Thinkpads Forum

Windows 10 will be a hit if MS can cater to the W7 crowd.
Sooner or later MS won't be in a position to dictate to their
users; it's not the 90s anymore.

ajkulla66 wrote:b) Option of choosing between UEFI and conventional BIOS as seen on *20 generation.

And what do you mean by that if I may ask? The Tx20 generation always has UEFI, which you can either use in UEFI or in BIOS mode. But the same thing holds true for every other non-Tablet ThinkPad since then. Either its UEF or legacy BIOS mode...

In fact, a ThinkPad with both UEFI and BIOS (seperate) does not exist. Its always the UEFI that emulates BIOS if you are in legacy mode. The only difference regarding the Tx20 models: Its an older UEFI version, compared with the newer models (not Windows 8 ready as the newer ones).

bit_twiddler wrote:Windows 10 will be a hit if MS can cater to the W7 crowd.
Sooner or later MS won't be in a position to dictate to their
users; it's not the 90s anymore.

They are not in the position to do this.

With Windows 10, Microsoft tries to cater both to the Windows 7 and to the Windows 8 crowd, though I would say they even cater a bit more to the Windows 7 crowd.

Ibthink wrote:

ajkulla66 wrote:b) Option of choosing between UEFI and conventional BIOS as seen on *20 generation.

And what do you mean by that if I may ask? The Tx20 generation always has UEFI, which you can either use in UEFI or in BIOS mode.

Exactly what you wrote in different words...

But the same thing holds true for every other non-Tablet ThinkPad since then. Either its UEF or legacy BIOS mode...

I wouldn't know first hand since I haven't bought a ThinkPad newer than *20...that's why I stick with what I know.

In fact, a ThinkPad with both UEFI and BIOS (seperate) does not exist.

My choice of words was rather poor in the first place, but I don't believe that any PC - not just ThinkPads - offers both.

I've even had a netbook (Aspire One D250) that used a UEFI, but didn't support using UEFI to boot - it only used its compatibility support module to emulate a BIOS.

There might be a machine somewhere that shipped with a conventional BIOS, and then was later updated to a UEFI, but I doubt that.

Puppy wrote:BTW I have heard rumors that IBM employees are currently receiving MacBooks as old ThinkPad upgrades.

Guy I know at IBM got an upgrade not too long ago. He was coming from a 14W T61 and was given the option of either a loaded W530 or an equivalent Toshiba. All his previous issued laptops were Thinkpads, no choice.

He said that only a comparatively small number of folks there are given Macbooks, and only because they're absolutely needed.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Who gives a sh*t how it looks like? You're not supposed to look at it anyway. You're supposed to look at the screen and type 'blind'.

lophiomys wrote: In general,
I consider those bloody newish keyboards - in their variations of bendy bases, chicklets, less-than-7-rows, keys-being-moved-around and poor tactile response - as blunt cost cutting measures and management failure.

Word.

And now for something completely different:



(as seen on Woot)

theterminator93 wrote:Windows 7 is too stable and too compatible with existing applications that (in these environments) are often Windows XP carry-overs. The money isn't there to just "upgrade" for the sake of being new - there has to be a reason to.

Ironically, it is stability, or rather the lack of it, that makes me anxious to upgrade and leave 7 behind. For people with minimal exposure to Vista (with SP2) or 8.1, 7 and XP seem very stable. But having used all four versions extensively, I find Vista SP2 and 8.1 to be infinitely more stable than both 7 and XP. Seriously, I have had zero blue screens or freezes or programs quitting on their own in Vista SP2 or 8.1, and dividing any non-zero number by zero gives infinity.

pianowizard wrote:

theterminator93 wrote:Windows 7 is too stable and too compatible with existing applications that (in these environments) are often Windows XP carry-overs. The money isn't there to just "upgrade" for the sake of being new - there has to be a reason to.

Ironically, it is stability, or rather the lack of it, that makes me anxious to upgrade and leave 7 behind. For people with minimal exposure to Vista (with SP2) or 8.1, 7 and XP seem very stable. But having used all four versions extensively, I find Vista SP2 and 8.1 to be infinitely more stable than both 7 and XP. Seriously, I have had zero blue screens or freezes or programs quitting on their own in Vista SP2 or 8.1, and dividing any non-zero number by zero gives infinity.

Well, the only times I've seen BSODs on my 7 machines has been when poorly written drivers crash, which hasn't been a problem for me in the last several years.

