Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

Large picture files of Retro system may be posted here but please try to limit them to <200KB

display ratio prefered

4:3
37
51%
3:2
20
27%
16:10
15
21%
16:9
1
1%
 
Total votes: 73

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Summilux
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#91 Post by Summilux » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:57 pm

mydreamlaptop wrote: The installed infrastructure is all VGA. What is a laptop owner going to do, "encourage" all the venues they don't even know yet to all hire electricians to "upgrade" every single room that has a projector?
Yes. Let them know that your laptop is equipped with HDMI and DP ports, and that if they don't have projectors with such native capabilities, you would like them to provide an adapter for the presenters' computers.

If in 2015 a venue is hosting, say, 10 presenters per room and per month, you can bet the manager of this facility has been requested HDMI/DP capability more than once per conference.

Any half-competent manager would realise that it is irresponsible to let such demand grow without providing a satisfying solution. Because his/her job is to maximise the conference flow. Users before hardware.

Thus there are two obvious options:
1) Provide adapters on request or leave them permanently attached onto the VGA cables. Buy some spares from different manufacturers just in case.
2) Replace the old projectors if funds are available.
mydreamlaptop wrote: Then what are they going to put there? HDMI? DVI? DisplayPort? Thunderbolt? Which version? All of them? What if something else comes out? Long cables have to be extremely thick. Cost increases very quickly, and then there are issues ofamplifier/repeater/converter boxes being reqired... more and more potential weak links in the signal chain (pay more $$$ for reliability)
HDMI is the new VGA.

Checking the Apple line-up (which is the new Thinkpad), none of them have VGA ports. Asus laptops, including those with discrete graphics? None are fitted with VGA. All have HDMI ports.

The reality is that manufacturers, and end-users as a result, have moved on. And conference rooms have no choice but to follow suit.
You're not going to tell all these people that they should have bought a proper laptop with a built-in VGA port if they wanted to make a presentation.

A basic VGA to HDMI adapter costs less than 15€. A basic 10 metre HDMI can be had for 15 to 25€. It is certainly within the means of an institution to spend a dozen of euros per projector-equipped room to adapt to this reality. If they're too cheap for that, they certainly won't be seen as user-friendly and will lose both credibility and competitivity in the process. Any serious institution would want to avoid that.

Where do people prefer to work/present for: places that acknowledge current standards and get on with the times, or places that enforce retrograde connectivity? What does that tell prospective applicants/lecturers about those places' respective mentalities?

That's what stands behind the presence, or absence, of a little VGA-to-HDMI adapter.

And when a new standard replaces HDMI, well, people and conference rooms will have to adapt again. Just like they had to previously adapte from overhead projectors to video projectors.
bgx wrote: "i forget my adaptor".
"it is not the right adaptor"
"can you pass me ur adaptor?"
"the adaptor does not work".
Blame the conference room managers. They didn't do their job properly.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#92 Post by Bibin » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:43 pm

VGA->HDMI is not so simple as HDMI->VGA, and far, far from DVI->VGA. Going in that direction usually requires a power source since the tiny, tiny 5V provided by the VGA port is only intended to power an EDID EEPROM. That is an active conversion where the VGA signal must be sampled and quantized to the intended pixel clock, then sent over TMDS to the display.

Providing an HDMI to VGA adapter presents a similar problem, though it is still complicated. The DisplayPort / Thunderbolt adapters Apple will sell you have active electronics inside, and are powered by the port, unlike HDMI.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#93 Post by bgx » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:08 pm

sumilux, u miss the point.

If we had 1 digital standard, as vga was the analog standard for years, then the transitions would have been easy.

but we had dvi and hdmi in //.
then DP and hdmi in //.
then now usb C port and hdmi in //.

there is no standard. if these noobs of hdmi embrase usb C saying ok, we take it too - and at least let's make it one possibility, then hooray, we would have our standard, and then yes, i think everyone would propose it. (The lack of) de facto Standard is the problem.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#94 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:37 pm

Even universities that have newer projectors often opted to only put on a VGA cable, even if the projector has DP / HDMI. In bigger rooms, you even can't just fit a DP / HDMI cable to it yourself, if the projector is 4 meters off the floor and 8 meters from the front of the room. Let alone 30 meters..

