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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#61 Post by BillMorrow » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:01 am

i can see, from scanning posts, that a LOT of juggling will be happening in the engineering and procurement departments.. :)
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#62 Post by ZaZ » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:33 am

Hats off to Lenovo for thinking outside the box, but until there's an actual product to buy that I have to decide whether I want to spend the money, there's not much sense in getting over enthused about it. Now, if they'd come out with a sub four pounds 14" IPS SXGA+ ThinkPad with a SSD + HDD, that would be worth celebrating. I personally don't see an updated X300 being all that different from what's available now, other than 100 pixels and the keyboard, which I don't care much about since I like the new and the old ones.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#63 Post by Tasurinchi » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:48 am

I'm very surprised about the big amount of comments on such a short time. And now the press is starting to catch up. This may have a bigger impact than anticipated and I'm looking forward to seeing the reaction of some competitors.

I quickly browsed through many of the comments, and it seems to me that (on a bigger scale) most people are asking for the same. I was expecting almost no common ground :oops:
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#64 Post by thinkpadcollection » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:00 am

Everything of your comments are spot on, even I do prefer the hinge rotate in the lid, not the hinge housing on the base.

Just smidge thicker so I can afford better cooling using all copper heatsink, GPU included (mirror after the Sony vaio; is a switch that only change long run battery mode or full-on performance and require a reboot to switch modes every time this switch is moved.) swappable CPU.

M.2 SSD, 2.5" 9mm or 7mm SATA HD. No optical (extremely tired of optical stuff), offer a usb 3.0 burner.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#65 Post by lead_org » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:04 am

ZaZ wrote:Hats off to Lenovo for thinking outside the box, but until there's an actual product to buy that I have to decide whether I want to spend the money, there's not much sense in getting over enthused about it. Now, if they'd come out with a sub four pounds 14" IPS SXGA+ ThinkPad with a SSD + HDD, that would be worth celebrating. I personally don't see an updated X300 being all that different from what's available now, other than 100 pixels and the keyboard, which I don't care much about since I like the new and the old ones.
4:3 would not make a come back anytime soon. The panel is just too expensive to procure. But the display on the Macbook Retina 13 could make it into this machine.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#66 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:36 am

ZaZ wrote:Hats off to Lenovo for thinking outside the box, but until there's an actual product to buy that I have to decide whether I want to spend the money, there's not much sense in getting over enthused about it.
+ 1 and then some...
lead_org wrote:
4:3 would not make a come back anytime soon. The panel is just too expensive to procure.
I don't know where you're getting this from. Both 4:3 and 16:10 are effectively obsolete, so one shouldn't command much of a premium over the other.
But the display on the Macbook Retina 13 could make it into this machine.
A "retro" ThinkPad with a glossy LCD? I think not and am dead certain that most would agree...
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#67 Post by Ibthink » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:58 am

A "retro" ThinkPad with a glossy LCD? I think not and am dead certain that most would agree...
The LCD used in the Macbook Pr models are actually all matte. They are only glossy because Apple is stupid enough to cover them up with glossy glass.
I don't know where you're getting this from. Both 4:3 and 16:10 are effectively obsolete, so one shouldn't command much of a premium over the other.
16:10 is available through Macbook displays.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#68 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:20 am

Ibthink wrote: 16:10 is available through Macbook displays.
And both 4:3 and 16:10 are available from Panasonic. Your point being?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#69 Post by Ibthink » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:31 am

And both 4:3 and 16:10 are available from Panasonic. Your point being?
Oh, wow. Let me guess: These must be true state-of-the-art panels, with high resolution and IPS... :roll: Let me rather ask you: Whats your point refering to these panels, especially the 4:3 ones? Just because they exist? They are unsuited for ThinkPads.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#70 Post by ZaZ » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:36 am

lead_org wrote:4:3 would not make a come back anytime soon. The panel is just too expensive to procure.
Like I said for me an updated X300 is nice, but not intoxicating, especially if it's priced like the old one. In that case, I'd take the T450s. If Lenovo wants to deliver a unique product they're going to have to find a way.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#71 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:47 am

lead_org wrote:HOPE from 51nb.com helped me quite a bit in this blog launch. The Chinese Thinkpadders disliked the hinge style of this ThinkPad, everything else is okay. What are your thoughts?
1. I am not sure wheter there are (good) options of 16:10 matte IPS/PLS/AHVA screens so 3:2 is likely a better choice. As for MacBook retina displays, they have annoying image persistence issues similar to X2.0 displays. Better not to use notebook LG.Display panels anymore unless properly designed.

