as much as 1/2 of Latitude laptop. Yet it might be more expensive than last year models ...

Thank god there's still 7000 serie - it looks like E6540 clone with chiclet keyboard but still might be - together with HPs ZBooks - only reasonable solution for 2016.

Image


I really do not want to whine and cry all time long but lets be serious, what was the idea of mobile workstation ? It was and still should be an powerful and undestructable product for engineers and specialists who need to work on the move once in a while. Please tell me that this little fragile piece of cover will protect my VERY EXPENSIVE AWESOME IPS SCREEN from mechanical tension and hence imprints, keyboard marks and in most extreme situation breaking. And when it happens what should I tell my Client when he'll ask me why I cannot start-up his production on time ? That he'll lose hundred tousands of dollars coz Dell decided to safe few bucks per unit and unificate his ultrabook products and due to that my working tool cannot meet basic industrial standards and now I have to wait for Dell technican to come and replace broken screen or motherboard? Or maybe I should buy 2nd one and carry two just in case when one gonna break ? :banana: :banana: :banana:
P70 / W530 / W700 and 30 more :roll:

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#647 Post by pianowizard » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:50 am

Pokrzept wrote:Please tell me what should I like in that design - I'd like to remind you that this is Latitude E65xx descendant:
Your "reminder" is incorrect, because the Precision 5510 descended from the Precision M3800, which (along with the XPS 15 UltraBook) was designed from scratch, so it didn't descend from anything.
Pokrzept wrote:Thank god there's still 7000 serie
I can't imagine myself buying any of the 6-to-8lb Precisions, but am mildly interested in the 4-lb 5510. The traditional models and the UltraBook models serve different customer segments.
Pokrzept wrote:what was the idea of mobile workstation ? It was and still should be an powerful and undestructable product for engineers and specialists who need to work on the move once in a while.
But there are also people like me who want power and mobility. The InfinityEdge screen keeps the footprint small, and the ~4lb weight is nice too. As long as the clickpad isn't as awful as the T540p's, I believe I can live with it. On the other hand, 3840x2160 on a 15.6" screen might be a problem. I wish it was 2560x1440.
Pokrzept wrote:Image
The screen and bezel look glossy like a $300 Inspiron.
Last edited by pianowizard on Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#648 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:01 am

This is what Lenovo have to say about rugged laptops: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/rugged-l ... thers-dont

Pay particular notice to the DATE of that blog!

And if you want RUGGED, look here: http://laptops.reviewed.com/features/th ... s-on-earth
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#649 Post by bhtooefr » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:45 am

Regarding that 7510's glossy display: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads ... t-10122286
Dell-Mano_G wrote:The FHD panels are IPS panels and the UHD panels are IGZO panels.
All the panels are matte except for the touch versions of the FHD panel on the 7510. The 7510 has both FHD touch (glossy) and non-touch (matte).
So, if you don't get FHD touch, you don't get a glossy panel.

(Disclaimer: I work for Dell, but I've got nothing to do with sales, I work in Services, and I'm not representing Dell with this post. I'd guess that I'll be seeing 7510s in the future, based on what the client I support has ordered in the past.)

Oh, and if you don't mind short travel, the latest keyboards (based on the E5250s and E5450s that my client is deploying) are actually pretty nice feeling.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#650 Post by fatpolomanjr » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:51 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:And if you want RUGGED, look here: http://laptops.reviewed.com/features/th ... s-on-earth
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#651 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:16 pm

That 7510 pictured above looks like a Tablet clicked into a slightly more matte gray plastic attached to a keyboard with enough weight to prevent the whole thing from tipping over.

So it's either useless glossy or useless small pixels? Lol!

