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systemBuilder
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#121 Post by systemBuilder » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:32 pm

My Thinkpad T4000 2016 design ;

* NO WHITELIST IN THE BIOS. NONE!

* Premium aluminum or magnesium frame with a latching hinge.

* a 100 sq-inch 14" screen, i.e. 16:10 and 8% larger in both dimensions. People don't realize that today's 14" Thinkpads give you a pathetic 85 sq. inches of real estate, whereas the 14.1" thinkpads had 101+ sq. inches of real estate. Lenovo needs to do a Dell-like "infinity" display for 14" laptops. The 14" laptop might end up with a 15.1" diagonal display. That's something to be celebrated!

* I don't care about the keyboard as long as it's not a chinese-made piece of junk or chickony, that's all I care. Frankly, the chinese-made thinkpad clone keyboards and chickony's are WORSE than today's lenovo chicklet keyboards. Of course, an NMB/Korea keyboard would be optimal, as it's easier to have a hands-shifted-by-one-key-left/right problem on the chicklet keyboards than the traditional keyboards.

* Lots of expansion but no ultrabay is required. Just give us a 9+ hr battery life and a hot-swap battery solution and you can omit the ultrabay, we do all our expansion these days with USB 3.0 or 3.1c. Make sure there are 3x of those USB 3.0 ports, minimum, two on the side, unlike T430s. We sometimes use our T4x's as massive battery packets, make sure that all 3 of the USB ports can be programmed "always on".

* Two thinklights, one thinklight, that's not important. The laptop needs to have solution for reading documents in private on airplanes. Towards that end even a removable USB light (a la IKEA) would be ok: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/2214740143 ... =82&chn=ps

* Larger trackpad that is SLICK, not NUBBLED. The nubbled ones wear away and look like dirty converse sneakers after a while.

* IPS and non-IPS 1920 x 1200 screens. Graphics accelerator OPTIONAL, just offer some decent high-end (HD5600 or Iris Pro) integrated graphics and that's enough.

Hey Lenovo, NOBODY buys a MacBook Air because it's thin. THEY BUY THAT LAPTOP BECAUSE THE BATTERY LASTS 11h WHICH IS FREAKING AWESOME. Apple wants other OEMs to think that people buy it because it's thin, because then the OEMs will waste time on the wrong design problems for their laptops!
Last edited by systemBuilder on Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Lots of thinkpads (10+) but I would never be so stupid as to list them all because that would spam everybody's searches and people who *do* try to list them all would be jerks.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#122 Post by hhhd1 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:46 pm

brchan wrote:Lenovo has been taking too much emphasis on thinness, at the cost of expansion, performance, battery life, and durability. Is it really that much harder to carry or store something 1.0 - 1.1in vs .7in thick? What happened to form follows function?

Also, lenovo's definition of 'retro' is a bit silly. Their definition seems to imply that they are catering to mostly older folks who are stuck in the past. In reality, these 'retro' features are not 'retro'. They are simply practical features that have been removed for no good reason.
Exactly.

few things that lenovo should do 'retro':

1. not have thermal throttling issues like w540, w541 and w550s.
2. have excellent quality quite fans, that could remain quite even under medium load, unlike what they started using since t520 i think.
3. hackable bios, to allow removal of wlan/wwan whitelist.
4. full voltage processor in relatively thin laptops, like t420s


it may be easy for lenovo to mess this up if they simply didn't take good care of the quality of smaller items like bios/speakers/..etc.


I also posted a more 'constructive' post in the lenovo blog, probably now buried under few hundreds of other post :D
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#123 Post by bit_twiddler » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:29 pm

At this point, it doesn't look like David Hill & Co. are trying to do anything
beyond an X301 remake; if successful, then he could push for a 14" model.

I really want a 16:10 1920x1200 IPS T420. If they could just leave the rest of it alone
and let me keep hard docking and the slice battery, I would be very happy.

If they could make it thinner and lighter, that would be great, but not at the expense of an
ultrabay and other functionality.

