Thinkpads Forum

pianowizard wrote: I suspect lots of folks exaggerate how much they are willing to pay for this Classic Thinkpad. Unfortunately, Lenovo might actually believe them and expects this project to be lucrative. Lenovo will proceed with the production, and people will get excited, but most will back off once they learn that the price tag is $5,000. Lenovo will lose their shirts and vow to never attempt any "retro" experiment again.

A 5000$ price tag would indeed be extreme, and I don't think Lenovo would fall for that. But spending 1500~2000€ on a Thinkpad seems pretty normal and reasonable to me.

Granted, the machine would need to be what we'd expect from a real Thinkpad - i.e. excellent design, excellent quality and excellent maintainability.

pianowizard wrote:
I suspect lots of folks exaggerate how much they are willing to pay for this Classic Thinkpad.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Folks who have been dying to replace their W520 units haven't bought these for pennies to begin with. HP and Dell have been selling some not-all-that-inexpensive workstation-class machines and have done reasonably well with them from what I'm to understand. The ones who actually would spend serious money on a "classic" ThinkPad come from the workstation crowd. They might not buy a new system every year, but when they do the money is really not a major obstacle, since one is purchasing a tool.

Unfortunately, Lenovo might actually believe them and expects this project to be lucrative.

Given what lead_org has stated elsewhere, I'll presume that Lenovo will require a deposit before they even consider full-blown production.

but most will back off once they learn that the price tag is $5,000.

Well, if $5K ends up being a price tag for a re-vamped X301 - as gorgeous as it may be - that system will never see the light of the day.

and vow to never attempt any "retro" experiment again.

I'll follow up on this aspect of your observation in a day or two. Please stay tuned...

Since we're talking money, I'll just chime in.

The most I've ever paid for a laptop is almost $800 for my 600E. It was three years old at that time.

My T60 was acquired for around $260 (I think).

My Flex 2 was a gift from a company I contract for.

I would LIKE to be able to pay between $800 and $900 for a basic version of this retro ThinkPad. But I would pay up to $1500, which I think is a very reasonable price tag if I get what I really need for long term productivity.

Just my two cents.

Lenovo should not expect to get a huge profit from this, i am not going to pay more than i would normally pay for T-series laptops, .. maybe sliglty more.

After all, we are helping them with a critical part of the design phase for free

Lenovo have made bad design decisions, they were simply "mistakes" , as evident by many reviews on various forums, and their decrease popularity in threads like "Thinkpad Wxxx owners thread" ..etc.

Lenovo instead of making one of their big variety of models stay with old/business style, they converted everything to new untested design (T/W/L/Edge/Yoga/X).

Lenovo wouldn't have started this surveys if it didn't know that there is a reason, or a need for those design ideas.

Simply, build a quality reliable laptop with design ideas shared here, and it will sell, to individuals and enterprises too.

Lenovo is not going to produce the machine before it is sure that it will hit the sales number. We will know the pricing, once we know the specs list.

Lenovo will be taking a deposit first, and see if there are willing buyers for the machines. In the end whether this machine goes into production or not, will depend on number of machines that they can sell.

Is this for real, or is this simply more fanboy fantasy balogna?

If the RetroThinkpad ever happens, I would probably buy one no matter what it costs, but I don't think I represent the average user. That's why I have been so focused on moderating my expectations a bit. Yes, originally my ideal RetroThinkpad would look exactly like the 600X that's sitting next to me now, but I have long ago left that stance. Creating something that's either too specialized (expensive) or too unusual compared to other laptops on the market today, will simply not work, because too few people will buy it. Best case it will be a rare one-off, worst case it will never happen.

So my new ideal will be a modern laptop with a classic touch. With the focus on power, ports and usability, not thickness, because that was how Thinkpads once were. Then again; will that be enough Retro feeling to satisfy the enthusiasts among us? Can really a RetroThinkpad be made at all and satisfy all needs? Yes, I think so. Having just driven a 2015 Dodge Charger and watched the retro elements designed into that car, actually made me think about the RetroThinkpad. Car and laptop, two very different things you might say, but the concept will be the same.