Providing two cables will only lead to user confusion. Even lecturers with PHD's are often too ignorant to even send the projector it's native resolution.

1920x1080 through VGA isn't even the biggest problem. If output, cable and input are all high-quality, it's hard to tell the difference. But usually, the cable is a $2 one w/o ferrite rings or the output is totally bullocks. Quality of VGA input varies hugely too. Often, screens with both DVI and VGA input, have a low-quality input for VGA.

Not to mention institutions that didn't install graphics drivers on desktops. In the past it was the 60 Hz curse with CRT's, these days it's idiotic stuff like not being able to send 1680x1050 to a 22", but only 1600x1200 and other 4:3 resolutions.

I've seen university students that bemoaned their university laptop "not having HDMI... but similar, but differently shaped useless port" [DP], not knowing you can just plug in a DP > HDMI cable...
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#95 Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:30 pm

I will say that one problem with the digital standards is the length limits they have, after which they stop working... whereas VGA keeps working badly (horrible ghosting and such). That may be why it's dominant with projectors still, actually.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#96 Post by Dante of the Inferno » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:24 pm

Results for Survey #3 have been posted. Apparently, the vote has been split between Dual and Quad Core, but it was probably about as "split" as the 2:3 vs 3:4 vs 16:10 poll. The top 5 ports (in order) are USB A, full-size Ethernet, SD Card Reader, USB C, and full-size HDMI. Finally, 4 out of 5 voters don't want an optical drive or ultra-bay at all. It seems VGA and discs are have been deemed utterly obsolete, even to corporate professionals.

Lenovo states that over 9000(!) people have participated in Survey #1, with similar numbers for Surveys #2 and #3. This is a whopping 50% increase from Survey #2 (which in and of itself was a 50% increase from Survey #1). We're poised to break 10K votes for Survey #4 and make reach over 13K, but only if we keep spreading the word. Time for the final push Thinkpadders!

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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#97 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:22 am

Interesting. It seems that most people just don't realize that a DP++ can output HDMI, but not vice versa, so it's always better to have a DisplayPort than HDMI.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#98 Post by pianowizard » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:10 pm

dr_st wrote:Interesting. It seems that most people just don't realize that a DP++ can output HDMI, but not vice versa, so it's always better to have a DisplayPort than HDMI.
Most people simply have never heard of DisplayPort. Even Apple laptop users don't know what their video output interface (Mini DisplayPort) is called. When they finally hear the term "DisplayPort", they don't realize it's a proper term, but instead think it just means display port.

In terms of adaptability and highest resolution supported, DisplayPort > HDMI > DVI > VGA.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#99 Post by coolcat37 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:27 pm

Nigellus wrote:
mydreamlaptop wrote: Case in point: "Why you should give in to the chiclet keyboard"
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/why-you- ... d-keyboard
I found that article to be offensive.
Indeed. Especially the last phrase "OK, everyone. We’ve made our case here—it’s in your hands now. (Or is it?)" is smug and quite arrogant. Also the following:

"Q: Last question, and I deliver this one with a wink—are you getting rid of the TrackPoint?
A: No. We study how to keep improving TrackPoint, not how to remove it."

That was cynical and pure BS. They've removed the TrackPoints on some ThinkPads, and never improved it. The zero position flaw (see https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X ... -p/1004919) could've been solved by now, no?

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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#100 Post by bhtooefr » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:41 pm

Interestingly, the bluetooth keyboard's TrackPoint uses a different calibration algorithm - it calibrates on power-on, and that's it, any drift that happens is going to happen until it's shut off and back on. And, unlike the ThinkPad laptops, the TrackPoint controller isn't mounted at the stick, there's a 4-wire cable to the main controller, just like ancient ThinkPads.

