Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[Ibthink]

No, you are mistaken there. There was no plan in the beginning, as the images show a concept render, not a real product. The plan was to see if there was interest first before deciding anything.

[lophiomys]

By keeping the prospect customers in the dark about the specifications and price of 25th. Anniversary Thinkpad, they risk to loose quite a bit of money. Good CRM looks different. Waiting for something diffuse, which the paying customer does not/cannot understand, is very bad.
Remembering the last anniversary edition was a big disappointment too.

[Puppy]

The plan was to see if there was interest first before deciding anything.

http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... -to-think/

The passion for the concept and survey participation rate continues to amaze me and others at Lenovo. On average each survey has had approximately 13,000 respondents. By any standards that’s a lot.

Does it indicate low interest so Lenovo ended up with such ridiculous product? Or was it due to lack of additional 2000 respondents to meet the magic number?

[Ibthink]

Does it indicate low interest so Lenovo ended up with such ridiculous product?

No, it doesn´t. The response is the whole reason why they are doing anything at all.

[Puppy]

No, it doesn´t. The response is the whole reason why they are doing anything at all.

I see. What response would be required to deliver product that deserves ThinkPad Anniversary flag? That means ThinkLight, LED status indicators, non-flat display bezel and 16:10 or 3:2 display.

One million respondents, 100000 preorders ... ? My opinion remains, Lenovo didn't want the project to happen.

[Summilux]

Incase anyone is interested, I put together a little comparison between the T92 and the Retro

A useful comparison, thank you

[Summilux]

No, you are mistaken there. There was no plan in the beginning, as the images show a concept render, not a real product. The plan was to see if there was interest first before deciding anything.

So you're telling us they had zero idea of what they wanted to make ? If that's the case, why did they bother to make exotic renders instead of just photoshopping a classic keyboard on a production model ?

And why would you use one concept to check someone's interest, and then expect this person to be happy when you show him another completely different concept ?
That's like saying "Hey I'm thinking about making a luxury three-story house, would you buy it ?" and then two years later sending an email to your potential client saying "Yo here's your garden cabin, that'll be 2500€ + tipp".

[Summilux]

The response is the whole reason why they are doing anything at all.

Then why are they not doing what we voted for ?
Why are they not listening to us ? They are the ones who asked for our input.

[Puppy]

So you're telling us they had zero idea of what they wanted to make ?

I don't think so, I still believe they wanted to make it but the Lenovo management had ruined the plan at all later. It is a question whether it would be better to cancel the project rather than introduce something like what we can see now but I understand both options. Personally I am all-or-nothing rather than making compromises person

In any case, I no longer need a laptop for everyday work. I just wanted to have the Retro ThinkPad but now my interest to buy it is almost zero (especially if it is going to be overpriced and without WQHD option). Small AMD Ryzen based PC is on the way as X220 upgrade I use most of the time in dock as PC anyway.

[Ibthink]

If that's the case, why did they bother to make exotic renders instead of just photoshopping a classic keyboard on a production model ?

Its called "brainstorming". Putting an idea out there and then see if there is a response. They never said "we will make this concept render into a real machine".

Then why are they not doing what we voted for ?

And there you are, contradicting yourself. What were they supposed to do - make the machine they showed in the concept render, or create an (impossible) machine that is made according to the polls? According to your logic, both is wrong, either they don´t listen to you, or they lied by showing a concept render that they didn´t make...

What they are offering as ThinkPad 25 is based on the polls, but of course also on what they (Lenovo PC management) saw as realistically possible to make and sell. A compromise, so to speak. Maybe not a very good compromise, but its more than nothing. Its still a new ThinkPad with the classical keyboard.

And that is more than you or other people in this forum thought would happen. Just a reminder: No one here believed Lenovo would do anything at all and that they had dropped the project all-together. That was just a few months ago.

The truth is: No matter what they would have done, there always would have been people who were unhappy, because its not the personal dream machine that everyone imagined when they did the polls.

[pianowizard]

Its called "brainstorming". Putting an idea out there and then see if there is a response. They never said "we will make this concept render into a real machine"....The truth is: No matter what they would have done, there always would have been people who were unhappy, because its not the personal dream machine that everyone imagined when they did the polls.

For once I actually agree with you, but I question why David Hill claimed to be so very excited ("Epic!" "I feel so pumped!") about this boring Retro Thinkpad, whose main "retro" feature is the classic keyboard. Either he lied, or he really, really hates the non-classic keyboard. But didn't he explain several years ago how the non-classic keyboard was superior to the classic keyboard? So, either way, he lied!

