Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

Large picture files of Retro system may be posted here but please try to limit them to <200KB

display ratio prefered

4:3
37
51%
3:2
20
27%
16:10
15
21%
16:9
1
1%
 
Total votes: 73

Message
Author
bgx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:56 am
Location: rennes, france

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#61 Post by bgx » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:21 pm

bhtooefr wrote:DisplayPort is definitely around - things that are oriented towards professional applications have it basically guaranteed, partially because it has higher resolution support than HDMI and DVI due to running faster. (DisplayPort 1.3 supports 25.92 Gbps (enough for 5120x2880 @ 60 Hz), contrast with HDMI 2.0's 14.4 Gbps (enough for 4096x2160 @ 60 Hz) and dual-link DVI's 7.92 Gbps (enough for 2560x1600 @ 60 Hz).) And, it's supplanted FPD-Link as the standard internal protocol for LCDs in laptops and tablets (there are still a few older designs around using FPD-Link, but anything new is using Embedded DisplayPort).

HDMI is dominant in consumer multimedia, though, as VGA hadn't taken off for whatever reason (probably not enough of a jump over component to justify a compatibility break), everything high-end was still using component, and HDMI added some things to the DVI protocol that made the movie studios happier (HDCP, namely). (I also suspect that both VGA and DVI suffered in the multimedia space due to having screw-down connectors, which have been avoided for quite a long time in that space, except for coax (which predates all the connectors for consumer device video inputs into TVs).)

Conversely, in computing, DVI had backwards compatibility with VGA (which HDMI didn't) and support for dual-link (when HDMI had the same bit-rate as single-link DVI), so there wasn't really a reason to put HDMI ports on desktops (except for some intended for multimedia applications) - if you needed to connect to a TV, you could get a passive adapter and just feed that TV from the DVI port. Laptops did have a need for a smaller port than DVI, but there was often only room for one port considering the legacy ports that had to stay around for a while (modem ports, parallel and/or serial ports, that kind of thing), and VGA was critical for use with business projectors (which rarely had any digital input), so nothing digital really took off for a while (except on Macs, where Apple did the whole "screw the legacy connectors, we're doing our own thing!" thing with Mini-DVI) outside of desktops and docking stations. Also, there were some very high resolution LCDs (IBM T220/T221, Apple 30" Cinema Display and other similar displays) that needed more than HDMI could deliver (although, to be fair, the T220/T221 needed more than even dual-link DVI could deliver, which leads into the next part), so DVI became more cemented as the computing standard, HDMI as the multimedia standard.

IBM ended up developing Digital Packetized Video Link as a way to try to drive the T221 with less bandwidth, and it eventually got used as a low-power embedded standard. VESA then took that standard and used it as the basis for DisplayPort, which was also free of some of the royalties that applied to the TMDS-based protocols such as DVI and HDMI. And, DisplayPort was meant as both an internal and external interface - read: cost reduction, as the same hardware could drive a laptop panel and an external panel.

Then, consumer multimedia-oriented laptops started getting bigger, legacy ports fell off, and they started sprouting HDMI ports because multimedia. Conversely, business-oriented laptops started sprouting DisplayPort ports. Apple adopted DisplayPort big time (with a mini connector, too), probably because when they did it, their high-end applications weren't the "play your DVDs from your laptop" applications, but rather the "do professional stuff in Photoshop or Final Cut Pro" applications. And, here we are. (Interestingly, my Mac has two Thunderbolt ports and an HDMI port, though...)

Also, as an aside, Mini DisplayPort is getting some traction outside of Apple's ecosystem, partially because Apple's ecosystem is simply big enough that there's economies of scale and a large enough installed base to use it. Conversely, the small HDMI variants (Type C and D) aren't anywhere nearly as well-adopted - I mean, I've got a tablet with HDMI Type D, but the only place to really get cables is Monoprice.
as i said elsewhere. let s hope that usb C will be the next de facto standard of connection - driving signal in any of VGA/HDMI/DP X.X version, the highest possible by both parties. That's why i hope the TP classic will get at least a Thunderbolt usb C cable, driving all that for future profness.

jcvjcvjcvjcv
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#62 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:37 am

Well, with the absent royalties for DP manufacturers can just put mini and fullsize DP on monitors and get away with only including one cable; full DP to mini DP. Like Dell is doing currently.

