Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[w0qj]

The TP25 is a "Good Enough" Classic ThinkPad keyboard notebook for us with FHD resolution (which we use daily).
We tend to think of the ThinkPad-25 as a T470p but with FHD, but with USB-C port for future-proofing

***BUT if TP25 (pseudo limited edition) does not sell well, this may be the last ThinkPad with traditional 7-row ThinkPad keyboard. Ever.

Guys, there is no reason to be so upset over the price tag. As time goes by, it will be 10% off, then 20% off, and later even 30% off etc. All Thinkpad models go through this cycle. If the TP25 is sold out very fast, then the discounts may not happen, but almost everyone here seems to be convinced that it won't sell fast. And of course, eventually (in 5 years?) you can buy it used for a couple hundred bucks.

I probably will never buy another laptop -- see viewtopic.php?f=58&t=124127 -- but if I were looking for a laptop, I too would skip the TP25 like most of you, and the main reason is that FHD simply doesn't cut it.

[Thinkpad4by3]

When they said they made a TP X301 remake they weren't wrong.

The X301 vs. TP25
Both came with last gen CPU's
Both have bad LCDs.
Both are rehashed versions of their older model.

X301
+indicators
+ultrabay
+AFFS LCD mod
+actually a Thinkpad.

The only difference is the X301 was a great machine and the TP25 is junk.

[dr_st]

Let's see.

Both have bad LCDs.

Comparing a WXGA+ TN panel which was probably one of the worst panels in existence (definitely the worst I have seen) with a FHD IPS Touchscreen. Yeah, right.

+indicators

Oh, Lord, how can I possibly use a computer without a blinking WiFi LED?!

+ultrabay

-docking station port, though.

+AFFS LCD mod

Which is still not nearly as good as the 'bad' stock LCD on the T25.

The only difference is the X301 was a great machine and the TP25 is junk.

You know, even as a lame attempt at sarcasm it does not pass. It seems that some folks on this forum have really got more than one screw loose. I wonder if it's the heat or maybe the screws just became stripped from disassembling too many Thinkpads.

[Ibthink]

+actually a Thinkpad.

The question is what your qualifiers for that are. Obsolete features like lid-latches? The "Clamshell" design, which isn´t very pronounced on the X301 either? The WiFi and HDD Status LEDs and the ThinkLight?

Not really sure what makes the X301 more of a ThinkPad than the ThinkPad 25. Both have a TrackPoint with dedicated buttons and both have the classical 7 row keyboard. Both are black, both have a nice rubberized coating.

The obsolete ODD on the X301? I don´t think so. All it does is that it forces you to buy an Ultrabay battery to have an actually useful mobile machine.

The X301 really isn´t much different or better than the ThinkPad 25. The keyboard might be a little better because it has more travel, granted. Its also lighter, because its made out of Carbon, which is way more expensive as well. The X301 isn´t even better in regards to the screen, the biggest weak-point of the ThinkPad 25, because the X301 screen is one of the worst there is and 13.3" 16:10 doesn´t have any real advantages over 14" 16:9.

[Thinkpad4by3]

I think you missed the fact it was made in 2008 or 9. DVDs were still very popular. Im not talking about the latches or any other nitty gritty stuff. Using it I feel very productive. Ive used the new(xx40 and later) ones, and even with the better keyboard I feel that Im limited.

[dr_st]

Using it I feel very productive. Ive used the new(xx40 and later) ones, and even with the better keyboard I feel that Im limited.

By what?

[topmahof]

I am very happy to see this finally happen. I can finally type on a laptop again, I missed the old keyboard, I really did.

I'm also glad to see a touchscreen.

Dave

[shawross]

Was it possible for Lenovo to produce a "Retro Thinkpad" to satisfy everyone on this forum? No!

Does it reflect 25 years of Thinkpads? No! The Keyboard and layout look more like a T420/X220 which is only about 5-6 years old IMO with a relatively large Trackpad which I never use anyway.