UNLESS, that leaked photo isn't the real Retro Thinkpad! That's now the only way he could redeem himself.

Finally, I wonder whether lead_org (who started this "Thinkpadders Rejoice" thread) is rejoicing now...

[Ibthink]

I can´t speak for David Hill. I do think he is very honestly excited, because for him as a designer, the ThinkPad 25 does represent a victory over the management who forced him to pursue a different direction than he wanted. After all, the ThinkPad is his life-work and ThinkPad 25 was his pet-project. And I also think that for him as a designer, the visual design is more important than the aspect ratio question.

From his personal website:
David has often been challenged to abandon the ThinkPad design, however, he has used keen management skill, persuasive arguments, and inventive actions, to preserve and evolve the essence of the original 1992 concept.

UNLESS, that leaked photo isn't the real Retro Thinkpad! That's now the only way he could redeem himself.

It is the real deal.

I don´t think he has to redeem himself for anything. Without David, there wouldn´t be any ThinkPad 25.

Finally, I wonder whether lead_org (who started this "Thinkpadders Rejoice" thread) is rejoicing now...

I think so. After all, he managed to convince first David and Lenovo to pursue this project and produce a new ThinkPad with the Classical 7 Row keyboard. And that is more than anyone else in this forum has ever done for the ThinkPad brand...

[Summilux]

Its called "brainstorming". Putting an idea out there and then see if there is a response. They never said "we will make this concept render into a real machine".

Lenovo's concep of brainstorming :
- Do you like this idea ?
- Yes.
- Great. We will only implement 10% of it.

What were they supposed to do - make the machine they showed in the concept render, or create an (impossible) machine that is made according to the polls? According to your logic, both is wrong, either they don´t listen to you, or they lied by showing a concept render that they didn´t make...

No, my logic is sound and doesn't contradict itself : the render showed a real classic spirit, and so did the polls. There was a complete agreement in terms of ideals.

Now if you compare the same polls to the T470-25 - that's where the real contradiction lies.

What they are offering as ThinkPad 25 is based on the polls, but of course also on what they (Lenovo PC management) saw as realistically possible to make and sell. A compromise, so to speak.

10% polls, 90% Lenovo. Does this sound like a fair and balanced compromise to you ?

Just a reminder: No one here believed Lenovo would do anything at all and that they had dropped the project all-together. That was just a few months ago.

Yeah because after two years (!) of almost non existent communication on the part of Lenovo, even though we were supposed to stay actively informed from the start, it was a completely normal conclusion to reach.

The truth is: No matter what they would have done, there always would have been people who were unhappy, because its not the personal dream machine that everyone imagined when they did the polls.

But there are different levels of disappointment, which you omit to tell. There's a huge difference between seeing Lenovo implement 3:2 instead of 4:3, and seeing Lenovo implement 16:9 instead of 3:2. You know it.

[RealBlackStuff]

It is the real deal.

You can write and defend all you like, but the facts remain:
- switching over to 16:9 is the most stupid thing ANY laptop manufacturer could have ever done, and
- killing the classic keyboard is the most stupid thing Lenovo has ever done (so far).
Fat lot of good this one-off Retro-floptop is going to do!

[Summilux]

I think so. After all, he managed to convince first David and Lenovo to pursue this project and produce a new ThinkPad with the Classical 7 Row keyboard. And that is more than anyone else in this forum has ever done for the ThinkPad brand...

I think everyone is sympathetic to Lead_org for the work he's done behind the scenes - regardless of the final output.

But realise that he could do this because he was already an "insider" so to speak. He had a foot in the company. None of us here enjoyed the same situation, so it's not fair to compare what he has accomplished from his position, and what we couldn't from our own less-privileged position.

Now just a few posts above I've advocated for connecting with the guys at 51nb, which could hypothetically yield some satisfying results. So it's not like we aren't trying at all, even from our under-privileged position.

[pianowizard]

I think so. After all, he managed to convince first David and Lenovo to pursue this project and produce a new ThinkPad with the Classical 7 Row keyboard.

I reread lead_org's old posts. He talked mostly about getting a taller-than-16:9 panel, and mentioned specifically 13.3" 16:10 panels such as the MacBook and X300 panels. He didn't seem to care at all about the classic keyboard.

And that is more than anyone else in this forum has ever done for the ThinkPad brand...

Believe me, I wasn't dissing him. I just feel sorry for the guy, because he got his hopes up so early on, only to find out more than two years later that what he wanted won't happen.