2. bring back browser back/forward keys including BIOS keyboard scan codes generated for Fn key combination. People who prefer navigation keys Home/End/PgUp/PgDn closer to the cursor keys would have an option to map them (by SharpKeys etc) on these browser keys together with Fn key combination (ie PgUp = Back, PgDn = Forward, Home = Fn+Back, End = Fn+Forward).

3. keep the bigger Esc key, do not move F1 key to the corner (and Esc above it) as the classic IBM layout had.

4. design good cooling system, not like X220 high pitched fan noise. Do not try to make it way too slim.

5. hinges are acceptable :)

6. pure black color of case please

7. for localized keyboard layouts (ie Czech) please do not use the short left Shift key, the "\" cloned key between left Shift and Z keys is useless anyway.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#72 Post by Dekks » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:12 am

lead_org wrote:HOPE from 51nb.com helped me quite a bit in this blog launch. The Chinese Thinkpadders disliked the hinge style of this ThinkPad, everything else is okay. What are your thoughts?
Looks ok in principle, i would forgo a few mm thickness if it removes the possibility of soldered RAM. I Also note no comments on the likes of how easy it would be to change things around like you can with the TPs of yore.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#73 Post by lead_org » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:17 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Ibthink wrote: 16:10 is available through Macbook displays.
And both 4:3 and 16:10 are available from Panasonic. Your point being?
George, i don't want to start an argument, because i really respect you. Obviously, Lenovo can get exotic panels made, but that would push the price up into area that not lot of people going to afford. Obviously if you are in an argumentative mood, then nothing people do or say will please you.

To get this blog published was already a huge step for Lenovo. This represents huge change of direction for Lenovo product design, a change like this requires lot of risk taking and support from higher managements.

I am glad that David Hill's blog got the attention it deserves, this is really something for the ThinkPad fans.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#74 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:48 am

lead_org wrote:Obviously, Lenovo can get exotic panels made, but that would push the price up into area that not lot of people going to afford.
There are no notebook 16:10 panels on the market except these LG.Display made for Apple (having issues). So an "exotic" panel is required in any case unless move to 3:2 format. And we alraedy now that 15000 units is enough to make it :D
Last edited by Puppy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#75 Post by crashnburn » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:49 am

I was gonna post this with a nice big title.. but too late :( ha ha.. concise thread title.

http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... me-machine
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#76 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:52 am

lead_org wrote:To get this blog published was already a huge step for Lenovo.
This costs them nothing!
lead_org wrote:This represents huge change of direction for Lenovo product design
They haven't done ANYthing yet...
lead_org wrote:a change like this requires lot of risk taking and support from higher managements.
Wishful thinking!
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#77 Post by Pokrzept » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:46 am

lead_org wrote: George, i don't want to start an argument, because i really respect you. Obviously, Lenovo can get exotic panels made, but that would push the price up into area that not lot of people going to afford. Obviously if you are in an argumentative mood, then nothing people do or say will please you.

To get this blog published was already a huge step for Lenovo. This represents huge change of direction for Lenovo product design, a change like this requires lot of risk taking and support from higher managements.

I am glad that David Hill's blog got the attention it deserves, this is really something for the ThinkPad fans.
I'd like to be a part in this discussion since I can't really understand the pricetag argument here. Somehow other companies can afford to maintain and develop mobile workstations with a price variance between 2000 and 3000$ per unit and I really doubt that they'd keep doing so without proper profit. And none of those units are neighter light nor compact and do not incorporate ULV CPU and soldered RAM combo. Still even if they do not fit as global-consumer product there's alot of people ready to buy them as soon as they hit the market.

ATM Lenovo put a price of 1.600 $ for T450s with ULV i7, FHD unit. I'd really like to spend those 700 extra bucks I have spent on Dell M4800 to get a proper solid and performance efficient Thinkpad. Don't tell me that proper rugged chassis and 16:10 or 4:3 display would add more than that to the price I have mentioned.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#78 Post by exTPfan » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:50 am

Apple and Google make 4:3 tablets, Microsoft makes 3:2 tablets, and there are dozens of 16:10 tablets, but only Google makes a 3:2 laptop.

It's hard to believe that the economics of tablet screens and laptop screens are that much different.