Until then... how is that T420 FHD mod coming, RBS?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#124 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:38 pm

bit_twiddler wrote:At this point, it doesn't look like David Hill & Co. are trying to do anything
beyond an X301 remake;
Well, to be the devil's advocate...it does seem like easy money for them.
if successful, then he could push for a 14" model.
If I were a betting man - presuming that anything comes out of this whole thing to begin with - I'd be predicting a machine larger than 14" as Mr. Hill's next project...

Until then... how is that T420 FHD mod coming, RBS?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#125 Post by systemBuilder » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:53 pm

MrMaguire wrote:Or maybe have the ThinkLight AND a backlit keyboard?! :mrgreen:

I've really been enjoying the discussion. So far I think you guys are right on the money. The obsession with thin laptops nowadays is nothing but shallow conforming to current trends.
The T430s has exactly this feature, Thinklight AND a backlit keyboard. Unfortunately it has really poor 4h battery life and it gets blazing hot just playing the simplest YouTube videos (i5-3320 cpu).

When you press the Fn+Space button :

No light => Keyboard backlight low => Keyboard backlight high => Keyboard backlight high + thinklight => No light.
=======================
Lots of thinkpads (10+) but I would never be so stupid as to list them all because that would spam everybody's searches and people who *do* try to list them all would be jerks.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#126 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:01 pm

systemBuilder wrote:The T430s has exactly this feature, Thinklight AND a backlit keyboard.
Unfortunately, the keyboard in question is a 6-row island type.

I'd be incredibly impressed if Lenovo actually managed to get a "classic" keyboard backlit - not that I need one - while retaining the proper feel...

My experince with backlit keyboards - mostly from other manufacturers though - has been that they always feel inferior to their non-backlit cousins.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#127 Post by sysiphus » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:59 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
I'd be incredibly impressed if Lenovo actually managed to get a "classic" keyboard backlit - not that I need one - while retaining the proper feel...

My experince with backlit keyboards - mostly from other manufacturers though - has been that they always feel inferior to their non-backlit cousins.
While the older 7-row ThinkPad keyboards were doubtlessly still better, the backlit "classic" style keyboard on the first-generation (pre-unibody) Macbook Pro was decent. I'd rather have a top-quality non-backlit model, but if there's a will to do it, I don't think backlighting on a decent quality traditional keyboard is beyond reach. Personally I'd be happy to get something of T60 quality without backlighting, which I neither need nor want to pay for.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#128 Post by QWERTY Andreas » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:58 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Why waste money on a logo (fed by useless wiring) that you won't see anyway once your machine is on?
Illuminate the logo? Imitate Apple? Who needs it?
Besides, it would be another waste: of battery-life this time.
Spend that money instead towards a decent screen that is NOT made for watching movies!
Just a comment; The illuminated logo on my thinkpad 8 is showing power state.It can show if it is off, on, standby and such. Just like some of the old LEDs :)
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#129 Post by 600X » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:01 am

It is possible to make a classic keyboard backlit, as demonstrated by the Alienware M15x.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#130 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:23 am

600X wrote:It is possible to make a classic keyboard backlit, as demonstrated by the Alienware M15x.
My point was "while retaining the proper feel..."
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#131 Post by bhtooefr » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:06 am

It's worth noting that the T92 concept that David Hill showed looks like a 14.1" machine, not a 13.3" machine - the LCD is wider than the keyboard, just like, say, the T61 14W:
http://www.technologyguide.com/wp-conte ... /22763.jpg

Contrast with the X301, a 13.3" 16:10 machine, where the keyboard and screen are the same width:
http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/con ... 0/x301.jpg

In any case, one thing to consider, especially if the idea here is to make an homage to the 1992 ThinkPad 700... what made the ThinkPad 700 such a huge deal?

The first thing to consider is the definition of the term, "notebook computer". Nowadays, "notebook" is interchangeable with "laptop", unless the manufacturer is worried about lawsuits due to reproductive health issues caused by an overheating (usually Pentium 4) machine, and wants to discourage lap use. (And, the one manufacturer that I'm aware of actually having done that uses "laptop" nowadays, so they're now fully interchangeable again.) But, it used to be that "notebook" was a size class of laptop - about the size of a notebook, which is either A4 or Letter size (notebooks usually went for A4 size because it (just) allowed for a full-size keyboard). The ThinkPad 700 was a notebook in the strictest sense of the term, as it was exactly A4 dimensions - 297 x 210 mm, or 11.7" x 8.27" (and, in fact, the 7-series ThinkPads (and related 3-series machines) stayed at that footprint until the 765 became deeper to accommodate a larger screen). Computers bigger than that are laptops, but not notebooks, and computers smaller than that are subnotebooks.