You don't seem disappointed, and for that I envy you.

[Ibthink]

I reread lead_org's old posts. He talked mostly about getting a taller-than-16:9 panel, and mentioned specifically 13.3" 16:10 panels such as the MacBook and X300 panels. He didn't seem to care at all about the classic keyboard.

If I remember correctly, that was only in reference to other people discussing the aspect-ratio question. I know lead_org, for him the keyboard is most important, especially the layout.

By the way, wouldn´t a 13,3" 16:10 panel be pretty pointless? Its pretty much the same height as 16:9 14", just less wide.

You don't seem disappointed, and for that I envy you.

I have know the specs for the ThinkPad 25 for a long time now, so of course I am not very disappointed now. I was disappointed months ago.

But "being disappointed" is different from acting like this is an insult or anything like that. Its just a compromise and still a victory for ThinkPad fans. And a possible opportunity to influence Lenovo. So I can´t act like this is the worst thing ever, which is what some people do.

[RealBlackStuff]

I still don't understand why Apple can do 16:10, Microsoft can do 3:2 and Lenovo can only do the sh!ttiest of them all 16:9.
There's absolutely NO excuse for that, and even less for them to keep procuring the crappiest of the crappy LCDs!

[Thinkpad4by3]

Especially for the price tags Lenovo holds on their machines. For Ideapads, why bother putting a good LCD but its a Thinkpad, and Thinkpads are known for their beautiful screens, *cough* A31p *cough*

[Puppy]

Lenovo can do 3:2 in X1 Tablet and Huawei in Matte X laptop.

The reason is cutting costs to edge. Remember the 4K terrible crap they used in P50 workstation, fortunately customers were returning it. Every gaming laptop for half price had much better screen.

The lack of communication about the project for two years is the root source of current disappoitment. If they indicated limitations from management earlier, current state would be accepted much more easily and understandable. The 'hold your breath' to the end approach made more damage than a good thing.

Maybe the final product is not that ridiculous but the Lenovo's communication about it definitely is.

We still don't know anything about pricing, there is no way it can be more expensive than a similar T470 configuration and hi-res screen option is unsure. So there is another opportunity for Lenovo to make even more damage

[fatpolomanjr]

Keyboard is nice, but never should have been changed in the first place.

Display is a massive disappointment, not just the aspect ratio but the bezel too. Unless the 51nb guys develop a display mod, it's a deal breaker for me. I can't be a White Knight for Lenovo on this one.

[ajkula66]

What a waste of time and positive energy. Wow.

Honestly, I wish that this entire project was never started. And that's not how I felt in the beginning. At all.

What I would REALLY like to say cannot be expressed in a polite manner, so I'll just shut up right now.

[bgx]

Keyboard is nice, but never should have been changed in the first place.

Display is a massive disappointment, not just the aspect ratio but the bezel too. Unless the 51nb guys develop a display mod, it's a deal breaker for me. I can't be a White Knight for Lenovo on this one.

good idea. Let the 51nb ppl take this 25 anniversary edition and do the 16:10 mod. Would be a perfectly nice machine.

[coolcat37]

Its just a compromise and still a victory for ThinkPad fans.

Not in my name. If this leaked picture is indeed the "real-deal", I see no point in producing this machine.

[Ibthink]

Display is a massive disappointment, not just the aspect ratio but the bezel too. Unless the 51nb guys develop a display mod, it's a deal breaker for me.

I doubt they can do anything here, because you would need an IPS LED 14,1" 16:10 screen. But there is no such screen.

And 15,6" 16:9 doesn´t fit, its too wide. So a X330-style-mod is also not possible.

[Saucey]

I still don't understand why Apple can do 16:10, Microsoft can do 3:2 and Lenovo can only do the sh!ttiest of them all 16:9.
There's absolutely NO excuse for that, and even less for them to keep procuring the crappiest of the crappy LCDs!

I believe Apple has an agreement with the manufacturer for their 16:10 displays. No other competitor has that display, that or its just too expensive for competitors to buy.

[Thinkpad4by3]

If Lenovo actually cared about a non-16:9 display, they could do it. I would like you take a trip over to Panelook.com and stay a while. It might cjange your statement.

[Ibthink]

I would like you take a trip over to Panelook.com and stay a while. It might cjange your statement.