Although to be fair to Dell; they also include a DVI cable.
W520
T61

lead_org
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#63 Post by lead_org » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:53 am

it seems lot of people are offering their kidney to Lenovo for the perfect ThinkPad Retro. :)
Current ThinkPad: T430u, T430s, X1 Carbon, X1, X230t, X220t, X230, X220, X201t, W520, W701ds, T500, T420 and many more

bhtooefr
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1371
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: Newark, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#64 Post by bhtooefr » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:55 am

The P2314Hs that my client orders come with power, USB (for the hub), VGA, and DisplayPort cables. They've got a DVI port on them, but no cable.

As far as USB-C Alternate Modes, that really is the way to go in the future. It was specifically intended to run DisplayPort over the connector, I believe it can run a single TMDS link (HDMI) just like DisplayPort++ can, and Thunderbolt 3 is going to be a USB-C Alternate Mode rather than using a Mini DisplayPort connector.
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

jcvjcvjcvjcv
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#65 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:25 am

bhtooefr wrote:The P2314Hs that my client orders come with power, USB (for the hub), VGA, and DisplayPort cables. They've got a DVI port on them, but no cable.
Lol, a VGA cable Anno 2015

I'm mainly into U-serie, not the P. My U3014 came with DP <> mDP and DVI-DL cables, besides ofc. a USB 3.0 and power.
W520
T61

mydreamlaptop
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:18 pm
Location: Kailua, Oahu, HI

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#66 Post by mydreamlaptop » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:54 am

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:
bhtooefr wrote:The P2314Hs that my client orders come with power, USB (for the hub), VGA, and DisplayPort cables. They've got a DVI port on them, but no cable.
Lol, a VGA cable Anno 2015
Lol, a keyboard Anno 2015


... Just because some technology is old doesn't mean it's useless.

dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 6883
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#67 Post by dr_st » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:16 pm

Well, VGA is close to useless. LCDs are digital in nature. All modern computers have a plethora of digital outputs. The only reason to have a VGA port on a monitor is to connect to ancient computers. The only reason to have a VGA port on a machine is to connect to ancient analog projectors.

Given that active DP-->VGA adapters are very cheap, small and generally work very well, it is totally possible to get by without a native VGA port.
Last edited by dr_st on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

ajkula66
SuperUserGeorge
SuperUserGeorge
Posts: 15971
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:28 am
Location: Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#68 Post by ajkula66 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:20 pm

dr_st wrote:Well, VGA is close to useless.
You'd be very surprised with the majority of corporate presentation rooms in NYC, then...
Given that active DP-->VGA adapters are very cheap, small and generally work very well, it is totally possible to get by without a native VGA port.
My understanding - which may very well be incorrect so feel free to correct me - is that the Skylake platform will be incapable of transmitting *any* analog video signal.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

AARP club members:A31p, T43pSF

Abused daily: T61p

PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 6883
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#69 Post by dr_st » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:26 pm

ajkula66 wrote:My understanding - which may very well be incorrect so feel free to correct me - is that the Skylake platform will be incapable of transmitting *any* analog video signal.
I think your understanding is correct, however as I said, those adapters are active. They contain a DAC from DP to VGA. Similar adapters exist between HDMI and VGA.
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

pianowizard
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 8408
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:07 am
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Contact:

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#70 Post by pianowizard » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:13 pm

ajkula66 wrote:You'd be very surprised with the majority of corporate presentation rooms in NYC, then...
The same is true for projectors at universities and convention centers, not just in NYC but around the world. Some may have HDMI or DisplayPort, but all are guaranteed to have VGA. These days I travel with laptops that lack VGA outputs, and so I often have to borrow someone else's VGA-equipped laptop on the spot for my PowerPoint presentation.

Regarding this survey, Lenovo should not have included an aspect ratio that it's already determined not to adopt (i.e. 4:3). If the only options had been 3:2, 16:10 and 16:9, 3:2 would have won. I suspect Lenovo purposely included 4:3 to split the tallscreen camp in half, so that 16:10 would win.
HP Pavilion x2 12 (Core M3-6Y30, 1920x1280, 3.14 lb); Microsoft Surface 3 (Atom x7-Z8700, 1920x1280, 2.0 lb)
Dell OptiPlex 5040 SFF (Core i5-6600); HP 8300 Elite minitower (Core i7-3770)
Acer T272HUL; Crossover 404K; Dell U2715H, U2711, P2416D; Monoprice 10734; QNIX QHD2410R; Seiki Pro SM40UNP

600X
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:31 am
Location: Burlington, NC

