Thinkpads Forum

Summilux wrote:

bhtooefr wrote: I also suspect that it has something to do with the top semi-glossy layer of the screen and either an anti-reflective coating flaking off (it's similar to how a cheaper pair of anti-reflective lenses I had in glasses fail) or how it's bonded, with the bezel and webcam behind it.

Yes, I too think that's where the issue comes from. Not from the screen itself but from the glass they put over.

That being said, the most similar thing I can think of, is the appearance of white spots on Thinkpads' IPS screens. I had that happen to me on both my T60 and my X220.

On the Retina Macbook Pro, the glass is mated to the LCD, a custom order from Apple, unlike the older Unibody pros. There isn't an AR coating in the entire thing, but morel likely an issue with some bonding agent between the front polarization layer and the glass.

White spots come from dents or nicks in the backlight reflector. A small fleck of dust can do it if it gets in the right spot.

murak wrote: The fact that we are now even talking about a "retro" thinkpad is proof that something went wrong. ...

That said I also don't like that the project is called "retro", as so many have already stated, it should be called "real" or "what-the-customer-wants" thinkpad.

I was thinking along similar lines myself this morning. The newer ThinkPads remind me of the New Coke flap back in 1985 or so.

Like Coca-Cola, who (responding to customer dissatisfaction) brought back the original Coke and re-branded it "Coca-Cola Classic" We could call this retro ThinkPad a "Classic ThinkPad."

I'd be surprised if "Retro" wound up in the final product name. Thinkpad Classic seems like a usable name, providing they don't just use this monumental feedback as a reason to reintegrate the design into the main ThinkPad lines anyway.

murak wrote:The fact that we are now even talking about a "retro" thinkpad is proof that something went wrong. I don't belive that David is doing this only for the fun (even though I think he is enjoying it )

Hello Murak, I was about to say "welcome" but remarked that you've been a registered user for some time already. Glad that this project brought you out of your lurking

As for your remarks, here's my cynical, outsider take on what happened at Lenovo C-level meetings:

1. "We're not competitive. Apple keeps selling well. Let's get some inspiration from them."

2. "As expected, there's some backlash from the old-timers. But who cares really, they're just a tiny group of customers."

3. "We aren't much more popular but let's keep trying. We'll be proven right eventually. Tell your designers to complete the transformation and fiddle with the trackpoint/touchpad. Buttons are for geezers, it's all about touch nowadays. Oh and solder some RAM whilst you're at it."

4. "Uh oh. We're getting quite some flak for that. Even from the mainstream press. Okay, let's backtrack and give them their buttons back."

5. "Well. The sales remain far from our goals. We still aren't the serious player we used to be. What if... what if we backtracked completely? Maybe our old designs were somehow efficient. Let's try that and name the project 'retro', that way people will think we're only doing it for hipsters."

Bibin wrote: On the Retina Macbook Pro, the glass is mated to the LCD, a custom order from Apple, unlike the older Unibody pros. There isn't an AR coating in the entire thing, but morel likely an issue with some bonding agent between the front polarization layer and the glass.

White spots come from dents or nicks in the backlight reflector. A small fleck of dust can do it if it gets in the right spot.

I'd be surprised if there weren't at least one AR coating on the outer side of the glass.

And thank you for those info. Do you think a better protection and sealing of the reflector could durably fix this type of issue?

Summilux wrote:here's my cynical, outsider take on what happened at Lenovo C-level meetings:

1. "We're not competitive. Apple keeps selling well. Let's get some inspiration from them."

I've been suspecting that for some time.

"Hey, apple is sleek and trendy, let's be more like them" is the impression I've been getting.

Here's the thing. I don't go for sleek and trendy.

Here's another thing, people who buy ThinkPads don't buy i-fruit (by and large; though I know a lot of us have and even like Apple equipment).

Likewise, people who buy i-fruit wouldn't be caught dead with a PC... especially a clunky ThinkPad.