Yes, lets take a look at panelook: http://www.panelook.com/resmodlist.php? ... on_state=1

Wow, what a huge variety of 16:10 panels in production according to panelook! There is one 13.3" 2560x1600 panel made by Samsung...for Apple exclusively. There also has to be a 15.4" 2880x1800 panel for the Macbook Pro 15...and thats about the scope of the 16:10 panels currently in production for Notebooks, if you don´t include a few 12" panels made for Tablets.

If Lenovo actually cared about a non-16:9 display, they could do it.

Of course. The only question is, how expensive this would be. And you probably have to design a new chassis around a 16:10 panel, because while you could fit in a hypothetical 14.1" panel into the T470, it would look really, really awkward. And that begs the question how expensive such a completely unique chassis would be.

[dr_st]

You can write and defend all you like, but the facts remain:
- switching over to 16:9 is the most stupid thing ANY laptop manufacturer could have ever done, and
- killing the classic keyboard is the most stupid thing Lenovo has ever done (so far).

Precisely. So now Lenovo is undoing exactly the most stupid thing it has ever done. What more do you want them to do? Fix the flaws of the entire industry? Solve the problem of world hunger?

Admit it all of you - this whining about 16:9 has been going on forever, and will go on forever, but if Lenovo hadn't done the one thing they really should not have done - kill off the classic keyboard - this thread would never have happened. The discussion about the need for a "retro" project would never have happened. The special "post-classic Thinkpad" section on this forum would never have happened. There would be no need for it.

Everyone knows what Lenovo's worst sin since the acquisition of the brand was - now they seem to, at least partially, undo it. I'd say it's more "yay" than "nay".

But "being disappointed" is different from acting like this is an insult or anything like that. Its just a compromise and still a victory for ThinkPad fans. And a possible opportunity to influence Lenovo. So I can´t act like this is the worst thing ever, which is what some people do.

Very well put.

If this project is a commercial success, it will influence Lenovo to listen more to the die-hard fans of the brand. And if it is what it appears to be, it's still going to be the best Thinkpad for a die-hard Thinkpad fan since *30 era which could be modded with a classic keyboard. People should be a little more positive.

Thinkpads are known for their beautiful screens, *cough* A31p *cough*

Uhm... Thinkpads, both in IBM and early Lenovo era were known for... a handful (on specific models only) of good-quality IPS LCDs (the best thing was being IPS at all, spec-wise they were nothing special), and a packload of the worst quality TN+Film sh!t.

Honestly, I wish that this entire project was never started. And that's not how I felt in the beginning. At all.

Sorry that I have to express my disagreement with you, my friend, but look it from my a different point of view: Thanks to this project it seems that I will finally have something to upgrade to. Ideal or not, it will still be a lot better than anything else, and it's a laptop with modern hardware that can last me 5-7 more years. And I am sure I am not the only Thinkpad fan that feels the same.

[theterminator93]

I tend to agree with both points of view, but in a middle ground sort of way. This is sounding too much like heated left vs. right politics - it's either all or none for both sides if they don't get their way completely!

Am I disappointed in the final result? Absolutely yes. A taller screen, more LEDs, and a number of other things were all on my wish list. But will I end up getting one? Probably, assuming a fine configuration can be had for the low to mid-2k price range (tops). The keyboard coming back is a step in the right direction, and is the single biggest factor that influences my decision. If it had been a 16:10 screen with LEDs but the 6 row chiclet keyboard, I wouldn't be saying the same thing. When they started deviating from the established formula we accept as that which defines a ThinkPad, it started with a few changes at a time; first the screens then the keyboard, then finally LEDs and finish.

For my purposes the keyboard is probably the single most important thing that affected the brand. Industry trends killed the rest, like screen ratio and less status indicators and so forth, IMO. I don't see why they couldn't bring at least the LEDs back, but that's not something I'm going to turn into a deal breaker for this model because it may be my only chance to get a classic keyboard with these new CPUs.

Like I said, yeah, I'm disappointed. It's not what I was hoping for. But it's a Kaby Lake (or Sky Lake if they offer the full T470 CPU lineup) classic keyboard equipped ThinkPad. Granted it's still a movie-watcher's 16:9 screen, but what *20 or 30 series isn't? Getting one of these may be my last chance to own a classic keyboard to go on well into the late 2020s or 2030s when (inevitably) the 20 and 30 series CPUs and GPUs become obsolete for daily duties on the go.

In the end if the model is a flop, I'm sure the Lenovo execs will go "look at that, this classic keyboard really isn't what people want" as a way to justify never using it again. But if it's a success, that at least gleams a shed of hope that it could return again later on - possibly with additional compromises with the things the rest of us look for in a true classic ThinkPad.