Thinkpads Forum

evening_hunger wrote:Things look quiet at the moment.

Still quiet and it´s making me a bit worried that we might not see any announcements during CES. It ends tomorrow right? A small part of me (a weak part) almost want them to just go with a "regular" 16:9 just to speed things up..

But of course, it´s best if they take their time and make the best machine possible.

bgx wrote: For thinkpad classic, I guess they are waiting to secure the screen before they make an annocement.
Imagine they do before, and then they can never have the screen and they need to redo from scratch...

Sad for us thought

Or they could just show us any prototype and tell us clearly that the final product will vary wildly.

But it's Lenovo.

Now to be fair and even though I have a strong dislike for this company, I think the CES announcement thingy was never made "officially". I don't recall D. Hill's exact wording but it may have been "around CES" or something; and that was on his blog, not on a more corporate space. Let's say it affords Lenovo some degree of plausible deniability.

Some brands have the habit to unveil specific models after CES (Fuji will supposedly announce the X-Pro 2 on the 15th), or the following month, in February (major telephone fair in France IIRC, and camera fair in Japan). Lenovo could follow such trend. Or may not at all.

Because it's Lenovo.

When Lenovo completed the acquisition of Motorola Mobility back in 2014, it said "We plan to not only protect the Motorola brand, but make it stronger."
(...)
"We'll slowly phase out Motorola," said Motorola Chief Operating Officer Rick Osterloh.

http://www.gsmarena.com/lenovo_phasing_ ... -15932.php

I asked for status refresh of the project in Lenovo CES 2016 dedicated forum and got no reply yet. Even simple "we're working on it" would be ok.

Well, let's wait.....and have enough patience...for me.....don't really think i would buy one new...because like everything lenovo produced it might have quite some ridicule bugs.....just not funny but very anoying on an daily use....

And i need an very trusty machine...everything should work very well..so build an prototype....test it...test it long enough...and then go and produce it.....otherwise it might have faults, bugs, whatever...

So this is it...

CES is over and there was nothing new about the "retro" thinkpad So I guess this means that Lenovo is still sourcing parts and designing. It would be nice to hear something to know that the project is still on. Info from lead is always nice and I totally trust leads word, but official info is better and of course not everyone interested in the "retro" thinkpad hangs around in this forum.

Let's hope we hear something soon.

PandorasThinkpad wrote:Well, let's wait.....and have enough patience...for me.....don't really think i would buy one new...because like everything lenovo produced it might have quite some ridicule bugs.....just not funny but very anoying on an daily use....

This is very valid point, unfortunately Quote from Lenovo forum

IBM R50e still working, no defects or issues other than we have filled uo the hard drive!
Lenovo E330 - Two motherboard replacements and one hard disk replacement.
Lenovo E530 - Whole computer replacement followed by motherboard replacement and a continuing issue.
Next machine will be from different manufacturer.

Edge series is cheaper but still has the ThinkPad logo. Given number of T450s and even P70 issues in forums I have doubts Lenovo can (want ?) ever produce a reliable laptop again. Although the European Union is part of the issue (and now more issues than this ) because of Lead-free solder directive introduced in 2006. As said in wikipedia:

Repeated thermal cycling cause the formation of voids which tends to cause solder cracks. Lead-free solder can cause short life cycles of products, as well as planned obsolescence.

Hill's desgin was actually named T92 (correct me if I'm wrong). So 1992+25=2017 maybe the target release date after all... Here's hoping.

evening_hunger wrote:Hill's desgin was actually named T92 (correct me if I'm wrong). So 1992+25=2017 maybe the target release date after all... Here's hoping.

It would make sense, read this post in Lenovo forum We asked David Hill, Lenovo's Chief Design Officer, during a Periscope Q&A. Here are the highlights of what he said:

- I would love to release something like this for the ThinkPad's 25th Anniversary (2017)

Not unexpectedly David Hill's comments sound like a bunch of feeble excuses, especially the display one!
If 16:10 is so hard to get, why not get 3:2 instead?
Lenovo, take the finger out!