One thing disappointed me, though. 16:10 was more popular than 3:2, according to Survey #2. I still hope 3:2 would be that one thing that gave the RetroThinkpad something special that would be inventive with a square (classic) touch.

Qing Dao wrote:Is this for real, or is this simply more fanboy fantasy balogna?

Define "real".

Is Lenovo involved? Obviously. What their end-game is remains to be seen.

Will we get to see the machine in question, whatever the final product stemming from Mr. Hill's original rendition ends up being? I doubt that anyone can say with certainty at this point.

lead_org wrote:Lenovo is not going to produce the machine before it is sure that it will hit the sales number. We will know the pricing, once we know the specs list.

Lenovo will be taking a deposit first, and see if there are willing buyers for the machines. In the end whether this machine goes into production or not, will depend on number of machines that they can sell.

What Lenovo should do is come up with two or three designs (based on the responses gathered from the surveys), complete with renderings, prospective specs and pricing, and organise a vote on what should be made first.

This would be especially needed in the light of the nascent screen format controversy, where few believe 16:10 to be that popular of a choice.

Norway Pad wrote:If the RetroThinkpad ever happens, I would probably buy one no matter what it costs, but I don't think I represent the average user.

With that type of an approach - which I seriously applaud - you most certainly don't.

That's why I have been so focused on moderating my expectations a bit. Yes, originally my ideal RetroThinkpad would look exactly like the 600X that's sitting next to me now, but I have long ago left that stance. Creating something that's either too specialized (expensive) or too unusual compared to other laptops on the market today, will simply not work, because too few people will buy it. Best case it will be a rare one-off, worst case it will never happen.

My take is that the worst that can happen is a machine that no one is *really* happy with.

So my new ideal will be a modern laptop with a classic touch. With the focus on power, ports and usability, not thickness, because that was how Thinkpads once were. Then again; will that be enough Retro feeling to satisfy the enthusiasts among us? Can really a RetroThinkpad be made at all and satisfy all needs? Yes, I think so.

It seems that you and I have completely reversed the positions regarding this project without even talking about it...

My initial take was "just give me back a 7-row keyboard and a decent screen and I'll buy it" but that one grew very old very fast. At this point I'm almost completely certain that I'll pass on the upcoming machine.

One thing disappointed me, though. 16:10 was more popular than 3:2, according to Survey #2. I still hope 3:2 would be that one thing that gave the RetroThinkpad something special that would be inventive with a square (classic) touch.

I have a *huge* problem with how the screen aspect ratio was addressed in the surveys. Let's leave it at that, for now.

Summilux wrote:

lead_org wrote:Lenovo is not going to produce the machine before it is sure that it will hit the sales number. We will know the pricing, once we know the specs list.

Lenovo will be taking a deposit first, and see if there are willing buyers for the machines. In the end whether this machine goes into production or not, will depend on number of machines that they can sell.

What Lenovo should do is come up with two or three designs (based on the responses gathered from the surveys), complete with renderings, prospective specs and pricing, and organise a vote on what should be made first.

This would be especially needed in the light of the nascent screen format controversy, where few believe 16:10 to be that popular of a choice.

i think that would be the best approach. 2 or 3 designs with the expected pricing for each.

re: $5000 for a "Retro Thinkpad" and "deposit":

The overwhelming response to the Lenovo blog entry about Classic Thinkpads proves that there are actually enough customers waiting for a something like a 4:3 T43p or T60 with modernized components.

Besides the marketing value only this non-committal blog post has generated already! This is free advertisement for Lenovo in the range of millions of dollars.

On the other hand, a price of $5000 would be a slap in the face of those customers.

Personally I am very much prepared to spend a lump of money on several real Classic Thinkpads, if no compromises made!

But with a prepaid deposit I will be very careful: after all those crimes committed towards the Classic Thinkpad concept and all the lies (e.g. about high DPI IPS LCS not available ... cf. Apple's Retina),
I will check and test thoroughly, first purchase only one, and if it should prove OK over some time, I would buy a second and a third. Remember bendy keyboards, whining fans, heating and throttling issues, troubles with repair service and spare parts under extended warranty , .... (my MacBookPro runs absolutely incident free since late 2009!)

