Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

Message

#691 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:55 am

Back to the 13.3" X301 or the 13.3" first X1?
Do we really want (or need) a fruit-compatible or fruit-sized screen?
What's wrong with the alternative 4:3 or 3:2 screens?
Why is David Hill so slow and indecisive?
Has he considered that we don't want another portable TV, but a laptop that you can WORK on or with?

So far there's absolutely nothing to Rejoice about...

Puppy · #692 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:17 am

RealBlackStuff wrote: Has he considered that we don't want another portable TV, but a laptop that you can WORK on or with?

That's probably the hardest aspect of the product to explain to the Lenovo management.

I am also worried whether Lenovo is capable to produce a laptop without so many issues that T450s or W550s have for instance. P50/P70 is probably the last try.

Summilux · #693 Post by **Summilux** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:35 pm

lead_org wrote:(...) Retro project (...) 16:10 screen (...)

Dear dog. Will Lenovo ever grow balls? Just how low do their sales need to fall until they get the message?

I so wish IBM were still in charge. Even if they made errors of appreciation, I don't think the situation would be nearly as bad as with what Lenovo has been doing.

Oh well, at least the classic keyboard is still a possibility, so the deal isn't completely broken (yet) for me. The keyboard is what's of utmost importance to me.

(And thanks for this update Lead).

RealBlackStuff wrote:fruit-compatible or fruit-sized screen

Great expression

Puppy · #694 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:50 pm

Summilux wrote: Dear dog. Will Lenovo ever grow balls? Just how low do their sales need to fall until they get the message?

It won't help. The market of "pro" laptops is almost dead because less and less people actually do any serious technical work (all these social media consultants and such crap does not count). Moreover the generation of people who has remembered laptops that were able to fully replace desktops is getting old

Check current Lenovo products. ThinkPad P70 pricing is insane, new Yoga Tablet 3 have worse all specs than previous generation (the post will be probably deleted again by Lenovo moderators because the content is politically incorrect = saying truth) but have same pricing. Latest T and W models have so many issues (CPU whine, BSOD, dead boards after BIOS update). What to expect ?

My hope we can get good laptop from Lenovo again is fading every week

hhhd1 · #695 Post by **hhhd1** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:56 pm

so lets do a little comparison:

Apple:
have their own custom made high quality LCD.

Lenovo:
1. went from having IPS on 2005, to none between 2009 and 2013 on 14" and 15" LCD.
2. LCD lottery, as well as keyboard/fan/HDD lottery, so reviews on notebookcheck.net are insignificant.
3. in some cases LCDs of the T series is worst than some consumer grade laptops, not only cheap LCD.

---------

Why is Apple's LCD not a good option for Lenovo to copy ?

1. Lenovo need to know that DPI scaling in windows is not good, so they need to provide multiple choices when it comes to resolution.
So even if they were able to get apple's retina display, it won't be good for windows environment.

2. it is 16:10 , which is fine for media oriented users, not for work.

Puppy · #696 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:00 pm

hhhd1 wrote: Apple:
have their own custom made high quality LCD.

Ha ha. MacBook Pro retina panels made by LG.Display have the same excessive image retention as Lenovo X220 and later series.

https://www.facebook.com/ImageRetention ... MacbookPro
https://www.change.org/p/apple-replace- ... ubber-feet

hhhd1 wrote: 1. Lenovo need to know that DPI scaling in windows is not good, so they need to provide multiple choices when it comes to resolution.
So even if they were able to get apple's retina display, it won't be good for windows environment.

How many times will people repeat this without any experience ? DPI scaling is always horrible on current low DPI displays. You would have to had at least 10 times higher density (similar to top specs mobile phones). 4K only resolution on 15" size delivers the same results on every platform, anti-aliased text looks blurry http://annystudio.com/misc/anti-aliased-fonts-hurt/

hhhd1 wrote: 3. in some cases LCDs of the T series is worst than some consumer grade laptops, not only cheap LCD.

The only good displays were 15" SXGA+ or UXGA. The rest was horrible TN crap with zero contrast. Suprisingly the first Lenovo 15" FHD IPS model is E560. The issue of current models is the manufacturer lottery (LG, Samsug, AUO) and bad/no QA driven by cutting costs. Lenovo does not have anything similar to HP DreamColor.

