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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1261 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:27 pm

chx1975 wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:01 pm

That doesn't sound plausible. It wouldn't have taken two plus years to bring the old keyboard keyboard back for a chance of profit. Merely adding back the old keyboard and charging a 300 bonus for a modified palmrest and a keyboard which they need to keep producing anyways because corporate customers might want parts is not an earth shattering decision and I would've been happy to buy it.
You're partially correct. It wouldn't have taken two years for the route that you're describing. However...

Whoever ends up buying this system will be paying - IMO, since I have no actual facts to share - a *lot* more than a simple $300 upcharge for a 7-row keyboard, with the explanation of "well, we've worked hard on this for two years, you know, so yes, it's got to be on the more costly side...and it's an Anniversary model so..."

I'd love to be wrong on that one. Seriously.
But the winter will continue and our stocks now will need to last another five years if not more. I will stock up accordingly.
That's a very valid point. No questions asked. My own decision is going to be based on what the actual product ends up being.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1262 Post by Puppy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:01 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:16 am
not saying this is not Lenovos fault, but the key problem is that normal ThinkPads don´t target individual buyers, at all. Individual buyers are just the bonus. They target corporate.
So the corporate customers specifically asked to change 7-row keyboard to 6-row one, otherwise they'll stop buying ThinkPads ? I don't think so, it was just Lenovo attempt to create more generic laptops and change something (without thinking about that, of course). And we know that those who decide what laptop brand to buy actually never use the laptop after that.

I would expect an article explaining why the 6-row keyboard layout is better than the 7-row one. Remember that ? Probably no longer possible in Lenovo :( Logical and technical arguments supporting the change: Now that the product has officially announced, I can share a lot more of the research methodology and creative thinking that drove the changes to the keyboard

What research methodology has led to the 6-row layout, especially the navigation keys cluster split over opposite sides of the keyboard, is a mystery for me. The think part of the design process has gone.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1263 Post by bgx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:02 am

I agree that part of our criticisms during years helped make the retro thinkpad.
However, they were constructive critiscisms: bring back this, that, etc.

Now, i read a lot of criticism which is: the retro will fail, failed, i wont buy it, etc.
Why? What does that give you? Nothing! Try to be cautiously supportive. We surely will judge when we see the real product. I am eager and afraid to be disapointed of course, but I dont kill it even before knowing exactly what it is!

I think most of us agree there on the main feature we want back:
-build quality/robustness
-expandability
-7 row keyboard
-non 16/9 screens.

Yes, they screw up most of it, but unlike you, i dont think it is to screw me personally, but because there are reasons - i don't agree with but i understand:

1) price. yes, Thinkpad are cheaper than in the IBM area. Way more.
2) people want slimmer laptops. Luckily, our voices have been heard sine they chose the T470 base for a reason - not the slimmest laptop, and customability is a bit better than for others. While i would have preferred another base, i think this makes sense.
3) I think the main culprit of the bad decisions is 16/9. Several reasons for 16/9. First, it is the de facto standard. Hence it is easy to get 16/9from panel manufacturers (read uneasy to get anything else). Then you have stupid people wanting 16/9 to not have black band when they watch movies. I don't remember which website (wired, gizmodo, this kind) had this complain when testing a 3:2 screen (google pixel whatever). When i read it, i thought we were screwed, because that's what the mass thinks. Hence narrower keyboard area. Then you have people wanting bigger trackpads.
At the end, something had to go on the keyboard area, and it was the 7th row :(.


I really believe the retro project is a step in the right direction (at least for the 7th row), even if i may (or may not) be disappointed in the end by the overall machine.
I hope this is a success to push them to rethink some decision for the mainstream lines of thinkpads (at least to provide as expansive option)...

I bought a X40 new (my first thinkpad, my only one bought new - later i bought a second hand x60s (on this forum, the 1400*1050 IPS customized one on which i am now typing) as what was available was ugly 16/9 - X220 area).

If it is non 16/9 with french keyboard, i will certainly buy the T25 new (and expansive).
Worst case scenario (no good features on the usual thinkpad line), i make it live 5 years (as my previous laptops), and i can wait till the 30th anniversary.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1264 Post by shawross » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:11 am

http://fortune.com/2017/06/22/thinkpad- ... on-lenovo/


David Hill linked to this off Twitter so I am assuming it is fairly accurate and I am expecting a 16 x 10.

I would never buy a 16 x 9 Laptop regardless of make or model.

I am expecting something reasonable with the Retro
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1265 Post by Puppy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:00 am

shawross wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:11 am
David Hill linked to this off Twitter so I am assuming it is fairly accurate and I am expecting a 16 x 10.
The retro edition is also expected to have a taller, less wide screen that shows more top to bottom and less side to side. That helps show more of a spreadsheet than the movie screen like dimensions of current models.