Actually it makes me wonder: does Lenovo realize that people actually started lingering, stopping themselves from buying Yogas, P4/50/60 or the new *60 generation models, because they're hoping for the Retro? I am. And if life ever taught me anything, it's that I don't much stand out in any way. So I suppose such thinking is widespread.

Puppy wrote:Although the European Union is part of the issue because of Lead-free solder directive introduced in 2006. As said in wikipedia:

Repeated thermal cycling cause the formation of voids which tends to cause solder cracks. Lead-free solder can cause short life cycles of products, as well as planned obsolescence.

I'm okay with that.

In the grand scheme of things, reducing the poisoning of the environment is much more important than augmenting a computer's lifespan. (One could argue that having to replace electronic devices more quickly leads to greater environmental damage, but given the already appalling consumption patterns of the last decades, I don't buy the speculation that the Union's directive would worsen the overall situation.)

So don't blame the UE, blame the materials engineers who still haven't found environment-compliant workarounds or the technical managers who still haven't implemented them.

evening_hunger wrote:Actually it makes me wonder: does Lenovo realize that people actually started lingering, stopping themselves from buying Yogas, P4/50/60 or the new *60 generation models, because they're hoping for the Retro? I am. And if life ever taught me anything, it's that I don't much stand out in any way. So I suppose such thinking is widespread.

Since Lenovo only seems to care about numbers, I'd wager they don't give a rat's ars(e) about the behaviour of those of us asking for a Classic Thinkpad; for our relatively feeble number won't affect Lenovo's bottom line.

Lenovo: all talk, no action.

Summilux wrote:

Puppy wrote:Although the European Union is part of the issue because of Lead-free solder directive introduced in 2006. As said in wikipedia:

Repeated thermal cycling cause the formation of voids which tends to cause solder cracks. Lead-free solder can cause short life cycles of products, as well as planned obsolescence.

I'm okay with that.

In the grand scheme of things, reducing the poisoning of the environment is much more important than augmenting a computer's lifespan. (One could argue that having to replace electronic devices more quickly leads to greater environmental damage, but given the already appalling consumption patterns of the last decades, I don't buy the speculation that the Union's directive would worsen the overall situation.)

So don't blame the UE, blame the materials engineers who still haven't found environment-compliant workarounds or the technical managers who still haven't implemented them.

Really? Adding lead was actually the workaround for a lot of things;

*Adding lead to solder means tin whiskers grow much slower.
*Adding lead to solder makes it less brittle; making it less likely to break
*Adding lead to solder makes the melting point of the solder lower; less heat has to be applied, making applying solder to any component that doesn't like that heat (pretty much everything, but fine electronics especially) easier

Just so you know. And oh; as long as those teaching university-level materials science don't even know 2 out of 3 of the list above...

I'm not saying it's the case here too, but sometimes these supposedly environmentally friendly measures end up doing more damage.

Between July 2008 and July 2009 we had a tax on air travel in this country (NL); applied on all tickets for flights starting in the Netherlands. The consequence was that a lot of people drove by car to Belgium or Germany and then got on a plane. Especially because a lot of people already live closer to those airports. The German airport Weeze got an increase of 300% on travelers from the Netherlands that year, making them the majority of travelers from that airport.

Oh, and for the treasury it didn't really work that well either; people departing from Germany and Belgium pay VAT on the stuff they buy there... in those countries. And when coming back, a lot of them would fill up their gas tank, because that was cheaper in Germany too... And just because they already had the car in Germany anyway, I bet a lot of them stocked up on liquor and cigarettes too to avoid some more Dutch taxes.

Summilux wrote:

Puppy wrote:Although the European Union is part of the issue because of Lead-free solder directive introduced in 2006. As said in wikipedia:

Repeated thermal cycling cause the formation of voids which tends to cause solder cracks. Lead-free solder can cause short life cycles of products, as well as planned obsolescence.

I'm okay with that.

In the grand scheme of things, reducing the poisoning of the environment is much more important than augmenting a computer's lifespan. (One could argue that having to replace electronic devices more quickly leads to greater environmental damage, but given the already appalling consumption patterns of the last decades, I don't buy the speculation that the Union's directive would worsen the overall situation.)

It's debatable whether RoHS actually reduced the poisoning of the environment, though.