Now, why is this important? The ThinkPad 700 had the largest display of any notebook at launch (remember, notebook is a size class), and of course the TrackPoint II was one of the first decent pointing devices on a laptop. And, it had a 486SLC, when most (not all, though) notebooks were still on the 386SX or 386SL.

So, it was A4 size, it was decently fast for its time and size, it had a big screen for its size, and it had a useful pointing device.

I'd actually make the argument that the A4 footprint is rather important, and there is a much more modern ThinkPad that went back to the A4 footprint (actually a smidge smaller, at 295 x 210 mm) - the X200/X201:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/9/9b/ThinkPadX201.jpg

Of course, those machines had about five acres worth of bezel with their 12.1" 16:10 screen, and if Lenovo wanted to minimize bezels, a 13.3" screen (at 286 mm wide) should just fit into a 297 mm wide lid, and height, even with a webcam and the ThinkLight(s), is a non-concern at 179 mm. I'd suggest that - get as much screen into that space as possible, another component of the classic ThinkPad formula.

Speaking of that... the way the MacBook Pro Retina panels are made, the panel would have to be partially custom (LG and Samsung make the panels for Apple, and they literally build the panel components into the lid, rather than build a panel for Apple to install into the lid). I suspect it would be MUCH cheaper to get a partially custom (conventionally-built with matte top layer) 13.3" 2560x1600 IPS panel from Samsung (not LG, I'm well aware of the image retention issues that the LG panels have, having had an LG panel on my 15" MBP Retina), than it would be to get a full-custom size panel, even at a certain density. The economies of scale are at certain sizes of panel that are adopted, not just at certain densities. Besides, in the A4 form factor, 4:3 doesn't help, it's too tall. Even 3:2, you'd end up with more bezel most likely, due to needing a smaller screen (both because of room for the webcam and what panels are available, which would most likely be 12.85") - 272 x 181 mm, most likely, for a 3:2(ish) panel, in that 12.85" 2560x1700 panel. And, it wouldn't allow lower-resolution options, whereas 13.3" 16:10 does (you could reasonably run any of 2560x1600, 1920x1200, 1440x900, and 1280x800, and I think most of those are available in IPS).

Now, the CPU. If this is a retro model, it can be a bit thick, so there's room for some serious cooling hardware, and some serious battery (which, by the way, should absolutely be removable, and probably mounted at the rear of the chassis to enable extended batteries). How about Skylake-H with Iris Pro? That would probably make it the fastest in the class by a lot (especially the Iris Pro part, in a class of almost exclusively integrated graphics machines), and the power management of modern Intel CPUs means it won't even be that bad on battery on the light workloads that would be run on a Skylake-U normally. Speaking of battery, make sure the battery management system and the cells are durable - while the newest ThinkPad I owned was a T61p frankenpad, battery durability was downright terrible back then.

For input devices, go back to the layout used on the X201 that I'm using as the reference model for this idea (although X220-style volume keys are just fine, and I'm also fine with island keys), put the best domes possible under those keys. Run a TrackPoint IV of course, and then for the trackpad (which, if they actually want to sell the thing, needs to be present), make it a clickpad so that it's usefully large - the X201 trackpad was pretty sad.

I think that's it for ThinkPad 700 homages, but there's a couple other things to celebrate in the ThinkPad line with such a model, that can improve the machine.

Use palmrest-mounted upward-firing speakers, as the downward-firing speakers of many newer ThinkPads are awful, and it's a nice homage to the 760/765 and 600 series. (And, there'll be no room for upward-firing speakers mounted behind the keyboard, as in the 750/755 and A series, or beside the keyboard as in the widescreen machines, and it's not thick enough for forward-firing speakers as in the 770.)

Rubberized coating, but that was already mentioned. Somewhere I saw where Lenovo had actually improved the rubberized coating process for the X1 Carbon to avoid palmrest bubbling, which is nice.