It is still just speculation only.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1266 Post by bgx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:04 am

non 16/9. I want to believe. please make it happen.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1267 Post by evening_hunger » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:45 pm

I'm in Tokyo atm, I have to admit the Japanese have a taste (for million of things, and) for Panasonic. These Toughbooks are quite impressive machines. And now if you look here:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Panasonic ... 102.0.html

we get a 3:2 screen and without a TouchPoint, true it's with a 6-row, but nevertheless. The machine looks super robust, would do nicely on an intercontinental flight with turbulence:) [By the way, my x220 did fantastically in that regard.]
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1268 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:45 am

Thinkpadders, don't rejoice too soon that the Retro may be based on the T470! :BAAAD!:
Read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... _point_of/

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1269 Post by dr_st » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:28 am

That's a rather positive review, don't you think?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1270 Post by RealBlackStuff » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:09 am

It's these CONs I'm worried about:
- The bottom panel was very hard to get off...
- The screen pick up marks from the keyboard when being closed...
- Also the possibility of having higher transfer speeds with the 4 PCIe lanes [T470s] instead of 2 [T470]...
- The fingerprints were one of the reasons I have returned it (plus dark screen and tinny sound)...
- The [announced] rubberized paint on the Retro remains to be seen for its quality and duration...

The other PROs are nothing less than what one would expect these days.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1271 Post by Summilux » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:09 am

What Lenovo Is Planning For ThinkPad for ‘Superfans’
""Superfans"". Eh. I just feel insulted, brud'. Knowing that Lenovo isn't exactly looking after its fans.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1272 Post by Puppy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:40 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:25 am
Well, maybe you would. But David Hill is working on ThinkPads as a designer since 1995. You think he is going to abandon his lives work so easily?
It is there :( David Hill leaves Lenovo http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/rewiring/
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1273 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:27 am

If that is the Retro, then good luck, or rather good bye!
UGH, what happened to
The cheeky sod is leaving Lenovo, so he can't be blamed for yet another (retro) design-disaster.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1274 Post by Ibthink » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:09 am

The machine he is holding on that picture is the X1 Yoga Gen 2, not ThinkPad Retro.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1275 Post by theterminator93 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:40 am

Puppy wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:40 am
It is there :( David Hill leaves Lenovo http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/rewiring/
The blog post said he's stepping down from his position as vice president of design and continuing to work as a design consultant, so he's not really leaving Lenovo... but I do think I understand your point.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1276 Post by lophiomys » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:44 am

Ibthink wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:09 am
The machine he is holding on that picture is the X1 Yoga Gen 2, not ThinkPad Retro.
Thank God, that this is not the Retro.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1277 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:03 am

So, Mr. Hill has decided not to renew the lease of his soul to corporate borg. Or was it the other way around? We'll never know. The best of luck to him, nevertheless.

Now, if he were to join Panasonic...then we would have a chance of seeing a *proper* laptop again.

One can dream, right... :roll:
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1278 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:13 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:03 am
So, Mr. Hill has decided not to renew the lease of his soul to corporate borg. Or was it the other way around? We'll never know. The best of luck to him, nevertheless.

Now, if he were to join Panasonic...then we would have a chance of seeing a *proper* laptop again.

One can dream, right... :roll:
If he were to join panasonic, we would see videos like:

Dear Panasonic, I dropped my Laptop off the ISS, then ran it over a 150 car freight train and then put it through acid production facility and my files were still there :p

I hope that the Retro Thinkpad is a good success so the normal lines will become "retro" too.
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The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1279 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:43 pm

/r/thinkpad found a wild Retro Thinkpad. https://i.redditmedia.com/9eS1_Hq0aKTnb ... e5419fb9ac
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1280 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:50 pm

TPFanatic wrote:/r/thinkpad found a wild Retro Thinkpad. https://i.redditmedia.com/9eS1_Hq0aKTnb ... e5419fb9ac
David hill releases that with a battery. Problem solved :)

Its called a ThinkServerRackPad T92.
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1281 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:21 pm

Thinkpad4by3 wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:50 pm
TPFanatic wrote:/r/thinkpad found a wild Retro Thinkpad. https://i.redditmedia.com/9eS1_Hq0aKTnb ... e5419fb9ac
David hill releases that with a battery. Problem solved :)

Its called a ThinkServerRackPad T92.
That 1:1 display is almost two 16:9s on top of each other and more than two 21:9s, so you can watch two theatrical films at the same time! Superior than TVs on their own terms.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1282 Post by Summilux » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:32 am

Puppy wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:40 am
Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:25 am
Well, maybe you would. But David Hill is working on ThinkPads as a designer since 1995. You think he is going to abandon his lives work so easily?
It is there :( David Hill leaves Lenovo http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/rewiring/
Ha ha oh wow ! :mrgreen: :banana: :mrgreen: :banana: :mrgreen:
One small step towards betterness. He'll still be consulting but maybe he'd be available to consult for proper projects, say a community-driven Real Thinkpad Rebirth.