Lead solder stays pretty well fixed even through improper disposal, the fluxes needed to work with RoHS solder are as toxic to workers as the lead was, or worse, and the additional disposal rate of RoHS equipment due to solder failure causes other nasty chemicals in electronics to leach into groundwater at a higher rate.

In other news, lead_org posted this comment on Reddit. I think I might buy the crap out of an X170 with something like the Surface 3's 10.8" 1920x1280 LCD and a TrackWrite keyboard if it happens, but we all know it probably won't happen. (Or, really, you could give it a Yoga hinge, and retract the keyboard back when you go past 180 degrees, even, so a Yoga 170?)

bhtooefr wrote:

Summilux wrote: In other news, lead_org posted this comment on Reddit.

Yep lead_org got expansif and added also that Retro (1) will have Mac's 13 retina screen and (2) x300-type keyboard. I looked at the calendar and April 1st is a bit away, but his tone brooked no argument.
Sounds interesting, gotta sleep it over -- Europe goes to sleep, over & out!

Puppy wrote:It would make sense, read this post in Lenovo forum We asked David Hill, Lenovo's Chief Design Officer, during a Periscope Q&A. Here are the highlights of what he said:

- I would love to release something like this for the ThinkPad's 25th Anniversary (2017)

Even though I have a goal of staying positive and supportive about the Retro project, I might consider leaning back in my chair at this point and.. Yaaaawn ..be a little bored. AFAIK, nothing has really happened after the queries last summer, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqAa_e ... u.be&t=810

David Hill: "If it was in the pipeline right now [context implies it is not], it might be a year from now [before it could actually be released], but I would love to release something like this for instance for the 25th anniversary [in 2017]. There are no commitments."

I have lost all remaining hope for this project at this point.

However, I still believe that we will see 3:2 or 4:3 aspect ratios in proper laptops at some point. Whether it will be in the 14-15.5 inch segment, where I would be a buyer, I am not so sure, because it looks mostly as if companies just want to do 2 in 1s or tablet+ designs at smaller sizes.

I believe that David Hill might be the man in the system that could potentially make this happen, but as he says, there are too many factors to take into account. This detail has probably been stated by me and others in this thread before, though.

If the product is good, it's worth waiting for you might say, but as more and more time passes by, and nothing happens, you automatically loose some of that enthusiasm you initially get when something like this is presented. In addition, people's needs, perspectives and views are constantly changing as the world around us changes, and what felt right and intriguing last summer might not be right 1-2 years from now. I'll be ready with my $3000+ when (if) the Retro Thinkpad comes for sale no matter what, but I suspect that a number of the initial enthusiasts probably fall off the wagon along the way.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote: Really? Adding lead was actually the workaround for a lot of things;
(...)

bhtooefr wrote: It's debatable whether RoHS actually reduced the poisoning of the environment, though.
(...)

There's always a flip side of the coin. Whilst lead alleviated some areas, it also hampered others. You are both right to nuance the matter, though, and I am grateful for your inputs.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:I'm not saying it's the case here too, but sometimes these supposedly environmentally friendly measures end up doing more damage.

I agree, and it often comes down to implementation...

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Between July 2008 and July 2009 we had a tax on air travel in this country (NL); applied on all tickets for flights starting in the Netherlands. The consequence was that a lot of people drove by car to Belgium or Germany and then got on a plane. (...)

... which your case illustrates perfectly. When there's a lack of concertation and a constraining measure is implemented in one zone, people will often seek less constraining zones to perform their deeds. The actions triggered by the Dutch government's decision were utterly predictable, that unilateral tax was just a dumb or populist (i.e. another shade of dumb) move from that government.

Norway Pad wrote: Even though I have a goal of staying positive and supportive about the Retro project, I might consider leaning back in my chair at this point and.. Yaaaawn ..be a little bored. AFAIK, nothing has really happened after the queries last summer, right?

D. Hill promised an open process, I guess that was yet another PR stunt where good faith was flushed down the toilets.

Many companies never learn, or rather, don't want to learn. They need to be taught the hard way; being crushed by the competition or, when appropriate, by the authorities.

tiorapatea wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqAa_e ... u.be&t=810
David Hill: "If it was in the pipeline right now [context implies it is not], it might be a year from now [before it could actually be released], but I would love to release something like this for instance for the 25th anniversary [in 2017]. There are no commitments."