If Lenovo is serious about this (big if), then they should produce a laptop with a tall screen, and not a warmed over X301.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#79 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:45 am

Ibthink wrote: Oh, wow. Let me guess: These must be true state-of-the-art panels, with high resolution and IPS... :roll: Let me rather ask you: Whats your point refering to these panels, especially the 4:3 ones? Just because they exist? They are unsuited for ThinkPads.
Actually, Panasonic does offer a 10" system which is 16:10 which sports an IPS screen, while being WUXGA. See here:

http://www.dynamism.com/top-notebooks/p ... ries.shtml

Secondly, how do we know which panels are suitable for ThinkPads? Half of them sport junk LCDs even nowadays, while the top tier units have gotten better screens. Not to mention that we haven't seen a 4:3 panel in seven years.

Thirdly, Panasonic obviously has both the technology (3K IPS screen currently sold on ThinkPads) and the tooling (their own CF-31) in place for producing a high-end 4:3 panel.

Hydis and LG were rolling out 4:3 screens not that long ago as well. I doubt that they've scrapped the equipment entirely.

So there *are* sources for 4:3 screens, and since the upcoming machine is not going to be an inexpensive one by any means let's not pretend the LCD cost and availability are an issue. They're not.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#80 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:17 am

lead_org wrote: George, i don't want to start an argument, because i really respect you. Obviously, Lenovo can get exotic panels made, but that would push the price up into area that not lot of people going to afford.
They're already the only ones - AFAIK - using the Panasonic 3K IPS panel. Custom order from what I can see. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

Let's not pull out the "price" straw man, pretty please. This is not going to be - if it ever sees the light of the day to begin with - a $500 system.
Obviously if you are in an argumentative mood, then nothing people do or say will please you.
No, I'm not in an argumentative mood, but you my good man were the one who was hinting the return of the 4:3 not all that long ago and are now back-pedalling:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... ad_google/
To get this blog published was already a huge step for Lenovo.
I don't see how. With all due respect to Mr. Hill, it's just a blog. And Lenovo has posted "unusual" stuff in their blogs before.
This represents huge change of direction for Lenovo product design, a change like this requires lot of risk taking and support from higher managements.
Not until we actually can click the button or pick up the phone and order this ThinkPad will I agree with you.

I am glad that David Hill's blog got the attention it deserves, this is really something for the ThinkPad fans.
Let's hope that Lenovo doesn't disappoint these fans this time around because if they do, they won't be given another chance.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#81 Post by bit_twiddler » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:29 am

Actually, the smart thing for Lenovo to do would be to get together with
HP and Dell to procure a supply or 16:10, 4:3, or 3:2 panels.

And, somebody should tell Lenovo that soldering RAM onto motherboards
is a bad idea that should stay in Cupertino.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#82 Post by Norway Pad » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:33 am

Norway Pad wrote:For the logo, it was very colorful. I would have toned it down by letting two or three letters share the same color: THINKPAD
Seems like someone else had this idea too, and made this drawing: https://twitter.com/BetoSanro/status/61 ... 04/photo/1

For the ongoing discussion about screen size, I would say that if I could have my choice, without considering any issues, I would have had it with a 4:3 IPS panel. No doubt. But a 16:10 IPS panel, or maybe a 3:2, are trade-offs I can live with if I get the rest of the package. 16:9 is however a big NO. I never learned to live with 16:9, while the other mentioned aspect ratios are good compromises that might also appeal to a wider audience than just us die hard fans. Which is important if the end product is going to be competitive, make profit and in best case turn into a permanent series of machines. Profit is after all what rules this game. No profit -> No RetroPad.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#83 Post by bit_twiddler » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:15 am

16:9 is however a big NO
100% agreement here. Unfortunately, Apple and a few specialty manufacturers are
the only ones who "get it." To paraphrase a political campaign from the 90s,
"It's the aspect ratio, stupid!"

I have high hopes for David Hill and his compatriots at Lenovo that they can get
through the mass-manufacturing mentality at his company to get us what we
need. But, just in case, I'm holding on to my W500 and planning to put together
a little NUC box or something even smaller like this:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... et-i&num=1

I just have to wait a little longer until 16G DDR4 memory sticks come along, and
then it won't matter what Lenovo/HP/Dell/Toshiba do. I would tell them where to put
their 16:9 displays, but this is a family forum.
Last edited by bit_twiddler on Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#84 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:18 am

Why waste money on a logo (fed by useless wiring) that you won't see anyway once your machine is on?
Illuminate the logo? Imitate Apple? Who needs it?
Besides, it would be another waste: of battery-life this time.
Spend that money instead towards a decent screen that is NOT made for watching movies!