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#71 Post by 600X » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:54 pm

pianowizard wrote:Regarding this survey, Lenovo should not have included an aspect ratio that it's already determined not to adopt (i.e. 4:3). If the only options had been 3:2, 16:10 and 16:9, 3:2 would have won. I suspect Lenovo purposely included 4:3 to split the tallscreen camp in half, so that 16:10 would win.
Considering how manipulative most lines were phrased, I wouldn't be surprised.
Daily: E7440
ThinkPads: 600X (i3), A31p (FlexView), X41, T43, T60 (FlexView), T61p (4:3), R61 (QXGA), X301 (AFFS), W500, X220t, X1

Summilux
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Paris (Latin Europe)

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#72 Post by Summilux » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:25 pm

ajkula66 wrote: You'd be very surprised with the majority of corporate presentation rooms in NYC, then...
Dr_st is right: technologically speaking, VGA has become irrelevant. A thing of the past.

It still has its uses, like the parallel port, when dealing with legacy hardware. But no new monitor or projector will count on VGA to deliver cutting edge performance.

IMHO it has little justification on a computer where space is counted. Better have institutions, where VGA is still a thing, permanently mount an adapter onto their old hardware.
Deathwisher
T60 2007-FSG (stolen)
X220 4287-CTO

Summilux
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Paris (Latin Europe)

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#73 Post by Summilux » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:29 pm

pianowizard wrote:If the only options had been 3:2, 16:10 and 16:9, 3:2 would have won. I suspect Lenovo purposely included 4:3 to split the tallscreen camp in half, so that 16:10 would win.
Agreed. But even more honest would have been to solely pit 3:2 against 16:10.
No classic user in their right mind would ask for a 16:9 and Lenovo wasn't prepared to offer 4:3, so they could have ditched both options altogether.
Deathwisher
T60 2007-FSG (stolen)
X220 4287-CTO

bgx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:56 am
Location: rennes, france

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#74 Post by bgx » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:41 pm

Let s be realistic.

if we want a machine out fast, 13-14" 16:10 is probably easier to get than 13-14" 3:2.
David may play us, but I think complaining here and there may help in the long run.

My hope:
first machine 16:10 in 2016, it is a success. then we can see a reboot of X/T/W x70 3:2 in 2017.

jcvjcvjcvjcv
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#75 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:24 pm

pianowizard wrote:
ajkula66 wrote:You'd be very surprised with the majority of corporate presentation rooms in NYC, then...
The same is true for projectors at universities and convention centers, not just in NYC but around the world. Some may have HDMI or DisplayPort, but all are guaranteed to have VGA. These days I travel with laptops that lack VGA outputs, and so I often have to borrow someone else's VGA-equipped laptop on the spot for my PowerPoint presentation.

Regarding this survey, Lenovo should not have included an aspect ratio that it's already determined not to adopt (i.e. 4:3). If the only options had been 3:2, 16:10 and 16:9, 3:2 would have won. I suspect Lenovo purposely included 4:3 to split the tallscreen camp in half, so that 16:10 would win.
Europe's most favorite government (the EU...) helped with keeping VGA around by imposing a 14% import tax on monitors with DVI. It was supposed to help European manufacturers. In reality a lot of monitors got imported that lacked DVI and some others opened up facilities to "open the box, add DVI port, close box". That stupid tax rule is I think THE cause that we've had this ridiculous abundance of TFT's with only VGA input.

Taiwan petitioned the WTO and they in turn forced the EU to ditch that stupid tax.

I'm not sure on the conspiracy regarding the aspect ratio question, but I'm pretty sure 3:2 + 4:3 > 16:10 indeed. Too bad they didn't give a bar graph result for that question...
Last edited by jcvjcvjcvjcv on Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
W520
T61

jcvjcvjcvjcv
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#76 Post by jcvjcvjcvjcv » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:32 pm

bgx wrote:Let s be realistic.

if we want a machine out fast, 13-14" 16:10 is probably easier to get than 13-14" 3:2.
David may play us, but I think complaining here and there may help in the long run.

My hope:
first machine 16:10 in 2016, it is a success. then we can see a reboot of X/T/W x70 3:2 in 2017.
Why would we want a half-baked one fast instead of a good one somewhat later?

After all these years of stupid 16:9 only, who cares about another few months?

Also; the Chromebook Pixel includes a 2560x1700 screen and is produced as we speak. Not that I know what contracts Google has for these screens, but it should be possible for Lenovo to obtain these panels too.

The same can be said about 13.3" 16:10 2560x1600 of course, as Apple includes that in the MacBook Pro Retina 13".