Personally I would have preferred a 16:10 aspect ratio and better still a 4:3 but realistically this was never going to happen despite the polling and rhetoric.

I would rather a lid latch and Thinklight while keyboard backlighting doesn't interest me.

Could I use a touch screen? Maybe and I can accept many people will like this feature.

I am glad Lenovo at least offered a Retro even if it wasn't exactly to my liking.

Consequently I won't purchase a T25 now but in the future maybe.

If Lenovo did produce a true "Retro" then this would make older models less relevant. So I am happy to keep using older hardware until I find something to entice me to spend some money.


For me the defining quality that the T25 needs to fill is build quality. The X301 wasn't perfect either but it had a good feel and it was definitely sturdy. This is an undeniable Thinkpad quality and there is no compromise in this department. Poor build quality quickly becomes junk and I am hoping the T25 holds Thinkpad tradtions. YMMV

[Saucey]

Did Lead_org change the title of this thread, or did we have an admin do that? (Note from Admin RBS: I did it)

I like you all, am disappointed in the ThinkPad 25th Anniversary edition. They hyped it up a lot and just... ruined it.
I mean, at least the S30/31 came out of nowhere to commemorate the ThinkPad, and the ThinkPad Reserve Edition was just what it was, a limited edition X61s.
However I feel that Lenovo really dropped the ball on this for making so much commotion about it.

They only thing this has is a non-chicklet keyboard, which, the layout is similar to old ThinkPads of the past. Nothing else.
I wouldn't doubt if Apple decided to bring an iBook retro edition, it would be sold out, because they don't play any games, just market well.

There's no ThinkLight, lid latches, and sadly, a dropped hinge design for the screen.

Jamming an ultrabook onto a ThinkPad 770 seems to be the only way now.

[systemBuilder]

I think that Lenovo did the following:

1. They listened to their users.
2. They implemented the #1 most-requested feature (keyboard + trackpoint + better palmrest + light).
3. They implemented the #2 most-requested feature (IPS Screen 50 nits brighter than the T4x series @ 175 nits).

A lot of things in a T4x / T6x thinkpad are no longer needed - - -
a. Who needs an ultrabay when batteries last 9h ??
b. Who needs an extra HD slot when you have a SATA slot and an mSATA (or PCIe) slot or 128GB micro-USB drives?
c. Does a thinklight really add all that much value over a backlit keyboard? You can get a USB light for $3.99 from China.

Probably the #3 most-requested feature was to add a better display for programming and editing paper (16:10) but imho what we really wanted was a 3:2 display; you can buy a MacBook Pro if you want a 16:10 display. So it's not like you have no options if 16:10 is your thing. A 3:2 display would require a full chassis redesign and I don't think they have the $$$ or risk appetite for that - after all, Google just caved in - abandoning 3:2 displays - and made the new Pixelbook a 16:9 laptop ...

I wish they'd offer a machine with a *REAL* 3D graphics card, maybe a GTX 1050M for $2000 or $2100, I would be all over that machine in a heartbeat. The T41p, T42p, and T43p machines had a *REAL* 3D graphics, not a "pretend" 3D graphics chip like the GT 940MX. The MX series from NVidia has always had "BUDGET" (< $90) written all over it !!!!

My co-worker who loves thinkpads just bought 2 of these T25 machines.

THE PRICE IS COMPETITIVE WITH RETRO THINKPADS - Our T42/p with ATI 9600 on sale cost $2200 back in 2004 (MSRP =
$2900). $1899 - 15%-off = $1614.15 for a T470 with a discrete GPU, PCIe SSD @ 512GB, and other goodies is an okay price, the keyboard is thrown in at no cost to users!

We can possibly look forward to franken-padding T25 keyboards onto T470 models and perhaps T480 models in the future ...

[fatpolomanjr]

Probably the #2 feature was to add a better display for programming and editing paper (16:10) but imho what we really wanted was a 3:2 display; you can buy a MacBook Pro if you want a 16:10 display. So it's not like you have no options if 16:10 is your thing.