Now what I've seen in the field is that 7's compatibility with most of the old programs written for XP and earlier is good. In fact I can only think of one old (late 90s) program that isn't stable. If 8.1 or 10 are even better in that regard, considering identical environments (hardware and programs), well then...

pianowizard wrote:

theterminator93 wrote:Windows 7 is too stable and too compatible with existing applications that (in these environments) are often Windows XP carry-overs. The money isn't there to just "upgrade" for the sake of being new - there has to be a reason to.

Ironically, it is stability, or rather the lack of it, that makes me anxious to upgrade and leave 7 behind. For people with minimal exposure to Vista (with SP2) or 8.1, 7 and XP seem very stable. But having used all four versions extensively, I find Vista SP2 and 8.1 to be infinitely more stable than both 7 and XP. Seriously, I have had zero blue screens or freezes or programs quitting on their own in Vista SP2 or 8.1, and dividing any non-zero number by zero gives infinity.

If you multiple with n= NIHIL it's pretty much the same anyway.

As for BSOD's; usually bad drivers. Usually not microsoft's fault. Most BSOD's I have on my Thinkpads are traced to malfunctioning nVidia drivers.

lophiomys wrote:

MrMaguire wrote:Fair enough. But doesn't the Windows key (or rather the super key) also have its uses in Linux?

IMO it might have, but it is just not necessary. This unfortunate Windows keys just reduce the size of CTRL and ALT keys, and make live more difficult. But again: if Lenovo would offer a keyboard option for typists and Linux/Unix users and fans of the Classic Thinkpad that could be a non-issue.

In general,
I consider those bloody newish keyboards - in their variations of bendy bases, chicklets, less-than-7-rows, keys-being-moved-around and poor tactile response - as blunt cost cutting measures and management failure.

I find Windows key extremely useful in linux, as I made it a shortcut for terminal. It allows me to launch it multiple times faster than by any other way, be it 2 key shortcut or mouse clicking.

In fact I love T430's layout of the keyboard, it's literally perfect for me. I'm so happy they put 'page up' and 'page down' keys next to arrows, it's extremely useful when reading or writing documents. It's so convenient that it's hard for me to use any other keyboard now.

You don't use Home / End to navigate? They are now separate from page up / page down, making it only harder.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:You don't use Home / End to navigate? They are now separate from page up / page down, making it only harder.

Indeed.

While I prefer the T4x keyboard layout, my opinion is that the one found on T6x and consequent series prior to *10 generation would be optimal for most users. With that being said, I could definitely live with the layout that Mr. Hill's prototype currently proposes...

The layout in the artist impression pics on the the blogpost is simply the layout used on T400s up untill (and including) the *20 series. Minus the forward / back keys.

I think lenovo should not do this retro project, instead, they should put back the new size screen and the keyboard on the T and W and X series.

I've read about 200 consective comments on lenovo blog about the proposed design, without passing by a single message saying that they prefer 16:9 screens, or the new keyboard layout, one have to wonder what exactly did lenovo base its decision when they made those moves, .. the 16:9 screens are not going to be missed.

For the screen, a company with the size of lenovo should be able to get screen with whatever size they want, even if it is 16:11.012345 aspect ratio! , once it is in mass production, the unit price should be acceptable, trying to find a bargain screen to through in the mix is not a good idea IMO.

For the keyboard, they should offer variety that would make everyone happy:
1. old layout, new chiclets buttons.
2. old layout, classic buttons.
3. new layout, new chicklets buttons.
The variation will end up making everyone happy. even lenovo, as it will also drive some upgrade sales for people looking to upgrade the keyboard.

hhhd1 wrote: For the keyboard, they should offer variety that would make everyone happy:
1. old layout, new chiclets buttons.
2. old layout, classic buttons.
3. new layout, new chicklets buttons.
The variation will end up making everyone happy. even lenovo, as it will also drive some upgrade sales for people looking to upgrade the keyboard.

This type of solution would call for the type of keyboard to be selectable in BIOS. I wouldn't mind having it as an option, but highly doubt that Lenovo would oblige...

hhhd1 wrote:I think lenovo should not do this retro project, instead, they should put back the new size screen and the keyboard on the T and W and X series.

I've read about 200 consective comments on lenovo blog about the proposed design, without passing by a single message saying that they prefer 16:9 screens, or the new keyboard layout, one have to wonder what exactly did lenovo base its decision when they made those moves, .. the 16:9 screens are not going to be missed.

