Thinkpads Forum

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:

Dekks wrote:
While Lenovo should shoulder a lot of blame, the unseen hand of Intel has a lot to do with the demise of the classic Thinkpad. This is due to the ultrabook brand trying to ape the macbook, leading to soldered RAM and ultra thin chassis that have limited user servicability. Added to this is the fact that Intel has no competition with its core processors dominating so it hasn't bothered releasing anything but ULV chips prior to Skylake as Intel tries to force it's way into the ARM market.

So what has Intel do to with the ditching of the 7th row and the eSata port? Or the clickpad-failure? Or implementing a "too short!" M.2 slot? Or even the 16:9 curse?

First part of the first line......

So all that's left is a bigger time-window between releases of full power cpu's and no ultra-book marketing funds...

Survey 4 is very interesting, just had a preview of it. It is also the last survey, so remember it opens at 7 am Friday EST.

Nothing about screen dimensions.
Everything else was interesting and really easy to decide on.

Survey 4 is not a deal breaker or maker. I think survey 2 and 3 were more important in term of the what to expect.

What we can conclude is that nothing is set:
could go either:
-14" T4xx p , big and powerful machine, or
-14" version of X301, ligther and not as powerful.

David could have asked about it, proposing this 2 solutions and seeing what we have to say about it. He didnt do it. I guess that he prefer to keep the choice for himself/his team instead of being forced to follow what the crowd ask. And it is probably for the better - i trust him, even though i may not like the choice he makes, at least it will make sense to some insteda of disapointing everybody.

Anyway, looking at the questions and the partial answers we were told, I think the main message has been heard - hope it will be put into application:
-better keyboard/trackpoint
-taller screens (16:10 is still better than 16:9)
-more ports (SD card, usb C, full size digital video output, etc)
-more servicability (replaceable memory, battery...). (Iam less sure of that, but the survey really ask about it, and i believe that thinkpadders will vote for that).

Now, we have to wait and see!

lead_org, any idea when this project can be concretized?
Thanks for your involvement in the project too

bgx wrote:Survey 4 is not a deal breaker or maker. I think survey 2 and 3 were more important in term of the what to expect.

What we can conclude is that nothing is set:
could go either:
-14" T4xx p , big and powerful machine, or
-14" version of X301, ligther and not as powerful.

David could have asked about it, proposing this 2 solutions and seeing what we have to say about it. He didnt do it. I guess that he prefer to keep the choice for himself/his team instead of being forced to follow what the crowd ask. And it is probably for the better - i trust him, even though i may not like the choice he makes, at least it will make sense to some insteda of disapointing everybody.

Anyway, looking at the questions and the partial answers we were told, I think the main message has been heard - hope it will be put into application:
-better keyboard/trackpoint
-taller screens (16:10 is still better than 16:9)
-more ports (SD card, usb C, full size digital video output, etc)
-more servicability (replaceable memory, battery...). (Iam less sure of that, but the survey really ask about it, and i believe that thinkpadders will vote for that).

Now, we have to wait and see!

lead_org, any idea when this project can be concretized?
Thanks for your involvement in the project too

On reflection, a 14" T__p series would really be my ideal, but the indication from the latest blog post is that the UltraBay/optical drive is not favored. While it's true that both HP (zBook 14) and Dell (Precision M3800) have tried for the "ultrabook" approach to a mobile workstation, I'm not encouraged. A full-power(~45W or whatever the current mobile quadcore norm is) processor requires significant cooling/space, and it's hard to imagine a properly cooled 45W processor in a machine thin enough that an UltraBay/optical drive is in question. As discussed in another thread, the only properly cooled 14" quadcore workstation I've seen (for what it's worth) has been the since-discontinued HP EliteBook 8460w (Sandy Bridge), and its Ivy Bridge successor 8470w--which came in at 32mm thick*. By that point, if one doesn't have an optical drive bay, one has to wonder what else the requisite space is used for.

*(Note that neither the T440p nor even its bigger brother 15" model had adequate cooling to avoid throttling issues.)

As such, I have to conclude that we are probably looking at something akin to a 16:10 matte-display X1 Carbon with 7-row keyboard, or if we're lucky, a revamped X201, hopefully with higher-resolution/quality display (the latter likely allowing for greater serviceability and higher thermal envelope. The latter would still have interest to me. The former, not so much.