You could also buy a Surface Laptop, Surface Book, or Huawei MateBook if you want 3:2. What we really wanted was a laptop with a trackpoint, hence ThinkPad, and a display that is more suitable than 16:9 along with the classic 7-row keyboard. If the Surface Book or MacBook Pro had a trackpoint I would have ditched Lenovo a long time ago.

I personally don't care much about the status LEDs, however for me Lenovo only fulfilled half of their end of the deal. 16:10 won the polls in spite of the $^%#-ery with the 3:2 and 4:3 nonsense. And they failed to deliver. The keyboard is still great...I'm just not happy about spending more than $1000 on a glorified T470, especially after the 2 year wait.

I would have gotten the Retro, even at the $1900 price point, if both the keyboard and 16:10 display were present. Maybe $1500, tops, for a 16:9 display with minimal bezel a la XPS 15, but they couldn't even get that.

[systemBuilder]

At the end of the Day, the T25 is a STEP in the right direction. They listened to users and made a machine at an affordable price point ($1614 with 15% discount, widely available), with a longevity feature set (USB-C, all the ports, dedicated GPU), and with the #1 user request : Bring back the best keyboard, trackpoint, and palmrest, in history!

I wouldn't be surprised if they are losing money on this project!

Lenovo should be applauded for listening and for sticking their neck out. They deserves praise for trying to respond to a crowd-sourcing request from customers. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANY MULTINATIONAL COMPANY DID THAT? Never!

[ajkula66]

At the end of the Day, the T25 is a STEP in the right direction.

Filling Lenovo's accounts with fast cash from old-school ThinkPad users?

They listened to users and made a machine at an affordable price point ($1614 with 15% discount, widely available), with a longevity feature set (USB-C, all the ports, dedicated GPU), and with the #1 user request : Bring back the best keyboard, trackpoint, and palmrest, in history!

The price point was a non-issue for a vast majority of people who participated in those polls. Keyboard and trackpoint were. Palmrest? Heck no. But the screen and a number of less important (IMO) classic ThinkPads features were.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are losing money on this project!

Let's be serious for about three seconds, shall we?

Lenovo should be applauded for listening and for sticking their neck out. They deserves praise for trying to respond to a crowd-sourcing request from customers. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANY MULTINATIONAL COMPANY DID THAT? Never!

No one at Lenovo stuck their neck out for anything. This is a classic case of nostalgia-mining with minimal risks involved.

[kfzhu1229]

On the flip side, this is still better than what Apple did to their twentieth anniversary Mac which takes screwing up to the next level, with potato specs and high pricing. I think the old-school users are better off getting the USB keyboard with trackpoint to use with a ThinkPad tablet, if they really desire a old-school feel with new specs without the mod boards.
Didn't expect Lenovo to bring everything back anyway, providing that all other company completely ditches their past.

[systemBuilder]

Lenovo should be applauded for listening and for sticking their neck out. They deserves praise for trying to respond to a crowd-sourcing request from customers. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANY MULTINATIONAL COMPANY DID THAT? Never!

No one at Lenovo stuck their neck out for anything. This is a classic case of nostalgia-mining with minimal risks involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvDhuXaoL6c&t=837

"It is a 14" FHD 16:9 display and I know this will be a subject of much much much discussion ... things with different aspect ratios, __those__are__custom__, and have to be ordered in massive volume, and just were not financially feasible for this, we know people wanted it... sometimes dreams crash up against reality ..."

[w0qj]

We would have blindly bought multiple units of ThinkPad-25 @ US$2,000 if it also had 16:10 LCD screen;
the 16:10 screen is that important to us! Much more vertical screen space to work with, thus greatly increasing your productivity.

We would like to think that price consideration is *not* a major consideration for those of us considering to procure the T-series, X-series, and W/P-series ThinkPads.
ThinkPads are more expensive and of superior build quality, hence one can amortize its costs over 5+ years to justify this.
Many classic ThinkPadders on this forums with older ThinkPads (5+ or even 10+ year old models) attest to this!