For the screen, a company with the size of lenovo should be able to get screen with whatever size they want, even if it is 16:11.012345 aspect ratio! , once it is in mass production, the unit price should be acceptable, trying to find a bargain screen to through in the mix is not a good idea IMO.

For the keyboard, they should offer variety that would make everyone happy:
1. old layout, new chiclets buttons.
2. old layout, classic buttons.
3. new layout, new chicklets buttons.
The variation will end up making everyone happy. even lenovo, as it will also drive some upgrade sales for people looking to upgrade the keyboard.

No, the variation will make everyone unhappy, since they are probably sold with the wrong one for most people, and then everyone is stuck with costs for a replacement keyboard.

As for allowing different keyboards; they could have done exactly that with the *30 series, and they didn't.

As for anyone not missing 16:9; it's the same with QWERTY-EU vs QWERTY-US; I only know of people not knowing the difference and those that absolutely want the US qwerty layout. Yet Logitech persists in flooding the market here with the stupid 105 key EU layout that cuts the left shift in half.

We don't know what Lenovo will do for the future model. As the ThinkPad Retro project was never part of their original product rollout plan. It was only an idea that was known by only a few executives. But now they know there is a strong market reaction to it, they will now pursue it as a business case (as you might be aware from the torrents of blog comments on the ThinkPad Time Machine blog).

Original plan was that if the Retro Project did not meet the public expectation, but the market still reacted strongly to elements of the retro design, i.e. keyboard, they could use that design elements in the future products.

Given the Retro ThinkPad will be a limited run, and the broader customer base within the enterprise market probably won't be ordering it, there is a high likelihood that 7 rows keyboard could make a comeback in other model of machines as an option. But that is speculation on my part.

I hope the poll comes out this week.

lead_org wrote: likelihood that 7 rows keyboard could make a comeback in other model of machines as an option. But that is speculation on my part.

Well, from your lips/keyboard to whoever's ears, as long as it happens...

I hope the poll comes out this week.

Very much looking forward to that event...

ajkula66 wrote:This type of solution would call for the type of keyboard to be selectable in BIOS. I wouldn't mind having it as an option, but highly doubt that Lenovo would oblige...

To be fair, they could move the keyboard controller onto the keyboard, instead of scanning the matrix on the motherboard under UEFI/embedded controller control. That way, the keyboard type would be handled in the keyboard itself, and the motherboard would just see a PS/2 keyboard, just like it sees a PS/2 mouse with the TrackPoint.

In any case, offering both 6 and 7-row keyboards on the same machine is... not optimal, because most of the reason for a 6-row keyboard is to enlarge the trackpad. (The other reason is to put Page Up and Page Down by the arrow keys, but if they're mapped like the old browser forward/back keys from the 3x through x2x machines, with unique scancodes, they could easily resurrect Keyboard Customizer Utility to remap those to page up/page down, on a 7-row layout.) That means that there needs to be two palmrests as well as two keyboards to get any benefit from offering a 6-row keyboard. A big trackpad does let you do things a lot more efficiently than a small one, especially on a large screen - the only trackpads I'll tolerate are Apple's, because they're big and the gestures work quite well.)

As an aside, really, the T60 trackpad (which was mentioned as being great) was crap - I know, I had one, and I quickly disabled it due to it being crap (and the TrackPoint being there, of course).

There is absolutely no reason to offer multiple keyboard types on the same machine.

If the goal is to design a retro/classic/traditional Thinkpad, the keyboard should match the design.

Those who prefer the new type of keyboard can take their pick among the wide variety of modern Lenovo Thinkpads.

I think that would be more for offering a 7-row option across the lineup, while still offering a 6-row option for those that want a larger trackpad.

bhtooefr wrote:A big trackpad does let you do things a lot more efficiently than a small one, especially on a large screen - the only trackpads I'll tolerate are Apple's, because they're big and the gestures work quite well.)

I have used fairly small touchpads on more than a few 17" 16:10 laptops and don't have any problem. It's crucial to maximize the pointer's speed, so that you don't have to swipe many times to move the pointer a great distance.

I dislike huge touchpads because the bigger they get, the more likely we would touch them accidentally. To prevent that from happening, I often end up keeping my hands and arms at awkward angles or raising them uncomfortably high.

bhtooefr wrote:As an aside, really, the T60 trackpad (which was mentioned as being great) was crap - I know, I had one, and I quickly disabled it due to it being crap (and the TrackPoint being there, of course).

I know it was great because I had one. Both the surface texture and small size were great. I liked the buttons as well.