Also, it depends on what version of HDMI and what features the DVI port offers, as far as adaptability and resolution - a DVI port can include passive VGA (which neither HDMI nor DisplayPort can carry), and dual-link DVI has higher resolution than earlier versions of HDMI.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#101 Post by pianowizard » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:09 am

bhtooefr wrote:Also, it depends on what version of HDMI and what features the DVI port offers, as far as adaptability and resolution - a DVI port can include passive VGA (which neither HDMI nor DisplayPort can carry), and dual-link DVI has higher resolution than earlier versions of HDMI.
Yes, I was aware that pre-1.3 HDMI goes up to only 2048x1152 @ 60 Hz, which is even lower than VGA's max resolution. My above ranking considered each interface at its best, to keep things simple. I actually did start typing one more sentence to point out this pre-1.3 caveat, but then realized that if I did, I would also have to include other caveats such as DP 1.1 vs. 1.2, dual-link vs. single-link DVI, certain VGA outputs being able to exceed 2048x1536, etc. I actually found out about this last point only two days ago, when I hooked up my Panasonic CF-Y9's VGA output to my new Crossover 404K 3840x2160 monitor. It couldn't do 3840x2160 of course, but it did give 2560x1440 @ 60 Hz.

Moreover, in the context of this survey, there's no need to consider different versions of HDMI because if this Classic Thinkpad does become a reality and if is equipped with HDMI output, it would no doubt be 4K-capable.

Regarding active versus passive. With active DP-to-VGA or HDMI-to-VGA adapters being so cheap (well under $10 shipped on eBay), few people would be concerned about the lack of passive VGA signal.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#102 Post by mydreamlaptop » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:13 am

dr_st wrote:
mydreamlaptop wrote:... would you really trust your presentation to a "very cheap" adapter containg active electronics which "generally" works very well?
Yes. And if you think it's a problem, then do keep in mind that the sh*tty VGA cables/connectors and the crappy projectors themselves are about 10 times more likely to fail / cause issues than those active adapters. And this is from experience. You are really presenting a non-issue as an issue here.
mydreamlaptop wrote:Somebody will "borrow" the adapter.
There are two ways around it. You can attach them permanently using a fairly simple security device (I've seen it done), or you can carry one of your own (most people carry power bricks and external mice, it's not a big deal to carry a small adapter).

Don't get me wrong - I would like to have VGA if possible. It is certainly easier to not have to use adapters. But if tradeoffs are required, then in today's world, I would rather lose VGA than most other ports (Network/USB3/DP).
Damaged VGA cables don't completely fail – at first one component of the color signal might go out, causing e.g. pinkish/bluish color cast. The show can still go on. The owner would have to repair it eventually but in the heat of the moment, an off-color presentation is usually acceptable.

Whereas, a damaged digital cable just stops working.

Crappy projectors can die for any reason. What signal the projector takes is beside the point.

Security device: OK, let's say you have a Mini-DisplayPort → VGA adapter permanently attached to your projector setup. Somebody comes along with a VGA laptop (or HDMI or Mini-DVI or anything else). Now what?

Carry your own: Of course it's not a big deal to carry a small adapter. It's a big deal to lose a small adapter. It is a weak link – a single point of failure. Forget your adapter and you're dead in the water in front of many/important people.
None of those other things you carry are absolutely needed in a presentation. Forgot your power brick? Your ThinkPad has all-day battery life, you'll be fine for a 1-hour presentation.
Forgot your mouse? Come on, your ThinkPad has a touchpad AND a trackpoint.

Tradeoffs? Not really. There is plenty of room for Ethernet/USB3/DP/VGA on a laptop sized 13 inches and up. The only reasons not to have ALL of these ports are extreme thinness and/or cost-cutting. If a product doesn't meet my needs, then I don't buy it. Simple.
bgx wrote:been fine?