The price point was a non-issue for a vast majority of people who participated in those polls. Keyboard and trackpoint were. Palmrest? Heck no. But the screen and a number of less important (IMO) classic ThinkPads features were.

[dr_st]

the 16:10 screen is that important to us! Much more vertical screen space to work with, thus greatly increasing your productivity.

I wouldn't say "much". The difference is rather small. It's not like 4:3 vs 16:9 where the difference is very big. Resolution matters more at these levels.

[systemBuilder]

I think the BIG and IMPORTANT fact is this :

==> For the first time in YEARS, thinkpads are getting BETTER ! ! !

This is something to rejoice about, and we should encourage Lenovo to go in these directions, not trash them for trying to actually listen to customers. The machine supports almost EVERY feature than a T60p or T42p ever supported, but with modern speeds and it seems future-proof for at least 5-7 years, with discrete graphics, USB-C video, USB-C charging, 32GB RAM support, and a hot-swappable battery. The T470 scores 91% on notebookcheck, one of the highest scores of all time, open your eyes. I bet this machine would score 92%.

[systemBuilder]

Do you know how many IPS 1920 x 1200 panels exist between 12.2 inches and 15.4 inches in size? ZERO. There were NEVER any made.

http://www.panelook.com/resmodlist.php? ... 190&page=2

Do you know how many eDP IPS 16:10 2560 x 1600 panels exist between 13.4 inches and 14.9 inches in size? ZERO. There were NEVER any made.

http://www.panelook.com/product_cat.php ... ategory=70
http://www.panelook.com/product_cat.php ... 70&pl=list

So indeed, it would have taken a custom production run to make 14" anniversary laptop with a 16:10 panel.

[ansible212]

The T470 scores 91% on notebookcheck, one of the highest scores of all time, open your eyes. I bet this machine would score 92%.

T25 only scored 89%

[lophiomys]

Do you know how many IPS 1920 x 1200 panels exist between 12.2 inches and 15.4 inches in size? ZERO. There were NEVER any made.
...
Do you know how many eDP IPS 16:10 2560 x 1600 panels exist between 13.4 inches and 14.9 inches in size? ZERO. There were NEVER any made.
...

So this big coroporation should have created one. That would have been a chance for Lenovo to proove to the world that they are innovative.
15 inch 4:3 UXGA an QXGA have actually been produced and are still in use. So have been 15 inch Thinkpads in 4:3.
That is what the customer do want.

Even Microsoft and Huawei can source a good 3:2 laptop screen.

So indeed, it would have taken a custom production run to make 14" anniversary laptop with a 16:10 panel.

It would have been worth it! Alone by the raise in reputation as a giveaway side effect.

[lophiomys]

...
==> For the first time in YEARS, thinkpads are getting BETTER ! ! !
...

Sorry the review at Notebookcheck revealed that the FHD only screen has PWM flicker.
Is this your definition of "better" in 2017?

Alone combining the high price of the T25 with a poor screen is a showstopper, despite the good 7-row keyboard.

And then it is in 16:9 .... I mean look at the space wasted by the screen bezels!

[dr_st]

Sorry the review at Notebookcheck revealed that the FHD only screen has PWM flicker.

They were surprised by that, yes. It may be panel-dependent? In their T470 review they did not notice PWM, and AFAIK, there are two different FHD IPS options for T470 and T25.

They also mentioned that at a 1000Hz flicker frequency most people will still not notice it and will not be affected.

Is this your definition of "better" in 2017?

No, my definition of better is that it finally has a keyboard layout that does not suck. To me that's more important.

Alone combining the high price of the T25 with a poor screen is a showstopper, despite the good 7-row keyboard.

The price is not high. It costs as much as a similarly-configured T470 costs, and that's without the nVidia GPU. They observed that in the Notebookcheck review as well.

The screen is also not poor. Just 'average'. As long as there are still laptops with TN screens sold, I would not call any FHD IPS offering poor, unless it is defective from the factory.