Summilux · #697 Post by **Summilux** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:05 pm

Puppy wrote:It won't help. The market of "pro" laptops is almost dead because less and less people actually do any serious technical work (all these social media consultants and such crap does not count). Moreover the generation of people who has remembered laptops that were able to fully replace desktops is getting old

Smug STEM bias. One certainly doesn't need to do a technical work (I don't) in order to realise how valuable a proper keyboard and screen format can be.

I also believe there will always be a market for seriously engineered laptops. Look at vinyls, B&W film, old school videogames, etc. They still sell. To aficionados or hipsters, but they still sell.
However small, there will always be a market. And as long as there's a market, there's room for vendors. It just takes different approaches in terms of conception and pricing as the market evolves from mass to niche. And business flair, of course... something Lenovo certainly lacks, as evidenced by your appalling examples.

hhhd1 · #698 Post by **hhhd1** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:10 pm

Puppy wrote: MacBook Pro retina panels made by LG.Display have the same excessive image retention as Lenovo X220 and later series.

https://www.facebook.com/ImageRetention ... MacbookPro
https://www.change.org/p/apple-replace- ... ubber-feet

Personally, I would rather buy any other consumer laptop from hp/dell/asus/..etc before i buy an Apple.
this looking like a QC issue though, while they still tried to do good quality LCD .. that lenovo currently can't put its hand on.

Puppy wrote:How many times will people repeat this without any experience ? DPI scaling is always horrible on current low DPI displays. You would have to had at least 10 times higher density

the retina display that lenovo currently is trying to acquire, will only need DPI scaling of about 150% to 175%, which won't look good.
and also, application support is not good, for example google for issues of people trying to RDP to servers while using a surface pro.

Puppy wrote:The only good displays were 15" SXGA+ or UXGA.

my point is,
in 2005, you can buy a 15" thinkpad with IPS.
in 2011, you can't.

Puppy · #699 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Summilux wrote:They still sell. To aficionados or hipsters, but they still sell.

I know, the best example is "retro" digital camera started by Fuji X100 and now copied by other camera vendors (actually, they are just going back to their roots). Somehow this concept does not work for laptops because IBM ThinkPad had been always exceptional and Lenovo makes profit on selling cheap junk.

Puppy · #700 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:18 pm

hhhd1 wrote:the retina display that lenovo currently is trying to acquire, will only need DPI scaling of about 150% to 175%, which won't look good.
and also, application support is not good, for example google for issues of people trying to RDP to servers while using a surface pro.

On 15" 4K display the DPI scaling 200% provides you FHD resolution but double density (still low) to get more acceptable anti-aliased text. RDP scaling is solved in Windows 10 and improved in Windows 8.1 http://blog.falafel.com/remote-desktop- ... pi-screen/ You can not expect support for 10+ years old applications, it is a bonus you can at least run them.

I use Windows 8.1 with 150% scaling on 8" 1920x1200 display and found no issues. The display density allows me to use anti-aliasing without annoyances I still can see on larger displays.

hhhd1 wrote:my point is,
in 2005, you can buy a 15" thinkpad with IPS.
in 2011, you can't.

in 2015 you can again but the quality is questionable

#701 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:51 pm

Today there is still a market for the good old T601 FrankenPad (15" T60 chassis/case with 14.1" T61 mobo).
It can be made with the excellent BoeHydis 15" UXGA IPS with ex-factory LED-backlight.
If Lenovo is interested, I will show them how to do the LED-mod!

Summilux · #702 Post by **Summilux** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:00 pm

Puppy wrote:I know, the best example is "retro" digital camera started by Fuji X100 and now copied by other camera vendors (actually, they are just going back to their roots). Somehow this concept does not work for laptops because IBM ThinkPad had been always exceptional.

That's a great example which, I believe, also applies to Thinkpads. Let me develop it a bit, as there are good lessons for the laptop industry, which needs its own Fuji.

When Canon ditched its FD mount for the new EOS one, it also started to ditch extremely useful manual controls such as the aperture ring and the shutter speed knob. Other mainstream companies eventually did the same, including Nikon which until quite recently still maintained very few (and old) lenses with focusing rings in its lineup.

Because who really needs them, right? It's an era of electronic, digital cameras! Just use those cool multifunction thumbwheels located on the front and rear of the cameras, geezer! Don't cling to your antiquated layout, it's just too old - and if it's old, it must be worse!