If you make your ThinkPads more like i-fruits with the goal of increasing sales, you're dead on arrival. People who like i-fruits aren't going to buy a knockoff pc wanna-be i-fruit. And people who like ThinkPads aren't going to want the new product either.

Let Apple be Apple. That's what they do. You be ThinkPad. That's what you do, and you used to do it well.

Summilux wrote:here's my cynical, outsider take on what happened at Lenovo C-level meetings:

1. "We're not competitive. Apple keeps selling well. Let's get some inspiration from them."

Agreed.

And I wonder why they didn't copy Apple's 16:10 screen, or their thin design with 45w quad core plus nvidia without major throttling issues like the w540/w541 have.

Even Lenovo's w550s with 15w TDP have throttling issues.

Instead they destroyed the touchpad/trackpoint.

hhhd1 wrote:

Summilux wrote:here's my cynical, outsider take on what happened at Lenovo C-level meetings:

1. "We're not competitive. Apple keeps selling well. Let's get some inspiration from them."

Agreed.

And I wonder why they didn't copy Apple's 16:10 screen, or their thin design with 45w quad core plus nvidia without major throttling issues like the w540/w541 have.

Even Lenovo's w550s with 15w TDP have throttling issues.

Instead they destroyed the touchpad/trackpoint.

Because, when you try to be like someone else, ESPECIALLY if that someone else seems sleek and sophosticated, you end up with superficial mimicry at best.

Style over substance if you will.

Apple has substance because it is Apple. Apple machines look like they do because it arises from Apple's long standing design philosophy which is integrated with how they build machines.

ThinkPad copying Apple only copies the style, not the substance. They have their own way of building machines and they are trying to simply graft Apple's style to that.

The simple answer is that Lenovo's main ThinkPad customers are enterprises, they buy them in thousands per order. Pricing had to remain competitive against HP and Dell's similar offerings.

Retro ThinkPad idea came about because of this year's CES. This is a purely community driven project (so your voice counts). This is why there are so many surveys to to this project.

David Hill has given opportunity for all the community groups to voice their opinions on their ideal ThinkPad designs through the sequential surveys that are taking place right now. So please participate in the surveys and also let everyone of your ThinkPad friends know about the surveys.

Yes, Lead, and you have stated this earlier in the thread (or in another one).

But I don't think this contradicts our hypothesis on the matter.
David Hill, better than anyone at Lenovo, knew about the community feelings over the Thinkpad changes. From day one and ever since. Yet, for around three consecutive years, Lenovo kept heading the wrong way. This cannot be a coincidence.

And indeed, this was no coincidence. Because everyone was going the Apple way, including HP and Dell.
Now everyone is driving the prices down to align with each other... but where's the competitive advantage? Everyone looks the same! Same thinness, same screen format, same keyboard, same CPU/GPU, similar warranties, similar bloatware/software and similar prices.
Which company should be picked?

Clearly Lenovo has been beaten to this clone game. Something they seem to have finally realised (i.e. they strategy failed), and are now in search of a differentiator which could translate into more sales. Which reminded them of our complaintss and brought them back to basics.

Of course we're all interested in this project, and all of us posting here are eagerly awaiting the next surveys. Especially those like me who refused to settle (i.e. buy) for newer Lenovo products. We're stakeholders.

Lot of business decisions are not design based, they are more financial and statistical in nature. Designers don't run business units, or make the final decisions, which is either a good or bad thing.

I think Lenovo is changing, it has become more willing to open up its management structure to the small customers (but very vocal), and listen to what they have to say. This was how i was able to be included in teleconference call with their Vice Presidents (or meet them in person), and make my case on why Retro ThinkPad project was/is a good idea in May 2015.

I think it is okay to be critical of Lenovo's past design intentions for ThinkPad, but you CAN'T fault them for taking steps to correct certain design abbreviations, or let the customers voice their opinions on the future of the brand. No other brand is doing it, or even willing to consider such move (but then again no one really collects HP, Dell, ASUS or ACER laptops like ThinkPadders do).