Lenovo will have to prove, that it actually is able deliver reliable quality in a Classic Thinkpad, before they will receive a bigger amount of money from me.

lophiomys wrote:Lenovo will have to prove, that it actually is able deliver reliable quality in a Classic Thinkpad, before they will receive a bigger amount of money from me.

Personally, I can't even justify putting a deposit given the quality control issues in the past few years, I can only start committing to buying after reading some reviews from fellow members here, and few other places.

if it is 'good' , then it may deserve a price premium like apple.

ajkula66 wrote:My take is that the worst that can happen is a machine that no one is *really* happy with.

That's an option I should have counted in too. I'm mostly focused on getting rid of the 16:9 panel and the 6-row keyboard. But what they put inside it has some significance too. I would honestly not be happy with a slim chassis that couldn't accommodate the faster and better processors available at the time of launch. Despite all my enthusiasm, that would only make me 90% satisfied. And if I wasn't as enthusiastic as I am, I probably wouldn't be happy with the RetroThinkpad at all. I have to remember I'm not representative of the average user.

ajkula66 wrote:My initial take was "just give me back a 7-row keyboard and a decent screen and I'll buy it" but that one grew very old very fast. At this point I'm almost completely certain that I'll pass on the upcoming machine.

Judging from that, I think our views might not be that different after all. But, we'll see. If we go by what I originally envisioned; a powerful classic looking 4:3 machine, it might seem as neither of us will get what we really wanted. An interesting subject, I should have taken you up on the offer to pick that T61p up in person. Discussing this over a cup of coffee in person would have been interesting.

My answers in all three surveys:

Survey 1

Why do you want a RetroThinkpad?
If Lenovo releases a Retro ThinkPad, it will be the clear number one laptop for me to buy, due to how important the input devices and the screen are to me. The attractiveness of a traditional ThinkPad is in this regard represented by the dedicated touchpad buttons and the trackpoint, a 7-row non-chiclet keyboard, and a matte screen, which is 4:3 or 16:10 (or 3:2). I also think a Retro ThinkPad should have traditionally-sized Esq and Delete keys

If I can add one further wish, which might not be a retro element but still a possible improvement (at least a preference of mine), it will be - compared to T60, which I know best - a less stiff touchpad (more like that of the current HP EliteBooks) and also a less stiff keyboard (more like ThinkPad T400), which has large arrow keys. I have used the Dell D820, which was more pleasant to use regarding the stiffness of the input devices and largeness of the arrow keys, but the quality of most other aspects of the input devices are better in the T60 (stable typing feel, keyboard layout (forward- and backward buttons), loudness of the touchpad buttons, durable volume buttons).

Of the following, which is your favorite ThinkPad?
T60 [from what I know now, I would have answered A31p or T43 because of supposedly better keyboard, but I haven't tried these]

7-row keyboard. Very strong preference

Non-island style, classic key shape. Very strong preference

X300 (greater travel, thicker systems). Very strong preference

Keyboard illumination
Both. Mild preference [changed my mind when I learned this would increase probability for chiclet keyboard]

Input Devices (TrackPoint and touchpad)
TrackPoint buttons + touchpad buttons. Very strong preference
[Note: The touchpad should have a feeling typical for "white" touchpads such as that of Latitude D820. Given a typical black TP touchpad, I would prefer a trackpoint only TP.]