More to the point; there is no good reason why they don't already have a Thinkpad with a decent screen.
W520
T61

bgx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:56 am
Location: rennes, france

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#77 Post by bgx » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:20 pm

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:
bgx wrote:Let s be realistic.

if we want a machine out fast, 13-14" 16:10 is probably easier to get than 13-14" 3:2.
David may play us, but I think complaining here and there may help in the long run.

My hope:
first machine 16:10 in 2016, it is a success. then we can see a reboot of X/T/W x70 3:2 in 2017.
Why would we want a half-baked one fast instead of a good one somewhat later?

After all these years of stupid 16:9 only, who cares about another few months?

Also; the Chromebook Pixel includes a 2560x1700 screen and is produced as we speak. Not that I know what contracts Google has for these screens, but it should be possible for Lenovo to obtain these panels too.

The same can be said about 13.3" 16:10 2560x1600 of course, as Apple includes that in the MacBook Pro Retina 13".

More to the point; there is no good reason why they don't already have a Thinkpad with a decent screen.
chromebook pixel is 12.85". does not seem to be the prefered dimension. I think below 13.3" wont be happening for this one according to chart (sadly - would be perfect for me).

the MBP 13.3" 16:10 would fit perfectly the bill. Dont know about 14" 16:10 though.

The hype is here. if something happens it wont be in 2 years. I hope we will have a first attempt in the right direction, success, then a full catalogue later on with even better options. We should play both along - be lenient for the short term, but still speak our voices for the long run.

dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 6883
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#78 Post by dr_st » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:04 am

I must have missed it. Can someone point me to the link where it was said that 16:10 has won the aspect ratio poll?
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

Summilux
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Paris (Latin Europe)

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#79 Post by Summilux » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:23 am

bgx wrote: Chromebook pixel is 12.85". Does not seem to be the prefered dimension. I think below 13.3" won't be happening for this one according to chart (sadly - would be perfect for me).
Yeah well that's 32.639 cm vs 33.909 cm respectively. Doesn't make much of a difference.
bgx wrote:We should play both along - be lenient for the short term, but still speak our voices for the long run.
We've been voicing our opinion for years and it fell in death ears. Until today, that is, when Lenovo realised their strategy of not-listening-to-devoted-users didn't work.
Deathwisher
T60 2007-FSG (stolen)
X220 4287-CTO

Summilux
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:02 am
Location: Paris (Latin Europe)

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#80 Post by Summilux » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:24 am

dr_st wrote:I must have missed it. Can someone point me to the link where it was said that 16:10 has won the aspect ratio poll?
It's in the latest blog post, where D. Hill mentions the screen sizes: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... -the-hood/
16:10 aspect ratio was also significantly preferred.
Deathwisher
T60 2007-FSG (stolen)
X220 4287-CTO

mydreamlaptop
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:18 pm
Location: Kailua, Oahu, HI

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#81 Post by mydreamlaptop » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:17 am

dr_st wrote:Well, VGA is close to useless. LCDs are digital in nature. All modern computers have a plethora of digital outputs. The only reason to have a VGA port on a monitor is to connect to ancient computers. The only reason to have a VGA port on a machine is to connect to ancient analog projectors.

Given that active DP-->VGA adapters are very cheap, small and generally work very well, it is totally possible to get by without a native VGA port.
... would you really trust your presentation to a "very cheap" adapter containg active electronics which "generally" works very well?
Summilux wrote:
ajkula66 wrote: You'd be very surprised with the majority of corporate presentation rooms in NYC, then...
Dr_st is right: technologically speaking, VGA has become irrelevant. A thing of the past.

It still has its uses, like the parallel port, when dealing with legacy hardware. But no new monitor or projector will count on VGA to deliver cutting edge performance.

IMHO it has little justification on a computer where space is counted. Better have institutions, where VGA is still a thing, permanently mount an adapter onto their old hardware.
^^Somebody will "borrow" the adapter.

I don't know what it's like in Israel or France, but here in the US VGA is a defacto standard.
Pretty much everybody uses it and it would be rude/impractical to try and influence them. Even if a projector has HDMI it usually isn't even connected to anything... The installed infrastructure is all VGA. What is a laptop owner going to do, "encourage" all the venues they don't even know yet to all hire electricians to "upgrade" every single room that has a projector?
Then what are they going to put there? HDMI? DVI? DisplayPort? Thunderbolt? Which version? All of them? What if something else comes out? Long cables have to be extremely thick. Cost increases very quickly, and then there are issues ofamplifier/repeater/converter boxes being reqired... more and more potential weak links in the signal chain (pay more $$$ for reliability)

Now that's not to say digital isn't worth it. I'm actually typing this on a monitor connected throught the DP port right now. I can interconnect all my own equipment with the latest digital standards. I can buy my own adapters if necessary, connect them once, and they stay there, safe from the use and abuses of travel.