P.S. Survey 2 is coming up in 5 hours, so please participate.

lead_org wrote: I think it is okay to be critical of Lenovo's past design intentions for ThinkPad, but you CAN'T fault them for taking steps to correct certain design abbreviations, or let the customers voice their opinions on the future of the brand. No other brand is doing it, or even willing to consider such move (but then again no one really collects HP, Dell, ASUS or ACER laptops like ThinkPadders do).

P.S. Survey 2 is coming up in 5 hours, so please participate.

No, we certainly can't. And I hope those design innovators at Lenovo realize that some of the meaner sounding things being said come out of love for what their product can be.

And I want to thank you, lead_org, for trying to keep us on a positive consistent message. It's all too easy to get caught in a cycle of complaining, and then doing only that.

I agree that this is a fantastic opportunity to interact with the Lenovo design team and I am going to take full advantage of it.

Summilux wrote: Hello Murak, I was about to say "welcome" but remarked that you've been a registered user for some time already. Glad that this project brought you out of your lurking

Yes, I just saw that it was my first post and that I indeed had been lurking all along.. My bad

And yes, I am thrilled about this "retro" project and also very thankful to be a part of it! That such a big company like Lenovo is listening like this is amazing.

Looking forward to that second survey!

second ThinkPad Retro survey is up.

http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... -keyboard/

I've participated already....

1.) Most liked-TP: X220
2.) Keyboard lighting: ThinkLight!
3.) Internet Forward/Back: 7-Row without web browsing keys
4.) Enter key: Blue
5.) Volume/Mic/Speaker: Dedicated (just like at T410s and X220)
6.) Display Size: 13.3''
7.) Display Res: FHD
8.) Type of Display: Non-touch matte
9.) Aspect Ratio: 16:10
10.) LED Status Lights: Power, Battery, WLAN, WWAN,..

Summilux wrote:Clearly Lenovo has been beaten to this clone game. Something they seem to have finally realised (i.e. they strategy failed), and are now in search of a differentiator which could translate into more sales.

In terms of sales, Lenovo is doing just fine -- it is the #1 laptop seller worldwide. But what really matters is profit margin, and Lenovo isn't doing that great. I tried to find more recent figures but this is the best that I found, from Apr 2013: http://www.cheatsheet.com/popular/apple ... ?a=viewall

The most crucial plots are the last two, showing "operating margin per unit shipped" and "operating profit from PC sales Q4 2012". On a per-unit basis, Lenovo lagged slightly behind HP, and quite far behind both Asus and Dell. And of course, Apple beat everyone else by a huge margin.

murak wrote:That such a big company like Lenovo is listening like this is amazing.

It's not that amazing, because it is a big but struggling company. What's amazing is that Acer (which is struggling even worse) isn't soliciting feedback.

Lenovo is big, and it is not that profitable per unit shipment, but it is not struggling financially. HP is doing well because of the former printer business (which has been spun off as a separate company), otherwise it is not really that much better than Lenovo. Also, if Dell was really doing that well, it wouldn't have become a privately held company.

PC is not profitable.

lead_org wrote:Lenovo is big, and it is not that profitable per unit shipment, but it is not struggling financially.

It is struggling to reach its financial goals. It isn't seeking user feedback out of charity, you know.

lead_org wrote:Also, if Dell was really doing that well, it wouldn't have become a privately held company.

Dell went private so that it could become more innovative, and recent products do reflect that.

lead_org wrote:PC is not profitable.

And Lenovo depends on PC sales much more than both Dell and HP.

lead_org wrote: I think Lenovo is changing, it has become more willing to open up its management structure to the small customers (but very vocal), and listen to what they have to say. This was how i was able to be included in teleconference call with their Vice Presidents (or meet them in person), and make my case on why Retro ThinkPad project was/is a good idea in May 2015.

