Thinkpads Forum

Puppy wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:32 pm

There are also several complains on Reddit about T470 build quality and BIOS basic functionality issues.

This does not bother me much. Such complaints have been there for every model, just different. I haven't seen a Thinkpad (except maybe X30x?) where someone hasn't complained about build quality. BIOS things typically do get resolved. I still remember the T60 BIOS version that broke USB peripherals during boot. It was fixed. The TOLUD issue that broke eGPU on X220 also got fixed, sort-of, I think.

Some things get better, others get worse, but overall the package remains acceptable. Except for the keyboard. The 6-row, to me, is no longer acceptable. Similarly, no trackpoint (or one without fully functional 3 buttons) would not be acceptable. No mechanical dock? Borderline (esp. since Thunderbolt docking is a viable option). No Ultrabay / Wired LAN? I guess even that would not be a deal breaker.

Like you said, it's mostly a "want", not a "need" thing. With a "classic Thinkpad keyboard" I would still feel it's a unique enough model for me to want to own. But other have different important criteria, and they are all legitimate.

dr_st wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:22 pm

I would still feel it's a unique enough model for me to want to own.

Let's wait how far from the unique it will be. Another issue for me can be insane pricing.

dr_st wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:22 pm

No Ultrabay / Wired LAN? I guess even that would not be a deal breaker.

Ultrabay is probably gone for anything less than 15" screen. Wouldn't surprise me if that happened to LAN soon as well; seems like manufacturers have decided anything less than 15" should be an "Ultrabook".

ODDs will be gone everywhere soon. There are only three systems left in the Thinkpad lineup, L570, E570 (so 15" budget) and P71.

Even the P51 as a non-Ultrabook doesn´t have an ODD/UltraBay. Lenovo used this space for other things, P51 has two 2.5" bays as standard, it also has a 90 Wh battery that doesn´t extend out of the system and it has a dual-fan cooling system.

LAN on the other hand is still very common in all the ThinkPad lines except X1 and ThinkPad Yoga, these have proprietary mini-RJ45 ports.

There is no replacement for LAN and never will be. Wi-Fi is unreliable and slow crap unless you're alone with your router on a desert island. It also does not work for some setups like virtual brigded network adapter.

When LAN gets omitted on "thin" PCs it will be excused by telling us to carry around a USB-Ethernet adapter. Just another way to shave .04" off the thickness of a machine at the cost of needing to buy and carry around another accessory...

Puppy wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:20 pm

There is no replacement for LAN and never will be.

This. Times a zillion.

theterminator93 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:46 pm

When LAN gets omitted on "thin" PCs it will be excused by telling us to carry around a USB-Ethernet adapter. Just another way to shave .04" off the thickness of a machine at the cost of needing to buy and carry around another accessory...

Well, considering that Wired LAN is something most people use relatively infrequently, it is not such an an unreasonable trade-off.

Another option is having the LAN only in the dock.

TPFanatic wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Are the Dell and HP "Trackpoints" also made by Synpatics? Perhaps you can install the Thinkpad Synpatics drivers on them, like some people in the past have installed HP Synaptics drivers on their Thinkpads (I tried it on my T500, it worked) as a means of gaining two-finger scrolling for the Touchpad, but they come bundled with HP's inferior pointing stick driver.

Apparently the Latitude E7440 also has the middle scrolling button :

The pointing stick located in the center of the 7440's keyboard is a reliable alternative to the touchpad. The rubberized grip makes it easy to manipulate the cursor without having to take your fingers away from the keyboard. Dell also features a button in between the upper set of mouse keys that allow you to quickly navigate to the top of a Web page or document when pointing up with the pointing stick.

But, as predicted...

We easily highlighted text and scrolled around websites using the Dell's pointing stick, but the Lenovo ThinkPad T440s' AccuPoint pointing stick provided a more accurate experience.

Oh well. My X220 is falling apart so if Lenovo keeps being mentally challenged so as to introduce yet another impaired Thinkpad in the coming months, I may take a long look at supar solutions like a Dell 7000 series or the Asus B8230UA

Summilux wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:30 am

or the Asus B8230UA

Terrible keyboard, especially the super-small cursor up/down keys

Puppy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:33 am

Terrible keyboard, especially the super-small cursor up/down keys

Indeed. Still, I refuse to buy a Lenovo which doesn't feature a 7 row non-island kbd (and even then !), so it's not like I'm spoilt for choice when it comes to new laptops coming with a trackpoint. Having to type on a chicklet kbd is already enough to swallow.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:49 pm

ODDs will be gone everywhere soon. There are only three systems left in the Thinkpad lineup, L570, E570 (so 15" budget) and P71.

Probably. Even 17" Precision has no ODD. They are rare enough that there are specific web reviews of 'laptops that still have optical drives in 2017'.
Having an extra 2.5" bay is a reasonable tradeoff (although I'd rather see something like the 4x M.2 slots my gaming laptop has in place of a 2nd HDD bay). The ones I hate are where the only significant tradeoff for the lack of ODD is that they made it slightly thinner as in the 14" models.

Regarding LAN, USB is surely going to replace it sooner or later for consumer devices. They could even make routers/switches with USB ports replacing some of the RJ45 ports. Probably only servers will still have RJ45 ports in a few years.

jdrou wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:04 pm

Regarding LAN, USB is surely going to replace it sooner or later for consumer devices. They could even make routers/switches with USB ports replacing some of the RJ45 ports. Probably only servers will still have RJ45 ports in a few years.