Eh. With the exception of Epson and its RD1, that's how the industry rolled; and few had complaints. But then one smart company which had loads of experience in camera making, but had been away from the "serious consumer" market for quite some time, understood that there were some unadressed niches to serve.

Namely:

Traditional button layout (going back to the roots, as you aptly put it)
Non-Bayer type sensor filter
Excellent firmware support

It then proceeded to release several such "prosumer" cameras and lenses, which have been well-received by the enthusiasts: the X100 series (fixed-lens rangefinders), X-E series (interchangeable-lens rangefinders), X-M1 (interchangeable-lens mirrorless) and lately the X-T1 (DSLR-shaped mirrorless with electronic viewfinder).

Despite the various form factors to please different publics with different needs, most feature a shutter speed knob on the top plate, and all interchangeable-lens models can accept lenses fitted with focusing rings (which, icing on the cake, are praised for their excellent price/performance ratio). The firmware of these models are also maintained a comparatively long time after the cameras have been released, with a focus on not only fixing bug, but also improving performance.

The Fuji approach contrasts in particular with that of Sony, whose cameras are know to feature some of the best hardware on the market and investigate niches (for which I commend them, the RX series is excellent) yet are often fitted with a subpar user interface and crippling firmware support.

Both brands are making money. Their stuff sells. But on different levels. To caricature a bit, Fuji counts on fulfilling unmet needs and give good attention to user experience & feedback in the longer term; whilst Sony counts on its technological lead, cramming its camera with the highest-specced components and hoping to get market shares on this alone, leaving the rest (including its own customers) aside.

See where we can begin to draw a comparison? Fuji is what Thinkpads used to be about, Sony is more like Apple with its focus on hardware and design (except the latter makes better UI). Sony can afford to play the Apple game because both have great engineers. But can Lenovo imitate Fuji?

I believe it can, and it would be very realistic. Just like Fuji didn't reinvent the wheel, all Lenovo would have to do is look back and copy what everybody in the whole industry -not just IBM- was doing 10 years ago: square(ish) screens, non-chiclet keyboards, boatloads of status LEDs, latches, etc. Tried and tested design relying on available components, that just like Canon in its time, Lenovo ditched for no real ergonomic reason (other than imitating Apple).

So really, there's no magic here. What distinguished IBM back then wasn't the technology it used; it's how polished its execution was. Lenovo could reproduce the IBM experience if only it had common sense, business vision and actual consideration for its customers. Money is no excuse. Fuji is the very proof that sensible old design makes money in a 21st century fast-paced industry.

#703 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:36 pm

I used to have a Fuji Finepix F30 for years. Famous as one of the best pocket cameras for low light.
When that died, I went down to the previous F20, because another F30 (or its sister F31d) was nowhere to be found.
Only 3 months ago I picked up my current F40fd which is almost as good as the 'old' F30.
These cameras all date from around the mid 2000s, same period as the T40/T60 Thinkpads.
They are great for amateurs like me, who don't have a smartphone, and who are not interested in selfies.
You stay with what you like best, something Lenovo apparently never even heard!

Puppy · #704 Post by **Puppy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:23 pm

Summilux wrote:But can Lenovo imitate Fuji?

The question is whether Lenovo wants to do that. Using our example with digital camera, imagine Fuji still making a lot of money by cheap junk 1/2.3" sensor cameras without mechanical buttons, F3.5 or worse lenses and so on. Would they ever think of an X100 product ? Probably not. Lenovo is still #1 in number of PC, laptop and tablets sold. As you noted: "Their stuff sells", no need to change anything. Fuji was in a completely different situation, they had to introduce a new product (their only DSLR was Nikon based) because market of cheap P/S cameras was fading replaced by smartphones. So they tried the retro concept and it worked very well.

BTW I switched from Fuji S1500 to Sony A5000

The Sony was for half price of similar Fuji two years ago. Unfortunately I still need a laptop rather than camera for my job otherwise I could enjoy really nice selection of great cameras like Fuji X-T1 or Sony A7 and RX or Olympus OM-D. I wish I had similar options for laptops

RealBlackStuff wrote:I used to have a Fuji Finepix F30 for years.

F30 was a legend for a long time.

evening_hunger · #705 Post by **evening_hunger** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:23 pm

I shoot Nikon F3 on film (and only that:) ). Now, Lenovo seels so well I suspect, because they sell well in mainland China, which has half of world's population, right? How's that for a speculation?
Sooner or later, if 'serious laptops' are doomed to become a niche market, someone will make them. Kind of like MSE or Razer (of whom nobody in Europe has heard unless from Youtube). So I wouldn't despair...