"i forget my adaptor".
"it is not the right adaptor"
"can you pass me ur adaptor?"
"the adaptor does not work".

i would prefer to avoid this problems. they can built the adaptor in the computer (i read it s what they ve done in the X250) that would be great.

And usb C with DP pathtrough and possibly thunderbolt - the future de facto standard i hope.

=> well, i read here a bad news:
"The only feature of DisplayPort that won’t work over the Type-C Alternate Mode is Dual-Mode DisplayPort (DP++), which means you’ll need to use active adapters if you want to plug the Type-C connector into an HDMI, DVI, or VGA socket."

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/19 ... every-hole
Agreed. The fruity company changed their adapter port way too many times.
Actually witnessing those users' troubles far too many times is part of the reason why I insist on native VGA in a laptop.

I was optimistic about DP over usb-C at first but now it looks less and less promising.
The ability to use a variety of completely passive adapters for all the major display standards was one of the great advantages of mini-DP++.
bgx wrote:This survey got interesting values:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/116iN7P ... wanalytics

16:10 => 44%
3:2+4:3 => 40% (break down: 25% for 3:2 and 15% for 4:3).

Could realisticaly be close to what David got.

for the fun, 16:9 => <11%
That would make sense. Reddit is an extremely popular site, so if a larger percentage of Redditors prefer 16:10 over the other aspect ratios then it's likely to win. Oh well.
Summilux wrote:Yes. Let them know that your laptop is equipped with HDMI and DP ports, and that if they don't have projectors with such native capabilities, you would like them to provide an adapter for the presenters' computers.

If in 2015 a venue is hosting, say, 10 presenters per room and per month, you can bet the manager of this facility has been requested HDMI/DP capability more than once per conference.

Any half-competent manager would realise that it is irresponsible to let such demand grow without providing a satisfying solution. Because his/her job is to maximise the conference flow. Users before hardware.

Thus there are two obvious options:
1) Provide adapters on request or leave them permanently attached onto the VGA cables. Buy some spares from different manufacturers just in case.
2) Replace the old projectors if funds are available.
Telling others how to spend their money? Not all institutions are operated on a for-profit basis. The lead time before a presentation is nothing compared to the lead time of a building renovation.

I can decide what laptop I buy. I can't decide what projector equipment other people buy. It would take a majority of people to influence them.
Summilux wrote:HDMI is the new VGA.
Then there will be both HDMI and VGA for at least 10 years.
Summilux wrote: Checking the Apple line-up (which is the new Thinkpad), none of them have VGA ports. Asus laptops, including those with discrete graphics? None are fitted with VGA. All have HDMI ports.

The reality is that manufacturers, and end-users as a result, have moved on. And conference rooms have no choice but to follow suit.
You're not going to tell all these people that they should have bought a proper laptop with a built-in VGA port if they wanted to make a presentation.

A basic VGA to HDMI adapter costs less than 15€. A basic 10 metre HDMI can be had for 15 to 25€. It is certainly within the means of an institution to spend a dozen of euros per projector-equipped room to adapt to this reality. If they're too cheap for that, they certainly won't be seen as user-friendly and will lose both credibility and competitivity in the process. Any serious institution would want to avoid that.

Where do people prefer to work/present for: places that acknowledge current standards and get on with the times, or places that enforce retrograde connectivity? What does that tell prospective applicants/lecturers about those places' respective mentalities?

That's what stands behind the presence, or absence, of a little VGA-to-HDMI adapter.

And when a new standard replaces HDMI, well, people and conference rooms will have to adapt again. Just like they had to previously adapte from overhead projectors to video projectors.

Blame the conference room managers. They didn't do their job properly.
Did the fruity company ever use VGA ports? I've never seen a laptop from them with one.