Nah. If it hasn't happened so far, it won't happen any time soon. In fact, there will probably be 2.5 Gigabit (and maybe 5 Gigabit) LAN in the client market before it will disappear completely.

USB has an inherently different design. It cannot connect host-to-host without a hack, and the stack for that is nowhere near as robust. USB to Ethernet, or Ethernet over Thunderbolt, however, may gain popularity.

dr_st wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:19 pm

USB has an inherently different design.

USB 3.1 SuperSpeed only is close to LAN by speed but there is serious limitation of maximum cable length compared to Ethernet. USB is still more a "bus" than "network" and has other issues like CPU utilization. So no, it can't solve it.

Puppy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:33 am

Summilux wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:30 am

or the Asus B8230UA

Terrible keyboard, especially the super-small cursor up/down keys

Not a tragic machine, however I can't see in what way does it beat the X-series.

https://rgbthink.com/ found on Reddit

And also this https://youtu.be/ukrFJClKaLA?t=8407

And as usual, they're not saying anything about a possible retro..
Just yapping a few seconds about a "full back featured [...] from history, mixed with most modern features from today"?????????????
The guy must be retarded...
Most "modern today" is supposedly the T470, which makes you already sick, just reading all the complaints about it. YUK!

As said many times before: bye, bye, retro...

Well, while a ton of salt and a healthy dose of cynicysm is very well justified, it is after all going to be - nominally - the machine this thread is about. Even if disappointing for some, it might be a machine far more interesting than anything on the market... Let's wait and see.

22hours 20 min till end of countdown of
https://rgbthink.com/
(weird timing ending at a XX:34 minutes i think)

not that long. Let us see.
I am eager to see what we will have, afraid to be disapointed but hopeful also.

T470 + 7row keyboard + 16/10 i preorder.
if it is 16:9, i dont think i would buy it.

Yes, if it has 16:9, one could - considering all hardships - force a 7 row keyboard there anyway with proper controller reflash. If not now, then in the future. This would be far cheaper than this machine, which probably will cost a mountain of gold...

bgx wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:14 pm

T470 + 7row keyboard + 16/10 i preorder.
if it is 16:9, i dont think i would buy it.

Everyone has their preferences, but to hinge it all on something as minor as a 16:10 vs 16:9 (which is a much smaller difference than 16:10 vs 4:3) seems... strange.

evening_hunger wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:12 am

Yes, if it has 16:9, one could - considering all hardships - force a 7 row keyboard there anyway with proper controller reflash. If not now, then in the future.

Which keyboard would you force in it? How? Are you going to manufacture your own? Might as well manufacture your own board and put it in a legacy shell, like the 51nb guys have been doing (rather successfully too).

IMO a Thinkpad is either "classic", or it is not:
From the long and proven tradition of Thinkpad classic means:

+ 7-row keyboard with trackpoint (non chicklet, by NMB)
+ 4:3 screen form factor, with high DPI and non-glare
+ clam shell

+ docking connector
+ ThinkLight
+ repairable

+ exchangeable battery
+ connectivity
etc.

Everything less than that is not a real Thinkpad.

lophiomys wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:13 am

From the long and proven tradition of Thinkpad classic means

...that we're not getting it from Lenovo anytime soon, if ever.

While there's life, there's Hope!

(Just to phrase this proverb in an optimistic way

Retro ThinkPad - Its Alive - blog post by David Hill.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:32 am

Retro ThinkPad - Its Alive - blog post by David Hill.

For those of us who are old enough to remember the movie that the phrase "It's alive" came from, Mr. Hill's blog post - long overdue IMO - has a chilling effect...since we remember what "it" looked like...

that's a nice post.

He just confirm things, and tell us we wont be dispointed (well, some people always expecting the moon will be disapointed, but there were 0 chance to make them happy anyway).

16/10 vs 16/9. I wish I could buy 4/3 or 3/2. But i got the message: 4:3 is not going to happen.

3:2 I think will eventually happen, but we need to be a bit more patient (coupld of years may be).

16:10 is very feasible, i dont ask for much, and I would be very [censored] if they dont do it and i will certainly n,ot buy a laptop if it is 16:9 even though the keyboard is fantastic.

dr_st wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:04 am

Everyone has their preferences, but to hinge it all on something as minor as a 16:10 vs 16:9 (which is a much smaller difference than 16:10 vs 4:3) seems... strange.

I completely agree. Up until a couple years ago, 16:10 vs. 16:9 was a fairly pronounced difference as the former maxed out at 1920x1200 while the latter at 1920x1080, and 1920x1200 is much more useful. But now that 16:9 laptops have exceeded 1920x1080, I no longer miss 1920x1200. If the Retro Thinkpad is going to be 14.0" 16:9, 2560x1440 would be ideal. If it's going to be 16:10, hopefully it's 2560x1600 and not 1920x1200.

another reason to get 16/10 instead of 16/9 is that a T470 with 16/10 would have very small bezel, while the current 16/9 in the T470 makes the bezel very big.

I prefer to have pixel than hugly plastic.

They cant fit 3:2 or 4:3 in a T470, or there would be big bezel on the side, which is not desirable either.