[pianowizard]

First of all, can we stop calling this "T25"? It's not a continuation of the T20/21/22/23 series. Call it TP25, for "Thinkpad 25".

Comparing a WXGA+ TN panel which was probably one of the worst panels in existence (definitely the worst I have seen) with a FHD IPS Touchscreen. Yeah, right.

The X301 screen was bad in terms of quality, but at that time 1440x900 was considered really good for 13.3". I am sure the TP25's IPS panel will look much nicer, but 1920x1080 on 14.0" is fairly low by today's standards.

And when did you start appreciating touchscreen? All these years, I have been the only person on this forum who likes touchscreen.

I wouldn't say "much". The difference is rather small. It's not like 4:3 vs 16:9 where the difference is very big. Resolution matters more at these levels.

You can't just consider the 11.1% difference between 1920x1200 and 1920x1080. On a FHD screen, very often I can't view an entire page of a PDF or Word document at 100%, but instead at 90 - 98%, so the text looks jagged. That's why I used to like 2048x1152, which was just tall enough to fit all documents at 100%. 1152 is only 6.67% more than 1080, but the difference felt significant.

[Summilux]

If the Surface Book or MacBook Pro had a trackpoint I would have ditched Lenovo a long time ago.

This, a thousand times. Although I do care about status lights (very cheap to implement btw), latches, etc.

They listened to users

Lenovo should be applauded for listening and for sticking their neck out. They deserves praise for trying to respond to a crowd-sourcing request from customers. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANY MULTINATIONAL COMPANY DID THAT? Never!

Best joke in two years.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are losing money on this project!

ROFL. They were too cheap to even implement status lights, can you seriously think they'd be willing to risk losing money with that half-arsed T470-25 ?!

I think the old-school users are better off getting the USB keyboard with trackpoint to use with a ThinkPad tablet, if they really desire a old-school feel with new specs without the mod boards.

Indeed. Except the USB keyboard no longer has the classic keys, and it seems like Lenovo forbids resellers to sell the older USB keyboard with the proper keys, so in effect it means this solution isn't actually a solution and is more cumbersome than buying a wholesome laptop.

[ajkula66]

They also mentioned that at a 1000Hz flicker frequency most people will still not notice it and will not be affected.

Unfortunately, some of us are exceptionally sensitive to PWM. That aspect alone would pose a huge problem *for me*, even if everything else was perfect.

The screen is also not poor. Just 'average'. As long as there are still laptops with TN screens sold, I would not call any FHD IPS offering poor, unless it is defective from the factory.

The lack of a non-touchscreen option is mind-boggling, at least to me.

You can't just consider the 11.1% difference between 1920x1200 and 1920x1080. On a FHD screen, very often I can't view an entire page of a PDF or Word document at 100%, but instead at 90 - 98%, so the text looks jagged. That's why I used to like 2048x1152, which was just tall enough to fit all documents at 100%. 1152 is only 6.67% more than 1080, but the difference felt significant.

This.

For *my* needs, anything less than 1050 is outright unacceptable and whatever exists between 1050 and 1200 is a compromise. There's a reason why 1200 was a standard for quite some time. For certain pieces of software it still is.

I could live with a 14" FHD IPS presuming no PWM and no touchscreen. I wouldn't be drooling over it, but I could make it work to at least some extent. Which is along the lines of what I'll likely have to resort to at some point in the game, but this dressed-up T470 will most certainly not be the starting point.

[Summilux]

What "efforts"? Perhaps you mean "noise" and "hype".

Lenovo made this noise, it is responsible for the hype it created itself.

That way, while legitimate, will probably be much longer and more painful. In case of Lenovo - the technology, the knowledge, the connections and the legal groundwork is all there. What lacks is some corporate will. That's surprisingly easy to change with pressure at the right spots (although finding the right spots is typically not easy). Building the same level of expertise and connections from the ground up is far more difficult, at least as long as you aim for anything close to the same volume.