I think, after this overwhelming response to the first four surveys, no more confirmation is needed.
Lenovo will simply build several sizes of Classics Thinkpads with UltraBay and Dockingstation and tall LCD screen
in order to get back on the road of success and attract as much customers as possible.

We will see a 15inch T50, 14inch T44, 13inch X303 and a 12inch X42.
All in 4:3 with matte Retina screen, classic 7-row keyboard and all the features we use to appreciate in the past.

lophiomys wrote:I think, after this overwhelming response to the first four surveys, no more confirmation is needed.
Lenovo will simply build several sizes of Classics Thinkpads with UltraBay and Dockingstation and tall LCD screen
in order to get back on the road of success and attract as much customers as possible.

We will see a 15inch T50, 14inch T44, 13inch X303 and a 12inch X42.
All in 4:3 with matte Retina screen, classic 7-row keyboard and all the features we use to appreciate in the past.

I don't know where this is coming from - the changes of them building more than one machine is unlikely. If they did what you describe, that would be great, but I would not get my hopes up.

Bibin wrote:

lophiomys wrote:I think, after this overwhelming response to the first four surveys, no more confirmation is needed.
Lenovo will simply build several sizes of Classics Thinkpads with UltraBay and Dockingstation and tall LCD screen
in order to get back on the road of success and attract as much customers as possible.

We will see a 15inch T50, 14inch T44, 13inch X303 and a 12inch X42.
All in 4:3 with matte Retina screen, classic 7-row keyboard and all the features we use to appreciate in the past.

I don't know where this is coming from - the changes of them building more than one machine is unlikely. If they did what you describe, that would be great, but I would not get my hopes up.

Where it's coming from? Well, let's visit Wikipedia, shall we?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Since I am a programmer, I am trying it with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-lin ... rogramming
(Beggars can't be choosers)
to overcome some learning disorders of the Lenovo management.
Therefore they wont have any chance to do anything else, but the right thing.

I don't think Lenovo will build two machines, unless there are significant commitment from the customers to make this happen. When i say significant, i say either people are willing to pay a lot more or lot of people is going to buy each model. Most likely David will present several design choices with the likely cost associated with each design decision and how many Lenovo will need to sell to get the model produced.

Originally, when i proposed the project to David at CES, i told him either T4x/T6x or X30x remake, and this was how the original plan was suppose to be. But there could be many changes that has occurred to the plan over last 8 weeks or so due to the significance of this project.

We will soon know what David has planned for us next week in terms of design.

P.S. If we want to get a chance to have the butterfly keyboard Retro ThinkPad to ever get a chance to come back again, we really need to get the ThinkPad Retro 1.0 project off the ground.

imho lenovo has wasted its chace to lead the "pay a lot more"-card.

not being offered the product i want for the last 10 years and remembering all the troubles with warranty service, I have NO pitty whatsoever with a multi billion business like Lenovo.

I had hoped they would give an option to vote for an optional GPU in Ultrabay, but they only mentioned drives/battery. That's disappointing. A Thinkpad with integrated GPU and an optional dedicated GPU in Ultrabay would really be something I would get excited about.

kony wrote:I had hoped they would give an option to vote for an optional GPU in Ultrabay, but they only mentioned drives/battery. That's disappointing. A Thinkpad with integrated GPU and an optional dedicated GPU in Ultrabay would really be something I would get excited about.

An interesting thought--presumably via MXM or some sort of PCI-Express implementation? But I'm afraid Lenovo's history on scaling back ports/features belies any hope as such. Remember, the Ultrabay used to offer battery expansion, but that first got relegated to only the -s series (T420/520 didn't have it, 420s did), and by the T440p there was no such offering at all. Also notice the disappearance of E-Sata, ExpressCard, etc. Expandability, ports, slots, socketed/modular components, etc. are all disappearing very quickly.

Outside of Dell and HP's mobile workstation products, there is almost nothing left on the market today that even approaches the flexibility and expandability of the better Thinkpads. Sad but true.