This is the most unnerving part. From a company that had a clear record of good faith and transparency, I could perfectly take it. But coming from Lenovo which played the positive card a few months ago? That disgusts me.

tiorapatea wrote:However, I still believe that we will see 3:2 or 4:3 aspect ratios in proper laptops at some point.

But can we have a proper laptop without a proper keyboard, and can we have a proper keyboard without a 7-row non-island? I have my doubts.

But I have seriously come to wish HP would release a Business Classic laptop with their keyboard from a decade ago; back then it was a close second to IBM's. They'd just need to fit their trackpoint with a middle click, and that be quite nice for 2016.
I think we should tip them, just in case. Anyone knows an HP influencer we could contact?

Or actually, maybe we could call upon Dell. IIRC they did use trackpoints back in the day, and what's precious and could make the difference, is that the company is now privately owned. In their own words, they wanted to get away with the futile rentability over-pressures.

Really, as a satisfied T60 owner, my first choice would be to buy the direct descendent of this machine. But it looks like the current company owning the Thinkpad brand will never genuinely address my and others' needs, and will continually lack respect for its customers and its own brand. So screw Lenovo. They deserve to be tossed just like they tossed us. I'm willing to buy a machine from HP or Dell if they have more balls and can finally release a square-ish laptop featuring a Thinkpad-ish keyboard on the market.

tiorapatea wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqAa_e ... u.be&t=810

I wonder what people they attracted by going 16:9 or by deleting the 7th row.

More likely they are scared away by Lenovo's Ctrl - Fn position than a 7th row of keys that matches their desktop keyboard... yet they stuck to that. Why can't they stick to the other positive things?

But I have seriously come to wish HP would release a Business Classic laptop

This is really not very likely. Even though HP is spinning out its PC and printers divisions
into a separate business, there is just not the loyal core of HP users like the fans of the
old IBM Thinkpad.

Dell is doing its thing, but they seem to be happy just not hemorrhaging blood in their PC
business; they are innovating in their own way, but there is really no reason for them
to clone some Thinkpad DNA when they never had it to begin with.

Back when your T60 was new, it sold for $2800 or so, according to this review:
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... ics-specs/

Not very many laptops go for that these days; you can't expect to get that kind of
mechanical or display quality for $1000 or so in today's money.

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:I wonder what people they attracted by going 16:9 or by deleting the 7th row.

For example one of my friends who is an electrical engineering student. He despises anything that is not 16:9 and prefers the new keyboard over the old one as well. People like him come from cheap consumer notebooks (he had an Acer) who have grown up and realised how crappy these machines actually are. Of course, they don't have any recollection about tech in their pre-teen years and don't know about the wonders of 4:3 screens and proper keyboards. He's the type of person who follows "new is ALWAYS better" as if it were a religion.

bit_twiddler wrote:Back when your T60 was new, it sold for $2800 or so, according to this review:
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... ics-specs/

Not very many laptops go for that these days; you can't expect to get that kind of
mechanical or display quality for $1000 or so in today's money.

Excellent point. I cringed when people complained the P50 was quite expensive in my review, even though I clearly stated that is was the highest quality ThinkPad since the T60. It just goes to show that people do NOT put their money where their mouth is. That is why I honestly can't blame lenovo for going the cheap route and not being that enthusiastic about the retro.

IMHO there is no need to worry about the finances of Lenovo.
A real Classic Thinkpad would always be a success. (Apple demonstrated this on another level in the market.)

There quite a number of people, who would put their money where their mouth is,
after looking at all the replies in different forums during the last DECADE,
and especially the comments the replies to Mr. Hill's "Retro Thinkpad" blog posts.

Besides there would be the significant advertisement value, if only Lenovo would
release a Classic Thinkpad with workhorse qualities and perfect OS integration (preferably Linux).
Remember the the resonance in the press after the Retro blogs?