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#85 Post by theterminator93 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:18 am

ajkula66 wrote:
lead_org wrote:I am glad that David Hill's blog got the attention it deserves, this is really something for the ThinkPad fans.
Let's hope that Lenovo doesn't disappoint these fans this time around because if they do, they won't be given another chance.
I definitely agree with that...

One thing I'm somewhat resigned to is the screen aspect. While I suppose it technically could be done to incorporate a 4:3 screen into this project (if they adopt and start designing for real), I realistically expect something with either 3:2 or 16:10; both of which I would be comfortable with after having used 16:10 for so long. 16:9 is just too difficult to adjust to IMO, and hopefully they'll find a supplier of a high quality IPS panels in either one of the taller aspects in a enough high resolution to be deemed "competitive" in today's high end market. As I understand it, they killed IPS after the T60 because of suppliers not being able to consistently deliver to their quality standards.

At least it looks like (based on the language in the blog) they've ruled out using more 16:9 panels, so let's all be happy for that. Nearly all the comments are cheering him on, so maybe he can use all that positive social feedback to prove there IS indeed a market for such a machine...
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#86 Post by dr_st » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:21 pm

I feel like too much focus is given to the screen ratio. Honestly, I don't care anymore if it's 4:3, 3:2, 8:5 or 16:9, as long as it's IPS, matte and with decent resolution.

To me the selling points would be - classic keyboard layout (obvious), physical trackpoint buttons (already present on last generation mainstream Thinkpads, so should be a non-issue), traditional bottom panel docking connector expandability (here the X300 series fails) and serviceability to match the older Thinkpads.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#87 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:49 pm

dr_st wrote:I feel like too much focus is given to the screen ratio. Honestly, I don't care anymore if it's 4:3, 3:2, 8:5 or 16:9, as long as it's IPS, matte and with decent resolution.
No 16:9, it is really useless. I don't insist on 4:3, 3:2 or 16:10 is still ok.
Last edited by Puppy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#88 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:50 pm

Norway Pad wrote:Seems like someone else had this idea too, and made this drawing: https://twitter.com/BetoSanro/status/61 ... 04/photo/1
Better with thin black horizontal stripes to mimic old IBM logo.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#89 Post by sysiphus » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Add me to the crowd that is interested, but not totally sold on what they're showing. A reincarnation of a T4x or T6x 4:3 model would have me buying in a heartbeat--despite being on a very limited grad student budget. The 7-row keyboard is a must for me (the minor tweaks between revisions don't bother me greatly), and the indicator lights are excellent too. I still prefer the ThinkLight to backlit keys, though it's not a make or break for me. With that said, I'd love a return the modular design of T (and even X) series past. A standard drive bay is a must, as is ram slots. The ability to swap storage and ram can massively extend the life of a machine, which is a must if they're really gunning for the premium segment the ThinkPad used to own. The perfect example is my father's X61t--he loves the FlexView and the keyboard, and being able to up the RAM to 8GB and throw in an SSD makes it a totally viable machine ~8 years later. Of course, this probably runs counter to the consumerist mindset that the corporate brass really wants, but there you go...

As for the display, 16:10 is a good step in the right direction, but 4:3 is really where it's at. The small footprint of a 12 or 14-inch 4:3 display makes for a fantastically portable machine (see how long many clung to their T61 and X61s) and provides excellent productivity in high-res form (SXGA+ or UXGA).

With their concept as-is, I think they'd get a decent part of the old crowd back. It's crazy that they dropped the keyboard, and with nobody offering a 7-row anymore, it would help. For all the volume/cost cutting arguments to be made about the screen aspect ratio and loss of modularity, there really is precious little defence for that move. A shift back to 16:10 would be appreciated, but without jumping to the far more compact (footprint) of 4:3, I don't think it would offer dramatically different designs needed to lure much of the mainstream business crowd in of itself. But one can always hope they'll go whole-hog on it. As for the modularity, I can't see it happening unless the design concept spreads back across the whole traditional T__p/W line. Outside of the workstation market (and even there one finds some "ultrabook" style models from Dell and HP now), most buyers would prefer thin and light, sadly. Just my 2c.
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FryPpy
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice

#90 Post by FryPpy » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:30 pm

dr_st wrote:I feel like too much focus is given to the screen ratio....

To me the selling points would be - classic keyboard layout (obvious)
This things are wired together;) You can remember transition from X61 to X200 (4:3 -> 16:10) which made installation of full sized keyboard possible in Ultraportables.

Transition to 16:9 (X220) made things worse - ultranav (touchpad) buttons have been lost to accomodate 7row keyboard and touchpad.

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