Bibin · #706 Post by **Bibin** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:51 pm

Sometimes it feels like this thread is approaching cult-ish and entitled demands.

ajkula66 · #707 Post by **ajkula66** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:02 pm

Bibin wrote:Sometimes it feels like this thread is approaching cult-ish and entitled demands.

Blame IBM. It was their laptops which were head and shoulders above competition and got all of us spoiled rotten...

Summilux · #708 Post by **Summilux** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:30 pm

Puppy wrote:The question is whether Lenovo wants to do that. Using our example with digital camera, imagine Fuji still making a lot of money by cheap junk 1/2.3" sensor cameras without mechanical buttons, F3.5 or worse lenses and so on. Would they ever think of an X100 product ? Probably not. Lenovo is still #1 in number of PC, laptop and tablets sold. As you noted: "Their stuff sells", no need to change anything. Fuji was in a completely different situation, they had to introduce a new product (their only DSLR was Nikon based) because market of cheap P/S cameras was fading replaced by smartphones. So they tried the retro concept and it worked very well.

Yes, that's the classic low inertia of established market players.

It explains why Kodak famously failed miserably by missing the digital train... whilst ironically being a pioneer in the field; adding insult to injury.
And currently why Canon and Nikon have very reluctantly, and up to now very awkwardly, introduced mirrorless models. Too afraid to cannibalise their DSLRs... but not minding putting their whole camera businesses at risk as with their mindset.

There are nuances between the examples above, though. Kodak was relatively taken by storm, and had to face competition from a different industry (electronics vs chemicals). Canikon do not have these excuses: the mirrorless market has been slowly but growing, and it is part of the very same electronics industry to boot.

Is Lenovo more of a Kodak or Canikon, we could ask ourselves?
Let's see. Lenovo is big in computing, and the various competition it faces also comes from (broadly defined) computing. Not a Kodak.
It also has put its eggs in various baskets: laptops, servers, tablets, smartphones. Not a Canikon.

Going by that, Lenovo should therefore have no incentive to release proper Thinkpads. Why should it? Its sales are still relatively healthy and it has hedged its bets. Carving the Thinkpad niche, instead of just scratching it, would just be a waste of resources.

Or would it?

As recently as 2010, PCs still made up the lion's share of the total SCD [smart connected devices] device market, with the combined desktop and notebook categories accounting for about 52.5% of shipments versus 44.7% for smartphones and 2.8% for tablets. By 2014, smartphones had grown to represent 73.4% of total shipment, while PCs had slipped to 16.8% and tablets had increased to 12.5%. By 2019, IDC expects the distribution to be 77.8% smartphones, 11.6% PCs, and 10.7% tablets.

(Source: IDC)

Things are no longer like when Lenovo bought IBM's personal computing division back then. The market has shifted dramatically in favour smartphones and tablets; and there's no chance to re-establish the balance towards PCs anymore. Lenovo must have somehow remarked this trend, since the company boasted that it "became largest vendor of smartphones in China, with 12.5% market share."

That's why the company is so confident. The market, moreover, is going right in its alley:

Globally, the smartphone market is shifting from premium to mainstream – and this trend favors Lenovo’s strengths. We have experience from our PC success in building a strong, sustainable business in this kind of environment. Looking ahead, we will solidify our China smartphone business while focusing on profitable growth in this highly competitive market. We will also continue to boldly attack emerging market opportunities where we see even more room for growth.

That's beautiful. But that's also PR horsecrap, and calls for a reality check.

Mainstream? Lower quality. Lenovo's PC experience? Chinese market mainly: lower quality. Emerging market? Lower quality. Profitable growth? Profitable Growth Paradox: "Most growth investment will at first reduce the profitability, *cost reduction efforts* to boost the bottom line usually have a negative impact on future growth." Lower quality again, because there's no free lunch.

Lenovo therefore sees cost-cutting as a potent strategy to ensure not only its survival, but also its thrive.

Let that sink in for a minute.