Sure, put some ThinkLights on, why not. Granted, I never used the ThinkLights on the machines I had (and one of my favorite ThinkPads, my former X61 Tablet, didn't have one), but a lot of people like them.

Now, for unrelated things I haven't mentioned yet... mount SSDs on M.2, use SODIMMs for the RAM (nothing soldered). Give a 2.5" bay just in case someone wants to carry spinning platters (for a lot of data) with them, but I don't think internal optical is worth it. Maybe put an ExpressCard/34 slot in, but that's not actually that well adopted.

That particular ThinkPad logo that they're showing is freaking terrible. I'd rather them not make the homage to the RGB IBM logo if they're going to do that, but if they must, at least do it as ThinkPad (with the red dot over the i, of course), or even go back to the oval logo, and then make it Lenovo ThinkPad, laid out like the old IBM ThinkPad badge.

Make that machine, and I'd be tempted to buy it instead of using my Dell employee discount on a 15" Precision with Skylake-H, even though I'd be lacking GPU that way...

Also, as far as key feel with backlit keyboards (that aren't even island-shaped) goes... I actually think the Latitude E6320/E6420/E6430/E6520/E6530 and Precision M4600/M4700/M4800/M6600/M6700/M6800 keyboards are pretty good feeling even in backlit configurations. Not the best I've typed on, but better than many ThinkPad keyboards I've typed on (I'm looking at you, all of the T6x keyboards I've used).
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#132 Post by Norway Pad » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:49 pm

That's an interesting approach, to see this as a homage to the 700 and look into using its A4 / Notebook form factor. A view that's also worth noting among the suggestions given.

Personally I have emphasized that the RetroThinkpad must carry some of the design elements of the old IBM Thinkpads, but with a modern touch. Personally I once envisioned a 770Z or 600X looking shell with modern internals as my ideal RetroThinkpad. But I realized that very few, except die-hard enthusiasts like me, would appreciate a notebook of 2015/16 that looks that way. So this whole thing is really a trade off, where design some elements maybe have to go, while others get modernized. With this game, it's also a fine line between designing something that appeals to people outside the enthusiast group in order to make this product become reality and make a profit, and to not loose too much of what the enthusiasts like to see.

As mentioned above, there also seem to be two groups forming, where one wants a slimmer and smaller X-series machine, while others want a bigger T/W series workstation. I am a bit relaxed in relation to this, as even X-series capabilities would work for me, as long as I DO get the old style keyboard, and a good IPS panel narrower than 16:9. Hopefully also SODIMM slots, a full-voltage CPU and a detachable battery. But given the choice, I would prefer a bigger and thicker unit, 14.1", T4x or T60 looking.

I totally agree with your description and suggestions regarding the Thinkpad logo.

Btw. it's funny that you mention the 600-series' speaker location. David Hill actually said the following about the 600 in the book "ThinkPad - A Different Shade of Blue":
Interestingly, although it proved to be an award-winning design, the Thinkpad 600 does have some glaring mistakes. The most noticeable is that the audio speakers sit right underneath the hands. Typing on the 600 can interfere with sound coming out of the speakers.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#133 Post by bhtooefr » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:24 pm

Norway Pad wrote:Btw. it's funny that you mention the 600-series' speaker location. David Hill actually said the following about the 600 in the book "ThinkPad - A Different Shade of Blue":
Interestingly, although it proved to be an award-winning design, the Thinkpad 600 does have some glaring mistakes. The most noticeable is that the audio speakers sit right underneath the hands. Typing on the 600 can interfere with sound coming out of the speakers.
Really, it's one of several bad choices for speaker positioning, that the small form factor of the machine complicates. That said, maybe good and thin front-firing speakers could be crammed in there, with what's been done to make smartphones and tablets have good sound. Alternately, maybe stick them up in the lid, in the empty space next to the camera. A third possibility for mono sound is to stick it in the keyboard, between the volume controls and the power button, but I don't like that.