Hopefully other key engineers will leave Lenovo in the coming years.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1283 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:13 am

If anyone saw that Simpsons episode where Homer made his own car regardless of what the engineers said. We should do that. Problem solved.
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1284 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:03 pm

Cross your fingers and hope to god that David Hill never sees this picture:

http://i.imgur.com/BZ4hQZi.png

Even though it would still be better than xx40 series :)
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1285 Post by evening_hunger » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:59 am

Huawei has no problem to get 13 inch 2:3 too.. https://www.cnet.com/products/huawei-ma ... /review/2/
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1286 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:56 am

That's better than 1920x1200 so I guess I shouldn't complain... :? I like really 16:10 tho, particularly 15.4". There's no way the Retro would be a 15" though. Shame.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1287 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:21 am

It will probably be 13.3" - 14.1" anyway. Its just the most popular size of laptop. Anyway TPFanatic, would you rather have XGA 15.0" or UXGA 14.1"?

Unless its a stupid resolution size combo like 2048x2048 @ 1.0" 120Hz Kopin Lightning, resolution is more important than size. I'd be thankful they even decided to make one less than complaining that its too small. Maybe use a pair of reading glasses to make it appear bigger? I'd suffer for a tiny screen for a good keyboard. We all did it with the X-series. Now if that screen was anything less than the TN on the W70x, well you have every right in the book to go full force against Lenovo and I'd support you on that front. Its like if someone released a 100MP camera that had the quality of potato. Thats no fun...

David Hill decided to the Thinkpad out of the corporate guillotine of Mac Users, now can he undo the damage right?
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1288 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:42 am

I'd take the 14" UXGA. I'm a high resolution person but I also like the screen to be physically large. 14" 4:3 is big enough for me, it's like 15.4" just with 83% of the width. I can also live with the 12" physical screen size of my X60s but the XGA resolution really hurts it for me. My preferences are as follows: 1280 WXGA is pleasant, 1440x900 feels weird, 1600x900 is borderline, 1600x1200 is fine, 1680x1050 is fine, 1920x1200 is excellent, 15.4" 2560x1600 is my pipe dream.

I admittedly prefer 16:10 to 4:3, it is a very pleasant looking rectangle. The latter has a great form factor.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1289 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:57 am

TPFanatic wrote:I'd take the 14" UXGA. I'm a high resolution person but I also like the screen to be physically large. 14" 4:3 is big enough for me, it's like 15.4" just with 83% of the width. I can also live with the 12" physical screen size of my X60s but the XGA resolution really hurts it for me. My preferences are as follows: 1280 WXGA is pleasant, 1440x900 feels weird, 1600x900 is borderline, 1600x1200 is fine, 1680x1050 is fine, 1920x1200 is excellent, 15.4" 2560x1600 is my pipe dream.

I admittedly prefer 16:10 to 4:3, it is a very pleasant looking rectangle. The latter has a great form factor.
Well, your dreams are almost answered: IPS 2560x1600 13.3".

Problem, no backlight stock, and 2" smaller than you want.

Also, 1440x900 isnt great, I dont like it.
Thinkpad4by3's Law of the Universe.

The efficiency of two screens equally sized with equal numbers if pixels are equal. The time spent by a 4:3 user complaining about 16:9 is proportional to the inefficiency working with a 16:9 display, therefore the amount of useful work extracted is equal.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1290 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:26 pm

One thing that has been boggling my mind for the past decade is how no manufacturer - at least that I'm aware of - came up with a 14" 1680x1050. That, in my book, would've been simply perfect.

After playing with a plethora of various resolutions for years, here's what I've come up with when it comes to widescreen format:

1280x800, 1440x900, 1366x768, 1600x900 - worthless.

1680x1050 - bare minimum

1920x1200 - I don't believe that I could tolerate it on a 14" screen for a prolonged period of time, outright perfect for 15.4" and even 17.0"

1920x1080 - Why bother. Never understood that one, at all. If I had absolutely no other choice, I could get used to it on a 14" (barely), 15.6" or 17". But I'd rather not.

This is what works - or not - for me. Obviously, YMMV and then some.

With that being said, a "classic" or "retro" ThinkPad is not worthy of either of these terms unless it's a 4:3. and we know that's not happening.

I'd take a 3:2, or even 16:10 presuming a quality panel with decent resolution. If it turns out to be 16:9, I'll most definitely pass on it.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

FlexView AARP club members:A31p, T43pSF

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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