And now realise that with around 5% share of the overall smartphone market, Lenovo is small fry. Apple (the fruit guys again!) and Samsung are the ones to beat. Oh, and also the other Chinese manufacturers who are expanding overseas. The domestic market? There are countless cheap competitors (Chinese vs Chinese, that's hardcore), and if you look above, the upmarket segment has recently seen very young yet very serious competitors: One Plus, Oppo, Xiaomi, etc.
Lenovo admit it themselves: "Our smartphone business in China make a little bit of money, but not so much." How are they going to maintain their ambitions, then? With their brand, Motorola's patents *cough* (or what remains of them after Google's ownership) *cough*, and their cost-cutting experience.

So... they have basically nothing to firmly oppose the competition. When the entry market no longer makes money, it is customary to target the premium market. But they can't even do that since it's already crowded. Uh oh. Cost-cutting isn't going to... cut it, it seems.

Then what? Lenovo's finished? No, maybe not. In the words of a management consultant:

The only way out of the Profitable Growth Paradox is through Innovation, the capacity to find a new market space where competition is milder. Without Innovation firms will see their Business model eroding and the dream of Profitable Growth vanishing.

Phew.

But wait. What's the next big thing in the smartphone space? Projectors? Not so new. Huge foldable screens? The Koreans are about to release smartphones with such screens. Errr... what about modular phones? The Fairphone's already here and the Puzzlephone will soon be out. Ha ha, but what about the cheap ones? That's where Lenovo excels! Cheap with a strong brand, remember? The highly modular Project Ara set to see a limited release next year should cost as low as 50€, and it's a Google project. Can't beat that brand name. Also, the upcoming RePhone will be made of cardboard. Can't beat that low cost.

Well, well, well. Lenovo's future doesn't look so bright anymore.

If I were them, I'd certainly reconsider treating the Classic Thinpad as a side project that you can toss at Thinkpad loyalists like the half-baked treat which obedient lapdogs deserve.
Instead, I would diligently study the Fuji way of approaching the market and treating its customers, as I would want to replicate their success for the niche I'll inevitably have to rely on.
But that's just me; I'm an armchair Thinkpad loyalist after all

Summilux · #709 Post by **Summilux** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:49 am

Summilux wrote:To caricature a bit, Fuji counts on fulfilling unmet needs and give good attention to user experience & feedback in the longer term; whilst Sony counts on its technological lead, cramming its camera with the highest-specced components and hoping to get market shares on this alone, leaving the rest (including its own customers) aside.

I stumbled on a recent comment, comparing Sony's A6000 to Fuji's X-T1, which echoes what I was saying:

I just never warmed up to the Sony. If you read all the specs and technological data the Sony is a very nice package with all the bells and whistles a gear person is looking for. I just sold it all and bought into the Fuji system with the X-T1. I'm back to enjoying photography, just taking pictures. Specs are nice to research but getting a camera in the hand and taking pictures, that's what it's about to me. To sum it up, the Sony is a great piece of equipment with specs a lot of people are looking for, the X-T1 is a camera to enjoy taking photos with, oh and the specs on it are pretty nice too.

That's what it comes down to. There's cramming the best available hardware to count on bragging rights for sales; and then there's selecting adequate hardware whilst crafting a sensible user interface, so that together they provide a seamless experience.

Two philosophies with two different priorities - it's pretty clear which one puts the customer first, and which Lenovo would have to get an inspiration from if it were a respectable company blessed with common sense.

(Sorry if I introduced an off-topic discussion within this thread, but the comparison with the camera industry is really adept at showing that a Classic line of Thinkpads could do well... if Lenovo were the Fuji of laptops.)

Puppy · #710 Post by **Puppy** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:00 am

As for the Sony vs Fuji, there is another big reason to go for Fuji, lenses.

Summilux wrote:Lower quality again, because there's no free lunch.

Have you noticed than during last two years the price of electronics with similar specs went up ? All these weak "laptops" with Intel Atom or Celeron CPUs, slow drives, crappy keyboards and display etc sells. If you want to upgrade three years old i3/i5 consumer laptop to get at least similar performance and features (CPU power, drive, backlight keyboard etc) it is definitely more expensive now (at least over here in collapsing EU) than three years ago. The same with Lenovo Yoga 3 tablets compared to previous generation. And yes, most of customers didn't notice. This is latest trick of cutting costs.

With such attitude I can't imagine how (and why) would Lenovo wanted to sell high-quality laptop model when almost nobody care. Well, maybe they could reach the magic 15000 preorders if ever announced

Summilux wrote:But wait. What's the next big thing in the smartphone space?