In any case, my idea would still be a quite modern machine (albeit a bit strange in concept, being a 13.3" machine in a 12.1" chassis with a quad core) - invoke memories of the 700C, but don't be the 700C.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#134 Post by brchan » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:42 pm

The speakers work great at the front of the laptop, below the palmrest, which is what you see on most older models such as the T4* and T60. This way, if you spill liquid or food onto the laptop, it won't go through the speaker grilles and onto the motherboard. Also, if you use the computer docked, but without external speakers, the sound from the laptop won't be affected if the lid is closed.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#135 Post by bhtooefr » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:50 pm

True, although I don't recall the sound being good on my T6x machines. Then again, maybe that's just the implementation of the speakers, and not the mounting position.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#136 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:52 pm

It's not the mounting position.

A3* series had speakers in the front and that's by far the best sound you'll get out of any ThinkPad, regardless of its era.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#137 Post by sysiphus » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:13 am

bhtooefr wrote:True, although I don't recall the sound being good on my T6x machines. Then again, maybe that's just the implementation of the speakers, and not the mounting position.
Yeah, my 14" T60 and T60p didn't have especially good sound, to be sure. But I'd blame the hardware, not the positioning. I had an older Dell at one point with a similar arrangement (though without the chamfered front edge) that sounded remarkably good.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#138 Post by 600X » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:01 am

The 14" T60 had horrible speakers, and the 15" T60 was hardly better. The X300 is the only lenovo ThinkPad that doesn't have terrible sound. However, it's about much more than volume or "bass". The A31p sounds so impressive because of its nearly linear frequency curve. Over at the German forum, someone did some measurements with the A31p speakers and concluded that, if it had a subwoofer, the sound would pass as "Hi-Fi".

I'm not expecting anything like that from the retro ThinkPad, but a lot can be done even with limited space if they at least try and put some sort of effort into it.

Personally, I would prefer a similar mounting position as with the X300.

What can't be neglected either is the soundcard. The last ThinkPad with a decent soundcard was the T60. With every generation that followed, the soundcard actually got a lot worse. Sometimes, I wonder how it is even possible to find something worse than what's in the current ThinkPads, but every time a new generation comes out, I am proven wrong.

Not that lenovo should follow Apple, but Apple is the only manufacturer that integrated decent soundcards in their laptops and even their speakers are usually quite ok. If lenovo wants to keep copying Apple, THAT is the aspect they ought to be copying.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#139 Post by jonashendrickx » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:13 am

600X wrote:The 14" T60 had horrible speakers, and the 15" T60 was hardly better. The X300 is the only lenovo ThinkPad that doesn't have terrible sound. However, it's about much more than volume or "bass". The A31p sounds so impressive because of its nearly linear frequency curve. Over at the German forum, someone did some measurements with the A31p speakers and concluded that, if it had a subwoofer, the sound would pass as "Hi-Fi".

I'm not expecting anything like that from the retro ThinkPad, but a lot can be done even with limited space if they at least try and put some sort of effort into it.

Personally, I would prefer a similar mounting position as with the X300.

What can't be neglected either is the soundcard. The last ThinkPad with a decent soundcard was the T60. With every generation that followed, the soundcard actually got a lot worse. Sometimes, I wonder how it is even possible to find something worse than what's in the current ThinkPads, but every time a new generation comes out, I am proven wrong.

Not that lenovo should follow Apple, but Apple is the only manufacturer that integrated decent soundcards in their laptops and even their speakers are usually quite ok. If lenovo wants to keep copying Apple, THAT is the aspect they ought to be copying.
A budget laptop has a better microphone or camera than a ThinkPad. They should consider better parts. So far the X1 Carbon series were the only ones with remarkably well microphone and camera quality. The other models perform below average. Not that it has to be a portrait or anything. Just a small step up would be welcome.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#140 Post by lead_org » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:52 am

The back story was when we originally talked about the idea for ThinkPad Retro to David Hill at CES dinner, we talked about a 4:3 machine much like the old T60/T4x machine. But due to the prices and supply of 4:3 IPS screen on market either too small or expensive. Plan B with X30x design was used as a basis for the retro ThinkPad design.

Also when the survey comes up, I think logo colour, hinge, etc will be part of the survey.

I think in the end we ThinkPadders won, we got Lenovo to think long and hard about ThinkPad ultimate brand value. Also I was incredibly lucky to have meet with David Hill during CES and spoke at length about why we ThinkPadders love ThinkPad so much. I think that is what moved David, and ultimately influenced him to do the design rendering and write the blog.