Survey 2

Of the following, which is your favorite ThinkPad?
T60

Keyboard lighting was a hot topic from Survey #1. Let's get more specific....Among the following two options, which do you prefer as the method for illuminating your keyboard?
ThinkLight located at the top of the display. Strong preference [would have chosen "Very strong" today because avoiding chiclet keys is absolutely essential]

Internet Forward & Back Keys
I prefer a 7-row keyboard with Internet Forward & Back keys. Very strong preference

Which color treatment do you prefer for the ENTER key?
Blue. Mild preference

Volume, Microphone & Speaker buttons
Dedicated buttons. Very strong preference

Ideal display size
Other, please describe
15.0''. Very strong preference

Display Resolution
Other
1600x1200 or a higher 4:3 resolution where lower resolutions are optional. Very strong preference

Type of Display
Non-touchscreen with an anti-glare (matte) finish. Very strong preference

Display Aspect Ratio
4:3 (no longer manufactured)
Very strong preference

LED Status Lights
Want:
Caps lock LED
Number lock LED
Other, please specify...
Scroll lock. Note: I want it to be possible to deactivate the use of single LED lights.

Do not want:
3G/4G WAN LED
AC (charging) status LED [want provided deactivation possible]
Battery status LED
BlueTooth status LED
Function lock LED [function lock should not exist in a ThinkPad]
Microphone mute LED
Power button LED
Sleep/standby LED [want provided deactivation possible]
Speaker mute LED
Storage read/write status LED
ThinkPad Logo LED (power/suspend)
Wifi status LED

Survey 3
Processors
Quad-core i5 or i7, 47W processor (highest performance, thicker and heavier system). Very strong preference
[Note: I don't want this if I cannot get a cool and silent system akin to that of a dual core one whenever I want.]

RAM (memory)
2 replaceable DIMMs, up to 32 GB (thicker system). Very strong preference

Internal Storage
Solid State (SSD), allowing thinner systems & faster read/write, but more expensive & less storage than HDD. Very strong preference

Graphics Card
Intel Iris Pro graphics
Very strong preference

Hinge Design
I prefer a non-drop down hinge (system appears larger but allows ports and extended battery to be located on the back)
Very strong preference

Extended Battery Design
Extended battery option protrudes out of the back (no drop-down hinge)
Very strong preference

Ports & I/O
Not: Mini HDMI and Mini Display Port, and Side-docking
4 USB 3.0
Other: Headphone and microphone ports

Optical Disk Drive (ODD)
I prefer a built-in optical disk drive PLUS Ultrabay for 2nd battery (thickest)
Very strong preference

if it is 5000$, i wont buy it. I ll wait to buy second hand.

If it is not too heavy (1.6 kg max), then i can pay up to 1.5k+ euros. And pay a % upfront.

they shuld do a poll with that.
this spec machine:
will you buy?
will you want to pay upfront?
(may have several specs and ask the questions)

I'd only buy if they brought back the original Lenovo logo, the new one is just tacky looking and a little sketchy to the point of the logo looking like a rip-off brand.

As a ThinkPadder, I like the Lenovo logo in it's original form. It just doesn't cut it if you colour the ThinkPad logo. Keeping that white and colouring the Lenovo in IBM colours like this: Lenovo then I would be a happy chappy.

I took the survey a whirl and I do wish and want it to have a dedicated GPU of some sort along with the integrated Intel graphics for added mobility. And yes it will cause the laptop to be a bit thick but the point is, I feel that it should be a road warrior and a potential workstation laptop depending on the user's needs. As a student I'd not only do my college work with 3D graphics, why not gaming for a little bit?

bgx wrote:if it is 5000$, i wont buy it. I ll wait to buy second hand.

If it is not too heavy (1.6 kg max), then i can pay up to 1.5k+ euros. And pay a % upfront.

they shuld do a poll with that.
this spec machine:
will you buy?
will you want to pay upfront?
(may have several specs and ask the questions)

No customer wants the machine to be $5000 dollars.

lead_org wrote:Lenovo is not going to produce the machine before it is sure that it will hit the sales number. We will know the pricing, once we know the specs list.

Lenovo will be taking a deposit first, and see if there are willing buyers for the machines. In the end whether this machine goes into production or not, will depend on number of machines that they can sell.

So it's just milking the diehards before the Thinkpad brand is indistinguishable from a macbook?

This project is a community driven effort. This is why there are so many surveys to get feedbacks from the community.

lead_org wrote:This project is a community driven effort.

Na-ah..
Lenovo (personified by David Hill) "drives" this effort, WE are the community!

lead_org wrote: Lenovo will be taking a deposit first, and see if there are willing buyers for the machines. In the end whether this machine goes into production or not, will depend on number of machines that they can sell.