Usually someone who uses a laptop without VGA for presentations carries an adapter for VGA. All the time they use it normally it is fine, but the one time they forget it, it creates an incident.
Personally I would avoid laptops manufactured without a VGA for now until projectors adapt. During the transition to HDMI (if it even happens), I would look for a laptop that has both VGA and full-size HDMI.
jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Even universities that have newer projectors often opted to only put on a VGA cable, even if the projector has DP / HDMI. In bigger rooms, you even can't just fit a DP / HDMI cable to it yourself, if the projector is 4 meters off the floor and 8 meters from the front of the room. Let alone 30 meters..
Not to mention bureaucratic processes...
Dante of the Inferno wrote:The top 5 ports (in order) are USB A, full-size Ethernet, SD Card Reader, USB C, and full-size HDMI. Finally, 4 out of 5 voters don't want an optical drive or ultra-bay at all. It seems VGA and discs are have been deemed utterly obsolete, even to corporate professionals.
No it's not. For all we know VGA could have been #6. Seeing how full-size HDMI made it to #5. Finally, there is no evidence that all these voters are corporate professionals. These surveys are open to any and all interested persons on the Internet.
pianowizard wrote:
dr_st wrote:Interesting. It seems that most people just don't realize that a DP++ can output HDMI, but not vice versa, so it's always better to have a DisplayPort than HDMI.
Most people simply have never heard of DisplayPort. Even Apple laptop users don't know what their video output interface (Mini DisplayPort) is called. When they finally hear the term "DisplayPort", they don't realize it's a proper term, but instead think it just means display port.

In terms of adaptability and highest resolution supported, DisplayPort > HDMI > DVI > VGA.
It's not about adaptability. It's about being able to immediately make a presentation on a big screen TV when you don't have an adapter. In terms of native cables that are easy to find, projectors will have VGA cables already attached, and HDTVs will have full-size HDMI cables already attached. Why isn't Mini-HDMI preferred? It's smaller and allows more room for other ports on a laptop. But it requires a specific cable that isn't very common.
Full-size HDMI has the advantage of ubiquity. Most HDTVs have HD video sources (DVR, blue ray, game console, etc) connected with a HDMI cable, which you can then use to plug in your laptop.
When you have a room full of people for your presentation, the last thing you want is to make them wait while you try to get the correct cable/adapter.

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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#103 Post by dr_st » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:28 am

I do see your point. While I still believe that failure of digital cables/adapters is a non-issue (out of all the possible points of failure, they are the least likely, in my experience), but their availability certainly can be an issue.

Full-size HDMI and VGA are not the most space-efficient ports (at least they're not as bad as DVI), but, yes, they are the most likely to cover, between the two of them, 99% of the scenarios where you may need to project to an external device, without requiring any non-standard cable / adapter.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#104 Post by sysiphus » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:43 am

mydreamlaptop wrote: Did the fruity company ever use VGA ports? I've never seen a laptop from them with one.
Yep, way back when...the "Lombard" and "Pismo" G3-based PowerBooks did. Quite unlike the G4 models that followed, they had an impressive modular design too, with socketed processors (allowing a 3rd party upgrade to a G4 later on), swappable bays that could take dual batteries in place of an optical drive, a hard drive caddy, ZIP drive etc, and could hot-swap batteries while the computer was in "sleep" mode. The keyboards popped out by pulling spring-loaded tabs, and pretty much every component was easily accessible underneath. Very slick, and totally unlike every portable they've put out since.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#105 Post by Bibin » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:44 pm

The early PowerBook G4 Titanium had a VGA port until the 867MHz model introduced a DVI-I port, which was there until the Unibody MacBook Pros - a brief period of sweet compatibility.
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Re: Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#106 Post by sysiphus » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:54 pm

Bibin wrote:The early PowerBook G4 Titanium had a VGA port until the 867MHz model introduced a DVI-I port, which was there until the Unibody MacBook Pros - a brief period of sweet compatibility.
Ahh, I can't believe I'd forgotten about the early TiBooks--had a 667mhz model for a short time. Pity they've thrown full-sized video ports out the window now. I was in a meeting this spring where everyone else had a Mac laptop, and nobody had the appropriate adapters, so they got learn to use Linux and a pointing stick since I was the only one who could interface with the projector :wink:
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