I guess you can say that you are NOT aiming for the same volume. Puppy, for example, believes that the demand for high-quality laptops for productive work is actually quite low at this point. If he's right, then perhaps a community-driven project can succeed for such a small audience, but you would still have to give up a great deal of reliability, maintainability (replacement parts and repair services), and long-term sustainability.

You are making fair points. And I agree with you : ideally it'd be better to work with Lenovo. Have them allow for the "pre-order" (aka corporate crowdfunding) of a laptop to the specs of the majority of legacy Thinkpadders' wishes. And then produce it in potentially sizeable volumes.

Except Lenovo has proven times and times again that it is not a cooperative, user-friendly company. There is very little corporate goodwill in this company. So after two years of waiting in vain, why exhaust our already thin-worn patience by waiting again, and/or buying two or three more generations of Lenovopads with the faint hope that maybe, just maybe, that will ease them up and lead them to start treating us decently ?

That's why I'm positing that at this point, a community project might be plausible after all. With 51nb as a campaign coordinator, and Wistron/Quanta/Foxconn as final designers/manufacturers. The resulting legacy laptop would be produced in a small series, and wouldn't be geared towards either mainstream Apple users or mission critical applications where 24/7 worldwide support is expected. But for people like us, that wouldn't be an issue. Getting the grunt of engineering work through experienced contract manufacturers could ensure a "better-than-homemade" reliability. And if as I've written in the other thread, a good portion of parts can be 3D printed, it could at least partially address cost and maintainability issues.

[dr_st]

I could live with a 14" FHD IPS presuming no PWM and no touchscreen. I wouldn't be drooling over it, but I could make it work to at least some extent. Which is along the lines of what I'll likely have to resort to at some point in the game, but this dressed-up T470 will most certainly not be the starting point.

Well, even if Lenovo does not eventually release additional configurations of Thinkpad 25, retrofitting a non-touchscreen non-PWM FHD IPS is probably trivial on this model.

[ajkula66]

I could live with a 14" FHD IPS presuming no PWM and no touchscreen. I wouldn't be drooling over it, but I could make it work to at least some extent. Which is along the lines of what I'll likely have to resort to at some point in the game, but this dressed-up T470 will most certainly not be the starting point.

Well, even if Lenovo does not eventually release additional configurations of Thinkpad 25, retrofitting a non-touchscreen non-PWM FHD IPS is probably trivial on this model.

That's a fair point, and may make a lot of practical sense for some users, but not silly old me.

If I'm going to hack a 16:9 system, that's going to be a W530 which for *my* purposes makes a lot more sense once it has been upgraded to an IPS panel and a "classic" keyboard.

[theterminator93]

Well, my TP25 arrived this afternoon, and I type this to you all here on it now.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised. The keyboard's feel is much more natural coming from *20 than any of the chiclet style keyboards (which I regularly encounter as part of my line of work). Build quality, so far, seems pretty good. Performance is good. And the screen is very nice as well; I find 14" FHD quite comfortable with no DPI scaling. I don't notice any flicker at all at any brightness level. Would I like it more if it was WUXGA? Sure, but this is perfectly fine.

There are a "few" status LEDs. There's a dedicated LED by the charging port (what shipped with the unit was the standard square tipped 65W AC adapter, not a Thunderbolt charger like some reviews indicated) to show you what the battery is doing. As efficient as the color coded/blinking LED of the prior generations? No, but I appreciate its presence nonetheless. And of course there's the green power/standby LED around the power button.

Key travel is slightly less than the *20 series keyboards for sure, but due to the key feedback and shape/layout, it's very natural coming straight from a *20 series keyboard. Do I have a preference to either, hmm... well, I think it's too early to say. But I can say there's much less adaptation than there is having to type on 6 row chiclet keyboards!

Time will tell how much this gets used. But for now, my biggest obstacle is Windows 10. I haven't used it much except when work requires, so I'm still new at it. I'm going to start out slow and do the stuff I don't care MS to know about on my other computers for now...