I miss the PCMCIA, it was the laptops version of desktop PCI slots. Imagine what tech it could have today, USB 3.1 and type C, just plug it into your laptop and you got 3.1 or C on a ThinkPad that didn't come with one. New 4G LTE better connections with card. Better WiFi. I still would of loved PCMCIA boot for Windows, I tried it on my old ThinkPads but didn't work, imagine fast swapping of a OS. I think the ThinkPad T61/R61/X61 was the last to feature 1 PCMCIA slot while older ThinkPads had 2 slots.

I think the ThinkPad T61/R61/X61 was the last to feature 1 PCMCIA slot while older ThinkPads had 2 slots.

I don't know why you miss PCMCIA, not ExpressCard - 2nd one is newer and better (since it's PCI Express). No one produces PCMCIA cards for years...
T400 & T500 has possibility to have PCMCIA+ExpessCard, W700 & W701 had option with two EC (54 & 34mm), T510 and T410 had single EC slot.

I miss EC as I'm using HDV camcorder with FireWire connection and right now I'm using EC FireWire controller with x220/T430.

ThinkPad560X wrote:Imagine what tech it could have today, USB 3.1 and type C, just plug it into your laptop and you got 3.1 or C on a ThinkPad that didn't come with one. New 4G LTE better connections with card. Better WiFi.

Haha. 10Gbps USB3.1 over the dreadful, roughly 1000-time slower 16-bit PCMCIA bus. Good one. Even Cardbus (32-bit PCI) is pathetically outdated for anything useful in modern computing.

David Hill already published this in 2012, WHY the F did he (and Lenovo) not stick to it?
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/690 ... 69081166/1

lead_org wrote:Survey 4 is very interesting, just had a preview of it. It is also the last survey, so remember it opens at 7 am Friday EST.

What is so interesting about that survey?

RealBlackStuff wrote:David Hill already published this in 2012, WHY the F did he (and Lenovo) not stick to it?
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/690 ... 69081166/1

I think (and this is just a guess) he probably knew it all along. But final decisions come from higher up.

Maybe 6-row and all the rest of it is just what Mr. Hill thinks of as an evolutionary design that continues to make ThinkPads better and faithful to their DNA. The article came out in 2012 and 6-row is in it. Designing ThinkPads is his job and there are tons of examples of artists losing their way along the way. Just think of George Lucas and the Star Wars prequels, Progressive Rock bands like ELP, YES or Genesis who at one point ran out of ideas to do their unique kind of music and just sold out and went mainstream.

It's a bit like Louis XVI. of France: the court is still in Versailles, but the good old times of Louis XIV. are gone for good never to return again.

It's also worth noting that there have been 6-row ThinkPads since the start. The 300 and 500 are both 6-row.

Yeah and later the same 7-row layout save some minor changes like the internet backwards/forwards keys or the A30 browser, etc keys was ubiquotous. It's interesting that for a time both layouts ran concurrently and 7-row won until 6-row came back with a vengeance. I don't even think David Hill would have gotten away with the big Esc/Del keys ten years previously under IBM. IBM was too conservative in a "don't fix it if it isn't broken" kind of way to change the keyboard too much.

In 2012 the X1 Carbon was already out and the T540,T440,etc. were most likely already in their design phase if not already designed. That's to say design features like the clamshell (and display hinges) and ThinkLight were already on their way out. For David Hill the ThinkPad DNA apparantly essentially boils down to black, rectangular, red TrackPoint (Clickpad was apparantly fine with him), logo at 37° and written in a particular style since pretty much forever (save the red i-dot) and concave keyboard keys. The rest is basically just the typical we and our products are the best and the greatest marketing speech.
He's fine with the present ThinkPads being what and how they are. He designed them after all. For him they are the best ThinkPads yet until he'll design some even newer ones then those will be the best ever. It's his job, just as YES will always tell you that their newest album is as good as their best ones like CLose to the Edge even when the band members all know that it is far from that. I'm sure David Hill is a nice guy just as YES are nice guys. There most certainly are some pressures on him to cut costs or move the design a certain way to attract more costumers which may in the eyes of some have a detrimental effect on the end product. YES albums like Union and Heaven and Earth or ELP's In the hot seat are good examples of cases were the pressures of the record companies led to albums not worth listening to. But neither of those poeple were "stabed in the back". King Crimson avoided such a fate. Certain brands did as well.