Oh well, all of this is offtopic anyway :BAAAD!:
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#652 Post by Pokrzept » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:25 am

pianowizard wrote:
Pokrzept wrote:what was the idea of mobile workstation ? It was and still should be an powerful and undestructable product for engineers and specialists who need to work on the move once in a while.
But there are also people like me who want power and mobility. The InfinityEdge screen keeps the footprint small, and the ~4lb weight is nice too. As long as the clickpad isn't as awful as the T540p's, I believe I can live with it. On the other hand, 3840x2160 on a 15.6" screen might be a problem. I wish it was 2560x1440.
@pianowizard I do perfectly understand you but lets not mix two things. When you need a mobility with a proper power you definatly should search for an smaller footprint 13-14" laptop with a standard voltage dualcore HT enabled i7. It might be a little bulky but it's small enough to maintain weight limits and still - thanks to a proper CPU - can provide enough computing power. 15.6" thin ultrabook with monsterhog footprint and a lousy throttling ULV cpu is neither mobile nor powerful. On the other hand there's a proper mobile workstation that incorporates quadcore HT enabled I7's. Yes it is huge and heavy but it provides desktop class computing power and actually CAN DISIPATE large amount of generated heat. You can't get one without another unless you have gods powers and you can bent physics laws. Example - i7-4800MQ in my M4800 heats up without load up to 55 Celcius degrees, but whenever i stress it a little bit temperature jumps to 70s with a speed of light. Can you imagine what would happen if someone would put such an CPU to W550s or M5510? I can already imagine average programmer that wants to compile his project on which he worked with his coleagues for last few months, and when he starts compiler his computer turns into colorful fireworks or run @ 700 MHz for next 45 minutes :roll: :roll: :roll: .

That's my humble personal opinion.
Last edited by Pokrzept on Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#653 Post by Puppy » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:37 am

Pokrzept wrote:and when he starts compiler his computer
That's oldfashioned. He starts compiler on a cloud service these days :D
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#654 Post by Puppy » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:41 am

pianowizard wrote:On the other hand, 3840x2160 on a 15.6" screen might be a problem. I wish it was 2560x1440.
2560x1440 is a problem while 3840x2160 is ok because when 200% zoom used you get 1920x1080. These high resolutions allows me to use text aliasing I can't stand on lower ones. IOW 1280x800 on 8" tablet is a pain to use while 1920x1200 is finally readable for me.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#655 Post by lead_org » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:52 pm

So a little update for you all, Lenovo still working very hard on the ThinkPad Retro project. A team of Taiwanese diehard ThinkPadders will visit Lenovo Yokohama next week, and they will be briefed on all things ThinkPad (and some details on Retro). Apparently, right now the bottleneck for Retro project is on sourcing the screen. for 13.3 inches 16:10 and 15.4 inches 16:10 IPS screens are all exclusively produced for Apple. But i am guessing CES we will see the prototype for the Retro ThinkPad.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#656 Post by bgx » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:05 pm

so get a 3:2 12+"! That exists, good quality, and not for Apple only.

thanks on the update anyway. let s hope to see some news, even if we cannot buy anything at CES.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#657 Post by Summilux » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:55 pm

Yeah, 3:2 it is.

Nobody want 16:9, 16:10 is monopolised by Apple... the only acceptable format that remains, as evidenced by the surveys, is 3:2. (4:3 being realistically out of the picture).

If Lenovo isn't too stupid to fall back on 16:9, I'll have to thank Apple for the exclusive contrats they've negotiated.

I wish we knew who the the Taiwanese diehards are, so we could whisper them to lobby Lenovo about 3:2. I guess if they're diehards they'll come to the same conclusion as us, but one never knows.

In the meantime I'd like to thank you once again Lead for the info you provide us with.

Edit: If one thing is certain, BGX, it's that we won't get to buy anything at CES; which is two months away thus far too early. See, Lenovo hasn't even set on the screen size.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#658 Post by Tasurinchi » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:04 am

Summilux wrote:I wish we knew who the the Taiwanese diehards are
+1 ^^

I'd like to share a couple of beers with them :wink:
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600X
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#659 Post by 600X » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:13 am

Or just go with the 3:2 13.5" display of the Surface Book. This is the middle path in both aspect ratio and screen size.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#660 Post by Saucey » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:16 am

Tasurinchi wrote:
Summilux wrote:I wish we knew who the the Taiwanese diehards are
+1 ^^

I'd like to share a couple of beers with them :wink:
Same. I wonder if their mods are any different then ours, or even better!
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Current: PixelBook, Y50-70, T430
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