You must be joking. Lenovo is stuck in a rut making machines that are more-or-less the same as everyone else (except Apple) makes. If they want to make Apple-like profits, they are going to have to produce a distinctively different machine. A laptop with a tall beautiful screen and a keyboard with the quality of the IBM keyboards will certainly be distinctively different from the hundreds of other machines out there, and may very well be popular.

Lenovo is not doing us a favor with its endless talk and polling. We are doing Lenovo a favor by suggesting how it may break out of it's rut.

I never bought anything tech related on release, let alone on preorder or deposit. Always wait at least a month or two for reviews from real users.

I also don't trust the tech journalists to get this right. The journalistic reviewers don't use things long enough for reliability and other issues to surface. They're mostly just looking for something new and exciting to take to the coffee shop and write about. They also try new things so often that they're not subject to keyboard transition (muscle memory) issues.

RealBlackStuff wrote: Na-ah..
Lenovo (personified by David Hill) "drives" this effort, WE are the community!

Yep. And that's becoming more obvious - to anyone with their doors of perception open to any extent - more and more as this entire project moves along.

exTPfan wrote:
You must be joking. Lenovo is stuck in a rut making machines that are more-or-less the same as everyone else (except Apple) makes. If they want to make Apple-like profits, they are going to have to produce a distinctively different machine. A laptop with a tall beautiful screen and a keyboard with the quality of the IBM keyboards will certainly be distinctively different from the hundreds of other machines out there, and may very well be popular.

Lenovo is not doing us a favor with its endless talk and polling. We are doing Lenovo a favor by suggesting how it may break out of it's rut.

So much truth in just a few words...

Dekks wrote:
So it's just milking the diehards before the Thinkpad brand is indistinguishable from a macbook?

I'm glad that I'm not the only cynical - or sober - around here...

mydreamlaptop wrote:I never bought anything tech related on release, let alone on preorder or deposit. Always wait at least a month or two for reviews from real users.

I also don't trust the tech journalists to get this right. The journalistic reviewers don't use things long enough for reliability and other issues to surface. They're mostly just looking for something new and exciting to take to the coffee shop and write about. They also try new things so often that they're not subject to keyboard transition (muscle memory) issues.

Common sense must prevail...in all areas of life.

Wankel engine seemed like something that would turn the auto industry around fifty years ago until people found out that these were likely to blow at 30,000km...

Personally, I've been careless enough to become an unpaid beta tester of the flawed products - T61p and SF-based SSDs come to mind - and swore on a stack of my wife's cookbooks not to do it ever again. This upcoming system - presuming that it sees the light of the day in the first place as well as that it ends up being something that I could reasonably justify spending money on - will have to be tested and re-tested by others before I take a dive for it.

As sad as it may seem, Microsoft, Intel and Lenovo have all given us reasons to distrust them in recent years and to weigh our options carefully before accepting a "gift" of any kind from any of them...

My $0.02 only...

lead_org wrote:This project is a community driven effort. This is why there are so many surveys to get feedbacks from the community.

Not to pick on you personally but you perfectly know this is bollocks.

If there had ever been a community-driven effort endorsed by Lenovo, it'd have begun seven years ago; and only in some alternate reality would screen format as well as keyboard layout would have been controversies.

ajkula66 wrote:As sad as it may seem, Microsoft, Intel and Lenovo have all given us reasons to distrust them in recent years and to weigh our options carefully before accepting a "gift" of any kind from any of them...

While Lenovo should shoulder a lot of blame, the unseen hand of Intel has a lot to do with the demise of the classic Thinkpad. This is due to the ultrabook brand trying to ape the macbook, leading to soldered RAM and ultra thin chassis that have limited user servicability. Added to this is the fact that Intel has no competition with its core processors dominating so it hasn't bothered releasing anything but ULV chips prior to Skylake as Intel tries to force it's way into the ARM market.

Summilux wrote:

lead_org wrote:This project is a community driven effort. This is why there are so many surveys to get feedbacks from the community.