I think it is okay to be critical of Lenovo's past design intentions for ThinkPad, but you CAN'T fault them for taking steps to correct certain design abbreviations, or let the customers voice their opinions on the future of the brand. No other brand is doing it, or even willing to consider such move (but then again no one really collects HP, Dell, ASUS or ACER laptops like ThinkPadders do).

I may sound harsh but I'm actually less critical of their design decisions than of their sustained attitude of not giving a dang about our (also sustained) criticisms.
Just imagine if they had reverted their changes (at least in the form of a Classic line) right after the *30 series backlash!
Us loyal Thinkpadders wouldn't be so sour, and we would have appreciated their reactivity (though we would remind them that next time they plan a major change, they should at least consult us before making a major design disruption).

Of course we are happy with their current idea of backtracking. I don't think anyone here is faulting them for it. This is an absolutely positive move - and I wish to thank you again for your efforts.

But we can't be fooled in believing that they actually care about us. If they did, they would have listened to us earlier. What they are doing now is (as I speculate) purely because they ran out of options. That's the reality of their relations with us.

pianowizard wrote: In terms of sales, Lenovo is doing just fine -- it is the #1 laptop seller worldwide. But what really matters is profit margin, and Lenovo isn't doing that great. I tried to find more recent figures but this is the best that I found, from Apr 2013: http://www.cheatsheet.com/popular/apple ... ?a=viewall

The most crucial plots are the last two, showing "operating margin per unit shipped" and "operating profit from PC sales Q4 2012". On a per-unit basis, Lenovo lagged slightly behind HP, and quite far behind both Asus and Dell. And of course, Apple beat everyone else by a huge margin.

Thank you for making your case with those figures.

Yes, Lenovo as a whole does okay. But the Thinkpads themselves (even counting the questionable "Thinkpads")? I don't think they're #1 in their respective niches.
There's only so much a company can do by shaving millimetres on their machines to look cool, or shaving production/operation costs to regain margins.

Cloning has its limits and all companies know that when you're struggling, a common solution is to reach the premium market where the margins are. Again: Apple.

A notable exception that I can think of is Asus, which probably earned some stacks of cash after it launched its low-cost netbooks in the early 2000's. Margins were thin but volume was here, because... they innovated. No clone games, they offered a concept that no other mainstream competitor did - and found customers.

full ack.
even the more pricey Asus ZenBooks I see more often out in the wild, than Thinkpads. I do hold Lenovo responsible for their poor management by not giving them any money. Same as most of my colleagues I have thrown several thousand Euros at Apple and also bought some very good SATA modded T43p's from RealBlackStuff and ajkula66!

To offer a really good Classic Thinkpad with a reliable OS will be Lenovos last chance.

I'm not really into the RGB THINKPAD logo as it always looked better in silver, I did however liked when they added the red dot onto the i in ThinkPad and even my last lenovo ThinkPad I had "SL500" had the lightup i witch was nice but not the glossy top lid. To be a real true classic retro I think it should show off the RGB IBM ThinkPad logo again. They done it before the ThinkPads went full lenovo in the end 2007 and replaced the IBM ThinkPad with ThinkPad T,R,X Series under ThinkPad.

Classic IBM ThinkPad badge: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/3303 ... 8865_b.jpg
T61 with ThinkPad T Series badge: http://www.coker.com.au/blogpics/2010/t ... 61-big.jpg
Todays Full Lenovo ThinkPad badge: http://cdn.laptopmag.com/images/uploads ... 20_g15.jpg

I'm sure lenovo can use the IBM logo again. The IBM logo is Used under licence on 2006-2007 ThinkPads.

And also I miss the color coded keys. the Purple Enter key is added but what about the grey top row keys found on the A30, R3-R5, T3-T4, X3-X4 models. http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-be-4b/c ... 4328/img_0

Even my IBM desktop has a ThinkPad keyboard: http://www.serverpartswarehouse.com/[censored] ... 2R0400.jpg

ThinkPad560X wrote:I'm not really into the RGB THINKPAD logo as it always looked better in silver,

I disagree. I've never liked the silver logo. The proposed RGB logo makes me happy when I look at it.