Free (= not for money) smartphones having even more privacy issues than current Android devices have. This is what both Apple and Microsoft haven't expected. People buy these horrible crappy "OS" cheap devices that have both strong security and privacy issues without even thinking about the consequences. It is the biggest experiment on people made yet and these results are disappointing (at least for me).

#711 Post by **RealBlackStuff** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:17 am

@Summilux:

You a journalist or an analyst? If not, you may have missed your calling!
Lenovo could learn a thing or two from your above posts!

Summilux · #712 Post by **Summilux** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:19 pm

Puppy wrote:As for the Sony vs Fuji, there is another big reason to go for Fuji, lenses.

Have you noticed than during last two years the price of electronics with similar specs went up ? All these weak "laptops" with Intel Atom or Celeron CPUs, slow drives, crappy keyboards and display etc sells. If you want to upgrade three years old i3/i5 consumer laptop to get at least similar performance and features (CPU power, drive, backlight keyboard etc) it is definitely more expensive now (at least over here in collapsing EU) than three years ago. The same with Lenovo Yoga 3 tablets compared to previous generation. And yes, most of customers didn't notice. This is latest trick of cutting costs.

With such attitude I can't imagine how (and why) would Lenovo wanted to sell high-quality laptop model when almost nobody care. Well, maybe they could reach the magic 15000 preorders if ever announced

Yes, I quickly mentionned it earlier, Fuji's lenses have real value for money, some of the best in their class.
Really, Fuji have their flaws like anyone else, but their presence in the market is refreshing. And should serve as an inspiration across the industries, because what they are doing is not rocket science, it's just having a keen interest for the customer: from striving to provide a great experience, to making respectable profits without trying to milk the consumers.

I follow technological news but I don't pay much attention to laptops specs/price since I'm only really interested in a Classic(ish) Thinkpad, and as we know, news are quite scarce in this department. Also I'm still stuck with decade old pricing standards, whereby 1000€ for a laptop was still common for a barely average laptops.
You're making a good point though, one should always try to compare the object of his interest with this object's predecessor, and in case of price bump, see how justified it is. I ought to improve my discipline in this department.

In terms of marketing tricks, I do remember ATI (before AMD's buy-out) releasing a new Radeon which had a slightly bigger model number than older cards, and for either a similar or slightly more expensive price. So one would logically assume that it was better - bigger is better, remember? Except it had worse performance than its older direct counterpart.

Lenovo can sadly get away with odious marketing schemes, as you point out. Consumers are largely uneducated about these practices, which I surmise has a lot to do with the relative complexity induced by the computing jargon (does the average person know the difference between SATA-II and SATA-III? They don't even know what this is about). But fortunately Lenovo is already being squeezed at both ends of the "personal computing market" (PC/tablets/smartphone); which will either force them to look at possible niches (but how late?) once the consumers will be milked by companies other than Lenovo, or will just incur their gradual demise (payback time).

I believe the awareness of laptop users could be raised efficiently via smart and prolonged marketing campaigns. Lenovo's slogan doesn't even need to be changed! "For those who do". Efficiency before beauty. Actually, efficiency is the real beauty. A good tool is the new cool. That space station floating above us? It uses Thinkpads - not Macs. Cool uses cool. That bento box you saw in your favourite Japanese drama? I have the same on my lap doing 3D rendering. Kawaïï meets kawaïï. That kinda expensive tool your company just ordered? You're about to receive a Thinkpad. Professional price for professional grade.

Give Thinkpads to TV/cinema/Youtube "celebrities" and invite them for cool Lenovo workshops. Sponsor sports events with the Thinkpad brand. Buy TV spots and spread the empowering message. Societies are all about empowerment theses days*, might as well ride on that wave. (* There's actual sociological research about that.)
None of these people are the actual target users of Thinkpads, but it's those various people who need to be converted; converted to better ergonomics and better values. Of course, the conversion rate would be low. But perseverance would be paying through a higher number of customers, a better awareness/acceptance of Thinkpads, and therefore a better positioning in the professional laptop niche (which has certainly decreased in the past years, and is actually needed in light of Lenovo's future commercial struggles across the board).