P.S. I wasn't lying when I said Retro ThinkPad was coming all those months ago.
Current ThinkPad: T430u, T430s, X1 Carbon, X1, X230t, X220t, X230, X220, X201t, W520, W701ds, T500, T420 and many more

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#141 Post by asymptonic » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:21 pm

Exciting project. Just want to point out that some of the features of classic Thinkpads probably aren't needed anymore.
  • Ultrabay: Used for additional storage, optical media, extra battery. Additional storage is better served by a free 2.5in drive bay or even M.2 slot. Optical media is basically dead, and extra battery is taken care of by the internal/external battery paradigm on the Tx50 series. So I'm okay with this one not coming back, so long as the main use cases are addressed. Bonus points if the internal battery is replaceable.
  • Dock connector: Likely replaced by USB 3.1/Type C with its bidirectional charging, device daisy chaining, etc. I think what you're more likely to see is a new dock that attaches that way.
Repeating what most folks have already said though, the exciting bits for me:
  • The keyboard obviously.
  • More square screen with better real estate.
  • Thinklights. I use these in dark places to look at stuff on my desk or on the plane. As a touch typist I don't really need it to see the keyboard.
I just bought and love the T450s, with the exception of the above. I'd definitely find a home for it in place of a more classic design.

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Dream laptop concept 4:3 mod [56k WARNING]

#142 Post by mydreamlaptop » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:58 pm

Had some gripes with my T430 for a few years now and looking at later models they are much worse.
Last night I found out about the Retro / Time Machine ThinkPad project.
So here I am trying to get Lenovo to get back to making a productive work tool instead of chasing thinness/minimalism.

The good: It's a Thinkpad
-It's a Thinkpad
-It's a Thinkpad

The bad: The design in its current form as pictured has some possibly dealkilling issues (to me at least)
-16:10 screen (hardly different from 16:9, why even bother then)
-The Home & End keys cannot be reached from arrow keys without lifting hand

So here is some change...
The width is kept the same (13") but the screen height is increased, achieving a diagonal size of 15"
Also, the keyboard layout is slightly changed, bringing the navigation keys closer together.
Image

If you like it please show it to David Hill?

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#143 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:04 pm


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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#144 Post by jdrou » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:08 pm

bhtooefr wrote: mount SSDs on M.2,
Only if it's full-size M.2, not the 42mm ones.

Otherwise, I was a big fan of the 12" X-series machines until they stopped offering full-power CPUs. I also agree that trying to make laptops too thin is a big problem.

I would also want a real workstation-class machine though.
Current Thinkpads:
X31, X40, X61T, X61, X201, X220 (i7 IPS), W520 (2720QM/2000M/FHD), T440p (i7-4800MQ/GF730GT/FHD),
T480 (i7-8650U/GF150MX/QHD)
Dells: Latitude C840, Precision M70, Precision M4400, M6400 (WUXGA), M6600, M6700, Dell XPS 13 w/Kaby Lake+Iris Pro+TB3
Daily driver: T480

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#145 Post by bhtooefr » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:14 pm

Mind you, "full-power" CPUs, as of Broadwell, don't exist any more except as quad cores.

There are two power tiers of the "ULV" CPU - 15 and 23-28 (depending on generation - 28 for Haswell, 23 for Broadwell, and rumored to be 25 for Skylake), however - that high tier is really the old "LV" tier that was 25 W for Westmere, and 17 W for Penryn. And, when the higher wattage (really LV) version of the ULV tier is faster than the old full-voltage dual cores, and can (with the rumors for Skylake) come with a far better IGP...
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#146 Post by shawross » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:18 pm

Like any machine nowadays there will be trade off's between grunt and battery time. If Lenovo only bring back 1 "Retro" model this balance will be precarious which is why I can't see 1 model as being the Retro panacea if you like.
I don't think Lenovo need to reinvent the wheel here. From the blog consumers want an X220, an X301 and at least a T420.
Would it not be more economical to use these basic chassis with new mobo and screen? Maybe they can offer a larger battery for those in need.
Price will be an important consideration for prospective buyers obviously.
The survey maybe needs to examine these possibilities and this is a great opportunity to get this sorted and thanks to David for listening to the passionate thinkpad fan base.
Active --- Love the X series
X301 SU9400 IDA Mod - W 7 / X201 540M - W 7 / X220 2520 - W7

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#147 Post by hhhd1 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:33 pm

bhtooefr wrote:Mind you, "full-power" CPUs, as of Broadwell, don't exist any more except as quad cores.
I do not think that is true, Broadwell is sort of limited iteration of intel processors, it doesn't even have any desktop processors of i3/pentium/celeron, only 2 i7 and 3 i5 processors.