Not to pick on you personally but you perfectly know this is bollocks.

If there had ever been a community-driven effort endorsed by Lenovo, it'd have begun seven years ago; and only in some alternate reality would screen format as well as keyboard layout would have been controversies.

7 years ago i wasn't at CES chatting to David Hill, and i didn't have that many ThinkPads to have this sort of deep appreciation.

Nigellus wrote:Since we're talking money, I'll just chime in.

The most I've ever paid for a laptop is almost $800 for my 600E. It was three years old at that time.

My T60 was acquired for around $260 (I think).

My Flex 2 was a gift from a company I contract for.

I would LIKE to be able to pay between $800 and $900 for a basic version of this retro ThinkPad. But I would pay up to $1500, which I think is a very reasonable price tag if I get what I really need for long term productivity.

Just my two cents.

I paid $550 for a 3-year-old off-lease A22m in November of 2004. The only ThinkPad I ever bought new - I paid $2523 for my T61p new from Lenovo in October of 2007; I decided to factory upgrade components like RAM, CPU, screen, which drove the cost up a good margin. Every other ThinkPad I've bought I've paid less than $200 for, the most recent being my T420 which I bought the first of this year.

I think $1500 is a reasonable benchmark base price I'd be willing to pay for a "retro" Thinkpad should it ever come to fruition - AND meet my needs. There are a good number of things I take for granted with any ThinkPad (that I'd consider owning) - and if those end up being missing or unavailable options on this model (again, should it ever be produced), then that just means it won't be a system I'll purchase new.

The fact is Lenovo simply can't make everyone happy with just one model. The question then becomes whether they take the risks and eat the costs associated with engineering and marketing two models (an X series and a T series) right from the start, or do they try and compromise and risk a tepid reaction from the diehard X and T fans?

The X61T was around 1600 USD when bought by the school that I work at. The earlier second hand T30 was close to 1000 USD when bought, and the T60 was somewhat cheaper, both extremely trustworthy workhorses. To put it in context, here, in this part of the world, after some years of progress, folks make an average 5250 USD per year (!). But the thinkpads have their users.

Still, should the push to come to the proverbial shove, spending 2000 USD or above would not be a surprise as it's a working tool. As a car... you don't change it very often, you want to have reliability, a future proof instrument, upgrades down the road - resilience in the face of daily (ab)use - these all are core to the key concept. It has a price, as I cannot afford to migrate from one machine to another every often. Money matters less in this concept. It's something else. It's a whole package, and it's integrity is of the essence.

To illustrate - other "posh" brands in stores are nicely marketed, giving almost the oh-ah squeamish feel of the 2nd gen X1 capacitive keys top row (now thankfully abandoned) - but mounted on motorbike, chasing hurricanes, they'd shy away like a mimosa, or shiny manicure facing a muddy flat tire. They're not enduring, nor resilient in adversity, nor flexible enough. That is the something else, a manifest essence, that we are willing to pay for. The betrayal that we felt was precisely of those essential values, for a rather similar investment. So it's normal to feel tricked and deceived when the package is no longer complete. And, even if the world is changing, people stand by their values - manifest here in the classic TP.

I look forward to it as the cycle of renewal comes, I hope I catch the Retro.

Dekks wrote:

ajkula66 wrote:As sad as it may seem, Microsoft, Intel and Lenovo have all given us reasons to distrust them in recent years and to weigh our options carefully before accepting a "gift" of any kind from any of them...

While Lenovo should shoulder a lot of blame, the unseen hand of Intel has a lot to do with the demise of the classic Thinkpad. This is due to the ultrabook brand trying to ape the macbook, leading to soldered RAM and ultra thin chassis that have limited user servicability. Added to this is the fact that Intel has no competition with its core processors dominating so it hasn't bothered releasing anything but ULV chips prior to Skylake as Intel tries to force it's way into the ARM market.

So what has Intel do to with the ditching of the 7th row and the eSata port? Or the clickpad-failure? Or implementing a "too short!" M.2 slot? Or even the 16:9 curse?