I can live quite happily without a touchpad entirely...

theterminator93 wrote:I can live quite happily without a touchpad entirely...

+1 and then some...

bhtooefr wrote:[...]
To be fair, they could move the keyboard controller onto the keyboard, instead of scanning the matrix on the motherboard under UEFI/embedded controller control. That way, the keyboard type would be handled in the keyboard itself, and the motherboard would just see a PS/2 keyboard, just like it sees a PS/2 mouse with the TrackPoint.

No, then you can't use old stock *20 series keyboards. Unless there is a large gain, leave "as is" for maximum compatibility.

bhtooefr wrote: In any case, offering both 6 and 7-row keyboards on the same machine is... not optimal, because most of the reason for a 6-row keyboard is to enlarge the trackpad.

I never realized that that huge piece of plastic above the keyboard was a trackpad.

Seriously? What larger trackpad? Most -if not all- of the space "gained" was used to add bezel. The same can be said about 16:9 screens.

bhtooefr wrote: (The other reason is to put Page Up and Page Down by the arrow keys, but if they're mapped like the old browser forward/back keys from the 3x through x2x machines, with unique scancodes, they could easily resurrect Keyboard Customizer Utility to remap those to page up/page down, on a 7-row layout.) That means that there needs to be two palmrests as well as two keyboards to get any benefit from offering a 6-row keyboard. A big trackpad does let you do things a lot more efficiently than a small one, especially on a large screen - the only trackpads I'll tolerate are Apple's, because they're big and the gestures work quite well.)

It also will make you do things less efficient because accidental touches and swipes will be off the chart. I don't tolerate any trackpads whatsoever. My fingers are often too dry. That includes Apple's.

theterminator93 wrote:I can live quite happily without a touchpad entirely...

Me too, but I am even happier if I have both. Alternating between touchpad and trackpoint prevents repetitive strain injury. Also, one interface is better than the other depending on the circumstance.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:It also will make you do things less efficient because accidental touches and swipes will be off the chart.

For people who never use the touchpad anyway, the solution is easy: disable it permanently.

For this Classic Thinkpad, I think Lenovo should include a touchpad as well as a trackpoint to appeal to as many users as possible, so that this model would have the highest possible chance of success. As mentioned earlier, I personally would rather have a tiny touchpad, but I also recognize that not many people are comfortable with small touchpads. I guess the best compromise would be a medium-sized touchpad. But regardless of what size the touchpad is, it'd better have mechanical buttons!

pianowizard wrote:But regardless of what size the touchpad is, it'd better have mechanical buttons!

I couldn't agree more...

pianowizard wrote:For this Classic Thinkpad, I think Lenovo should include a touchpad as well as a trackpoint to appeal to as many users as possible, so that this model would have the highest possible chance of success. As mentioned earlier, I personally would rather have a tiny touchpad, but I also recognize that not many people are comfortable with small touchpads. I guess the best compromise would be a medium-sized touchpad. But regardless of what size the touchpad is, it'd better have mechanical buttons!

The original idea for the Retro ThinkPad was quite different in this regard: Originally, it was supposed to have an "invisible" TouchPad. Which would mean a TouchPad without buttons or click functionality at all, only the Touch-part, completely seamlessly integrated into the rubbery palmrest. This was focused at ThinkPad fans who didn´t want a TouchPad.

I don´t think Lenovo will ever do a completely touchpadless ThinkPad again, so this would have been a nice compromise...I guess it was a it to radical for the final puplication of the blog (as the 4:3 aspect ration, that was the original idea).

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Seriously? What larger trackpad?

I advise you to take a look at the X240 or the X250. These machines have roughly (meaning like a few mm difference) footprint size as X220 and X230, yet, a much bigger palmrest and also a much bigger, finally usable TouchPad (because the X220/X230 is the worst TouchPad ever put on a ThinkPad). This is because the 7th row of the X220 (as well as the black plastic bar that replaced it on the X230) is gone with these models, and the keyboard is moved back.

The same holds true to a lesser extend to the 14" machines (in case of the T440s/T450s, the additional room was also used to minimize bezels and make the footprint smaller). For 15" its non-important, thats true.

Ibthink wrote:Originally, it was supposed to have an "invisible" TouchPad. Which would mean a TouchPad without buttons or click functionality at all, only the Touch-part, completely seamlessly integrated into the rubbery palmrest.

That would have been a horrible idea, much worse than the buttonless *40 series.

I am a touchpad user myself, i use the touchpad 80% of the time, and the trackpoint 20% of the time.