The Retro ThinkPad project is just what the name implies: retro for the sake of being retro in order to make money. That does not mean the creators are not behind it. YES also did retro albums like Keys to Ascension partly for the money partly for nostalgia. Sad to say those albums didn't live up to what they did in the past. Let's hope the Retro ThinkPad fares better but I'm not holding my breath. Great ThinkPads like the 600 with its legendary keyboard, the Butterfly worthy of being in the MoMA, the A31p with its excellent Flexview display, soundcard, speakers and keyboard are like Close to the Edge: moments were just everything fits together perfectly and even the faults don't matter much. But those moments are moments of grace, moments to be cherrisched and moments very hard to repeat under the best of circumstances. David Hill and Lenovo may create a new classic with the Retro ThinkPad and I hope they will, but it has to be excellent across the board: display, sound, keyboard, look and feel of the mashine in order to live up to their own legacy otherwise it will be like In the hot seat: the proof that the legend is dead for good.

May I offer a very simplified opinion? If Lenovo brings out a below 2kg ThinkPad with a classic keyboard I will buy it. End.

i do contemplate whether the thinkpad future for my personal needs resides with a Retro-pad or a holiday in Shenzhen

chx1975 wrote:May I offer a very simplified opinion? If Lenovo brings out a below 2kg ThinkPad with a classic keyboard I will buy it. End.

Personally speaking, i think a remake of the X301 with better IPS screen would be the choice for this first Retro ThinkPad.

Spoke to David briefly about the current status on the ThinkPad Retro, he said all the data has been closely looked at by the ThinkPad business unit. There will also be a new blog coming this week that should summarizes the collected data from the survey(s), and explain what Lenovo will be doing next for the retro project.

Hi!

From my point of view.....if there will be no ultrabay and even no classic keyboard....such a "retro" or once again better "new classic" i wouldn't buy, nevertheless which features it also will bring...

i don't even understand why the most people want a quad core in every machine, if the premium "new classic" would have such an CPU, fine, but not every "new classic" need to have such an CPU,...

and how thin should it use to be......if it will be like a T410s oder T420s...this would be great....why the h-ll going thinner than this?!

I'm interested what it really will be....but i will not buy such a machine for the fact that it will be a try to get something of an glamour back,....that has been thrown away like an toy no one would like to play with....it will have to be what a "new classic" would like to be for me....or very similiar to this...or i will stay on the machines i have, T23 (LED), T410s and T420s (FHD)...and hope to find something like this again (with more usable ports and better displays...T23 and T410s)....in future..

Kindly,

PANdoRa

PandorasThinkpad wrote:i don't even understand why the most people want a quad core in every machine, if the premium "new classic" would have such an CPU, fine, but not every "new classic" need to have such an CPU,...

Because it is either dual core ultra low voltage, or full power quad core.

those new dual core are as fast as the full power dual core from 4 years ago.

Lenovo recent models that have the new dual core with ultra low voltage suffer from thermal throttling, with cooling systems that are inadequate for full turbo boost.

Plus, quad core are more future proof, and would help if you run anything that is marginally CPU/GPU dependent.

It's really all about the keyboard. The only thing that all classic Thinkpads (barring a few rather old and rather uncommon models) had and all modern Thinkpads lack is the traditional 7-row keyboard.

I am sure that it is also the only thing about which there was overwhelming consensus among everyone who took these surveys. Even about the screen ratio there is some disagreement.

Serviceability/modularity has also been harmed somewhat, on average, although there are some trade-offs.

Everything else, with no exception, is a matter of discussion/preference. Someone wants a 17" workstation, someone else wants a 12" travel companion. Someone wants powerful GPU/CPU, someone else wants an extra-long battery life. Ultrabay (yes/no?), docking connector (yes/no?), this port or that port, such and such number of RAM slots - they weren't really ubiquitous on past Thinkpads either, and many current Thinkpads still have them.

Thus, if the classic keyboard or at least the layout is not back, there is no point to this project. Zero. As far as everything else - since there is and there never will be a consensus, there are two options:

1) produce a lineup, just like there used to be, where everyone will find what they want - not going to happen
2) produce the model with the features that have been deemed the most popular in the surveys - many are bound to end up disappointed, but the model may still sell well enough to justify producing more variants down the road