Skylake should be completely different.
===

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#148 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:48 pm

lead_org wrote: Also when the survey comes up, I think logo colour, hinge, etc will be part of the survey.
I certainly hope so, since for now all we have is the return of the classic keyboard - which shouldn't have gone anywhere in the first place - Thinklight for which the very same applies and possibly a 16:10 LCD. That hardly qualifies as "retro", especially given the 18mm thickness with everything that aspect implies and the recessed hinges on Mr. Hill's prototype.
P.S. I wasn't lying when I said Retro ThinkPad was coming all those months ago.
Well, lying you were not, but your post on reddit got the hopes of many people - myself included - way up high, with the possibility of 4:3 returning, which we now know won't happen. Mea culpa, I guess.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#149 Post by Bibin » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:03 pm

If an up-to-date X300 comes out, with modern internals and an IPS display, I'll buy it.

I would love to see a nice 4:3 ThinkPad but people need to realize that it's not happening. Unless a TINY iPad-sized display is used, there isn't a viable 4:3 display at the correct size. It can cost millions to invest in new panel R&D and manufacture; without many, many guaranteed orders it makes no sense for an LCD manufacturer to begin production of a new model. For the most part, they make what they can sell.

16:10 and 3:2 are our best options going forwards, at least for a first version of a laptop like this. Asking for 4:3 might give off an impression like, "They really want 4:3 displays, and we can't do that; is the project worth it if we can't fulfill people's wants?"

I hope the survey can help narrow down this sort of thing, but some people are making ABSURD requests in the comments. A "5-core AMD processor with liquid cooling"? Dual Ethernet, on a laptop? AMD graphics? Fanless CPU setups? An LCD in the touchpad!? What are people smoking? Do they want to diverge the project to death? If Lenovo can't get a somewhat clear vision of what people want, it will discourage this sort of project!
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#150 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:25 pm

Bibin wrote:If an up-to-date X300 comes out, with modern internals and an IPS display, I'll buy it.
If there's any consensus that one can find reading the comments - and yes, I've read through all of them - this seems to be the one, which is a compliment to Mr. Hill and then some...
I would love to see a nice 4:3 ThinkPad but people need to realize that it's not happening. Unless a TINY iPad-sized display is used, there isn't a viable 4:3 display at the correct size. It can cost millions to invest in new panel R&D and manufacture; without many, many guaranteed orders it makes no sense for an LCD manufacturer to begin production of a new model. For the most part, they make what they can sell.
I'm not buying this argument, and never will. There were screens in production not so long ago that could be altered to fit this requirement. Not to mention that Lenovo already sources a custom 3K IPS panel from Panasonic which is far from being standard...

Let's not forget that this is not going to be a $500 laptop...
16:10 and 3:2 are our best options going forwards, at least for a first version of a laptop like this.
I agree that this is a reasonable approach.
Asking for 4:3 might give off an impression like, "They really want 4:3 displays, and we can't do that; is the project worth it if we can't fulfill people's wants?"
If Lenovo can't get a somewhat clear vision of what people want, it will discourage this sort of project!
I honestly think that you're giving Lenovo too much credit with these two statements...

They've certainly created the largest media buzz ever to be associated with a single - yet to be presented "live" - product of their own, so that's a huge feather in their hat to begin with.

Secondly, they're just bringing back - maybe - what they took away without a good reason in the first place. While giving people the impression that they're doing them a favour. Excellent.

I have my opinion on what this project will look like in the end - presuming that we get to see its fruition at all - and those looking for a "modern X3**" will likely be quite happy with it. As for silly old me, I belong to a different (workstation) crowd that may remain empty-handed...
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