Yeah. It could work. But then it would contradict the rest of Lenovo's line-up, according to which: style is very important, price matters for the masses, but it's okay to sell ever low specs for an ever high price

Puppy wrote:Free (= not for money) smartphones having even more privacy issues than current Android devices have. This is what both Apple and Microsoft haven't expected. People buy these horrible crappy "OS" cheap devices that have both strong security and privacy issues without even thinking about the consequences. It is the biggest experiment on people made yet and these results are disappointing (at least for me).

Great point. Free Internet should already arrive in remote places, I think that's what Google and Facebook intend to do - to make it free. Free data analytics computing tools would be a logical next step.

I seem to recall that, a decade or so ago, a company had tried or at least toyed with the idea of providing free phone calls in exchange for advertisements at regular intervals. Such a concept would be doomed to fail because it bothers the users too much, it is too invasive. But thanks to new technology, it's possible to provide free services to people whilst exploiting them transparently. Google already did this in the USA when it needed to train its voice recognition software; providing free voice search over phone for a time. And of course, anything Internet-related is fine. People don't care about their email accounts being parsed continuously, since they don't see it.

On that matter, I empathise with your cynicism, but I think you are being a unfair. And that's coming from someone who's been consistently losing his faith in humanity over the last years.
All these people are using Google/Apple/MS/FB products uncritically, which is unwise to say the least. Agreed. But it shouldn't be forgotten that they're doing this in good faith. They are not the problem - just part of it. The initial problem lies in the evil companies themselves. Dishonesty trumps naivety.
To nuance what I've just said, there are "necessary evils" for which I'd rather sell my soul to Google as they do come up with convenient products, and beyond that, they're working on tremendously useful endeavours through their Moonshot philosophy. There's also the argument that "it's people who're pushing for the gratuity/data-mining model through their continuous refusal to pay for consumption", but find this reasoning shaky.

Personally, I use select Google products with select compromises on my privacy. Gmail is excellent - for my junk/less serious mail. Android is quite alright - but I wouldn't let it upload my pictures on Google's services. These sorts of things.

Which brings us back to Lenovo: which privacy-aware customer would be willing to sacrifice his privacy for the sake of Lenovo? They don't even have products worth doing the sacrifice.

Summilux · #713 Post by **Summilux** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:20 pm

ajkula66 wrote:Blame IBM. It was their laptops which were head and shoulders above competition and got all of us spoiled rotten...

Agreed. Thinking we're entitled is misjudging both our mindsets and the Thinkpad heritage. Okay, our words can come harsh. But we aren't even asking for new features for heaven's sake, we just want the old proven features back!

RealBlackStuff wrote:@Summilux:

You a journalist or an analyst? If not, you may have missed your calling!
Lenovo could learn a thing or two from your above posts!

That's thinking too highly of me

I'm merely put together a few thoughts about the laptop/camera makers that I had been harbouring for quite some time; thoughts which were nurtured by the many discussions I've had or lurked on places such as this forum (in this very thread, Puppy mentionning Fuji). I owe a lot to Internet interactions, beyond sheer knowledge even, and for that I'm grateful.

To do things properly I'd have to read Lenovo Investors' reports, Lenovo PR and Lenovo-related articles dating back at least a decade; go through D.Hill's and other Lenovo Blogs propaganda (including the related comments, which exponentially increases the reading time); read extensively our dear forum (my first and oldest TP is a T60, which says much about how new I am and how little I know compared to many here)... and then do the same with Fuji, Canon, Nikon. Also get my hands on every few year's industry reports to get a more accurate feel of the context.

Short of performing all that, and having written/checked things as they came, I may well have spewed a load of bollocks

Though I don't think I'm mistaken regarding Lenovo's overall quandary for the years to come. Let's see how they fare, say, by the end of 2020; and how they're going to pivot as they lose market shares.

kony · #714 Post by **kony** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:36 pm

Lenovo does great gaming laptops though, they are usually the best in performance/price ratio (especially mid-end, which sells the best), and they seem to be quite good in media laptops too, hence why I don't think they will care much about the business class, which most probably generates less money than even a quarter of media laptops or gaming laptops. I wouldn't let my hopes up too much.

Puppy · #715 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:48 am

Summilux wrote:All these people are using Google/Apple/MS/FB products uncritically, which is unwise to say the least. Agreed. But it shouldn't be forgotten that they're doing this in good faith. They are not the problem - just part of it. The initial problem lies in the evil companies themselves.