Have a nice day.

bit_twiddler wrote: This is really not very likely. Even though HP is spinning out its PC and printers divisions
into a separate business, there is just not the loyal core of HP users like the fans of the
old IBM Thinkpad.

Dell is doing its thing, but they seem to be happy just not hemorrhaging blood in their PC
business; they are innovating in their own way, but there is really no reason for them
to clone some Thinkpad DNA when they never had it to begin with.

Back when your T60 was new, it sold for $2800 or so, according to this review:
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... ics-specs/

Not very many laptops go for that these days; you can't expect to get that kind of
mechanical or display quality for $1000 or so in today's money.

Laptop makers are confronted with:
- Atrocious competition from both each other and different computing segments (phones, tablets).
- Ever blurrying differenciation (mainstream laptops, phones and tablets all look the same, with the same guts and features).
- Ever lowering prices.

I believe the timing is right to go upscale and carve a niche, it's the only way out of the rat race.
People pay when there's a value added, and this could be achieved for cheaper than ten years ago.

If you look at consumer computing, it is very clear that Apple is both the biggest trend setter and money maker; it's the only vendor that really stands out. All others have mostly followed and spent time erasing their differences. Idiots have been trying to copy Apple's design instead of being smarter and copy its business approach.

Now the market is ripe for non-contemporary designs - be they avant-garde or arrière-garde - fulfilling pressing ergonomic needs.

HP and Dell may not have Thinkpad in their DNA, but then again, the Thinkpad's own DNA has degenerated beyond recognition since it has been contaminated by the Chernobyl from China. So there's that.

Anyone, please, clone the crap out of Classic Thinkpads and you will be rewarded. By just doing that you will gain appreciable differentiation, new followers and additional orders. The icing on the cake is there's basically no R&D needed, all the salient features are already well defined and time tested.

You're probably right about the business model, but, apparently, neither of us run things.

You could pick up a T61p for a song, or have someone on this forum refurbish it for you.
They go for under $100 on ebay, but you have to look at items like that as parts. It
takes some TLC (tender loving care, not some kind of flash memory) to put together
a decent, reliable machine.

I've never had one, but I have a W500 that I use for Windows stuff and as a terminal
for Linux stuff because I like the screen and keyboard; you might find that a 64-bit
Core 2 Duo is quite adequate for what you're doing.

I'd stay away from motherboards with Nvidia chip sets, they had a durability issue in that era.

And, there is something called a Frankenpad, but I have no idea what that is...

Technically, FrankenPad refers to any ThinkPad that is assembled from an assortment of different models' parts, ala Frankenstein's monster.

However, it's often used to refer to a 15.0" 4:3 ThinkPad T60 or T60p chassis with a 14.1" 4:3 T61 or T61p motherboard installed. You'd do this to get the 1600x1200 or 2048x1536 FlexView displays on a T61p, really.

It's a pity that my computing requirements have grown to the point that I need >= 16GB of ram
and at least a Sandy Bridge or better CPU. Otherwise, I'd put together a FrankenPad, and
just ignore the nonsense that PC manufacturers are producing these days.

All comparisons with Apple end here;
Lenovo / Thinkpad is not a religion / cult, Apple is.
End of story.

Frankenpads are nice and all with the screens, but max. RAM is capped at... 8 GB(?) and battery life is also at pre-2011 levels, meaning; poor.

600X wrote:

bit_twiddler wrote:Back when your T60 was new, it sold for $2800 or so, according to this review:
http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... ics-specs/

Not very many laptops go for that these days; you can't expect to get that kind of
mechanical or display quality for $1000 or so in today's money.

Excellent point. I cringed when people complained the P50 was quite expensive in my review, even though I clearly stated that is was the highest quality ThinkPad since the T60. It just goes to show that people do NOT put their money where their mouth is. That is why I honestly can't blame lenovo for going the cheap route and not being that enthusiastic about the retro.

There is zero reason why a $15 more expensive screen and $1 more expensive keyboard would tag on a few hundred. We've seen thing like that before with Lenovo, when they asked about $350 more for the 14" 4:3 T61 compared to the 14" 16:10 T61; total nonsense. Still, there was a waiting list for that thing. And then they killed it because... didn't they say "too low demand"?