You've already got a black computer. A big silver logo just looks cold to my eye. The color logo looks warm and inviting.

My objections could be lessened if they shrunk the logo by 25% or so.

ThinkPad560X wrote: Even my IBM desktop has a ThinkPad keyboard: http://www.serverpartswarehouse.com/[censored] ... 2R0400.jpg

Oh, that's a nice looking keyboard Care to share the model number ?

I too like the silver logo better than the one that David showed. But the best one is the silver one with three thin rgb stripes under (suggested in the first "retro " thinkpad blog post comments) I guess the logo will be in one of the surveys , so we will just have to wait .

ThinkPad560X wrote:I'm sure lenovo can use the IBM logo again. The IBM logo is Used under licence on 2006-2007 ThinkPads.

Often, those agreements are time limited, and in this case, it was a 5 year agreement - so, after December 2009, they couldn't use the IBM logo (but they went away from it much sooner than they had to - presumably, they wanted to promote the Lenovo brand): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/techn ... enovo.html

IBM ThinkPad UltraNav USB NUM Keyboard Model Number SK-8835

These are expensive, I paid around $150 for mine and the ones with the NUM pad connected are hard to find.

Lenovo also made them around the time I guess and put the silver ThinkPad logo on them. http://img.article.pchome.net/00/33/86/ ... 835-01.jpg

I use to have the Lenovo USB trackpoint only "No touchpad" keyboard, it used the ThinkPad T420 keyboard. http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/1856 ... kpad-b.jpg

I have a IBM PS/2 version of a true ThinkPad keyboard layout but I like using this one more. IBM ThinkPad PS/2: http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1yfhUIXXX ... 5-with.jpg

One that I made
ThinkPad Logo: http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... .jpeg.html

I think the stripes going through it is a must and closes to get to the IBM logo.

Heres a compare of what I did of the T92 with IBM logo on it. http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... 2.png.html

Added one with the top row grey keys
http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... P.jpg.html

ThinkPad560X wrote:One that I made
ThinkPad Logo: http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... .jpeg.html

I think the stripes going through it is a must and closes to get to the IBM logo.

Heres a compare of what I did of the T92 with IBM logo on it. http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... 2.png.html

The problem with overlaying the RGB colors on the word "ThinkPad" has been that there is little logic to the color separation. That's why I lean more towards either bringing back the actual "IBM" or single RGB line segments below a silver "ThinkPad."

I would also not be opposed to this RGB "Thinkpad" rendition:

https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaem ... iginal.jpg

Dante of the Inferno wrote:

ThinkPad560X wrote:One that I made
ThinkPad Logo: http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... .jpeg.html

I think the stripes going through it is a must and closes to get to the IBM logo.

Heres a compare of what I did of the T92 with IBM logo on it. http://s262.photobucket.com/user/halfbr ... 2.png.html

The problem with overlaying the RGB colors on the word "ThinkPad" has been that there is little logic to the color separation. That's why I lean more towards either bringing back the actual "IBM" or single RGB line segments below a silver "ThinkPad."

I would also not be opposed to this RGB "Thinkpad" rendition:

https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaem ... iginal.jpg

That is similar to one I made. I like it.

You know, at the end of the day, as long as they put a proper keyboard on it, they can slap a neon pink Apple logo on it and

I'll buy it.

I cannot find a single laptop with a proper keyboard. It seems like Lenovo was the last holdout.

If that's true, the age of the laptop is over. If I have to carry around an UltraNav with me so I can type, what's the point? I might as well plug it into a tablet, since the keyboard on a modern laptop is just so much dead weight.

i was told that there had been nearly 2000 people whom participated in the survey 2 so far.

lead_org wrote:i was told that there had been nearly 2000 people whom participated in the survey 2 so far.

That number needs to go up - severely so - before the part 3 gets to be announced.

In my opinion, that is.