Not really. It is important to split them into two groups; A: Apple and MS who still receive money for most of their products and services and B: Google and FB that provides their services and/or crapOS for "free" but the actual cost is very high. That's why I am trying to refrain from using group B services as much as possible because their business model is based on spying, taking control of your device, no interest in security and similar techniques. The group A does not have a reason to do that.

Back to the topic. The lack of information about progress of the Retro project, in (a)social media age, does not help to make people believe the project will be a big success. That's another paradox, the more social media communication channels we have, the less relevant information we actually get.

Summilux · #716 Post by **Summilux** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:47 am

Puppy wrote:Not really. It is important to split them into two groups; A: Apple and MS who still receive money for most of their products and services and B: Google and FB that provides their services and/or crapOS for "free" but the actual cost is very high. That's why I am trying to refrain from using group B services as much as possible because their business model is based on spying, taking control of your device, no interest in security and similar techniques. The group A does not have a reason to do that.

Back to the topic. The lack of information about progress of the Retro project, in (a)social media age, does not help to make people believe the project will be a big success. That's another paradox, the more social media communication channels we have, the less relevant information we actually get.

You are right in that their business models are different, but the companies in Group A -whilst doing a better job- still have questionable privacy practices. And it's unsurprising they'd tap into some of their users' data to various extents, because it's a good way to get more insights about their user base and further lock it into their ecosystem.

I recall D. Hill saying the project would be more "open" that what Lenovo has ever done, but it's indeed lacking for the moment. I haven't checked Lenovo's main media channels, but as you say a Classic Project channel should have been created. For example, they could have started posting a few teasers since CES is a mere few weeks away and Lenovo is supposed to give us a good update.
Then again, if they're still stuck at the screen selection stage, we may not see anything at CES...

Puppy · #717 Post by **Puppy** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:28 am

Summilux wrote:still have questionable privacy practices

The important information from the article about Microsoft: "It just doesn’t sell ads against it."

Summilux wrote:I recall D. Hill saying the project would be more "open" that what Lenovo has ever done, but it's indeed lacking for the moment. I haven't checked Lenovo's main media channels, but as you say a Classic Project channel should have been created. For example, they could have started posting a few teasers since CES is a mere few weeks away and Lenovo is supposed to give us a good update.
Then again, if they're still stuck at the screen selection stage, we may not see anything at CES...

The Lenovo Blog is now full of typical corporate crap

There is no longer good technical content written by Matt Kohut or David Hill. If they are still stuck at the screen aspect ratio decision it shows they are not capable to realize such project anymore.

As for screens: Apple Opens Secret Laboratory in Taiwan to Develop New Screens Current screen vendors might be affected by it and willing to provide more "non-TV" screen custom formats.

Summilux · #718 Post by **Summilux** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:41 am

Puppy wrote:The Lenovo Blog is now full of typical corporate crap There is no longer good technical content written by Matt Kohut or David Hill. If they are still stuck at the screen aspect ratio decision it shows they are not capable to realize such project anymore.

As for screens: Apple Opens Secret Laboratory in Taiwan to Develop New Screens Current screen vendors might be affected by it and willing to provide more "non-TV" screen custom formats.

Either it's a bargaining chip against screen manufacturers, or a real move towards further integration (which sounds very plausible given they're doing the same in the graphics department). As you say, maybe that could help bring variety in the laptop world. But will computer makers be more prone to taking advantage of it?

Maybe that'd benefit a company like Panasonic which maintains less-conventional laptop lines... but seeing how Lenovo didn't bother with the (apparently) readily available 3:2, I wouldn't be so sure about the next generations of Thinkpads offering better screen ratio options.

bhtooefr · #719 Post by **bhtooefr** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:31 pm

It is worth noting, by the way, that Apple had never sold a laptop with an IPS screen before 2012. So, while Lenovo did backslide, it wasn't like you could get a Mac laptop with IPS before June 2012.

(Also, the Samsung panel doesn't have the image retention issues of the LG panel.)

lophiomys · #720 Post by **lophiomys** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:35 am

not really intending to defend Apple here,
but reading this by chance on a MacBookPro Mid 2009 with an acceptable TN panel,
what makes the difference is, that the TN panels used by Apple before the introduction of
IPS Retina LCDs where discernable better than the TN panels integrated in Lenovo Thinkpads.
(e.g. the poor screen quality stopped me from purchasing the X300 for steep EUR 2500,- then...)

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