There is a difference between spending some $$ myself to make my own equipment talk to each other, and interfacing with the messy, cheap, hey can i borrow your adapter oops i lost it real world.
jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:
pianowizard wrote: The same is true for projectors at universities and convention centers, not just in NYC but around the world. Some may have HDMI or DisplayPort, but all are guaranteed to have VGA. These days I travel with laptops that lack VGA outputs, and so I often have to borrow someone else's VGA-equipped laptop on the spot for my PowerPoint presentation.

Regarding this survey, Lenovo should not have included an aspect ratio that it's already determined not to adopt (i.e. 4:3). If the only options had been 3:2, 16:10 and 16:9, 3:2 would have won. I suspect Lenovo purposely included 4:3 to split the tallscreen camp in half, so that 16:10 would win.
Europe's most favorite government (the EU...) helped with keeping VGA around by imposing a 14% import tax on monitors with DVI. It was supposed to help European manufacturers. In reality a lot of monitors got imported that lacked DVI and some others opened up facilities to "open the box, add DVI port, close box". That stupid tax rule is I think THE cause that we've had this ridiculous abundance of TFT's with only VGA input.

Taiwan petitioned the WTO and they in turn forced the EU to ditch that stupid tax.

I'm not sure on the conspiracy regarding the aspect ratio question, but I'm pretty sure 3:2 + 4:3 > 16:10 indeed. Too bad they didn't give a bar graph result for that question...
Well I guess that explains those stupid 1920x1080 digital monitors with 1 and only 1 analog input... Ow my eyes, my eyes!!!
The resolution is far more than VGA was intended to drive and I can totally understand why someone subjected to that kind of torture might develop a dislike for VGA.

But projectors are a totally different beast than desktop monitors. Monitors show small text at high resolutions to one person for long periods of time. Projectors, on the other hand, use low resolutions like 1024x768, presentations use very large text and are viewed for relatively short times from quite far away. At this resolution a digital interconnect has no visible advantage, but has the downside of slow adoption due to installation costs/risks of signal loss at greater cable lengths.
Summilux wrote:
dr_st wrote:I must have missed it. Can someone point me to the link where it was said that 16:10 has won the aspect ratio poll?
It's in the latest blog post, where D. Hill mentions the screen sizes: http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... -the-hood/
16:10 aspect ratio was also significantly preferred.
What does that even mean? What is the hypothesis being proved/disproved? Even a small number can be "significant" if you use the right statistical test. I would agree that this seems suspect.

Here's my guess: 4:3 is very possible but it obviously would cost more. David Hill's bosses in Beijing need actual numbers on how many people are serious and how much they would seriously be willing to pay in order to justify this cost. Hence the suggestive language in the survey, and getting lead_org to test the waters about a deposit before announcing it officially. Because let's face it, this is the internet and people can say anything. You don't actually know until they reveal their true preferences by paying actual money.

dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 6883
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#82 Post by dr_st » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:01 am

mydreamlaptop wrote:... would you really trust your presentation to a "very cheap" adapter containg active electronics which "generally" works very well?
Yes. And if you think it's a problem, then do keep in mind that the sh*tty VGA cables/connectors and the crappy projectors themselves are about 10 times more likely to fail / cause issues than those active adapters. And this is from experience. You are really presenting a non-issue as an issue here.
mydreamlaptop wrote:Somebody will "borrow" the adapter.
There are two ways around it. You can attach them permanently using a fairly simple security device (I've seen it done), or you can carry one of your own (most people carry power bricks and external mice, it's not a big deal to carry a small adapter).

Don't get me wrong - I would like to have VGA if possible. It is certainly easier to not have to use adapters. But if tradeoffs are required, then in today's world, I would rather lose VGA than most other ports (Network/USB3/DP).
Last edited by dr_st on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Current: X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 1952-F76, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad
Past: Z61t 9440-A23, T60 2623-D3U, X32 2884-M5U

laowai
Sophomore Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: Beijing China

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#83 Post by laowai » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 am

mydreamlaptop wrote:Here's my guess: 4:3 is very possible but it obviously would cost more. David Hill's bosses in Beijing need actual numbers on how many people are serious and how much they would seriously be willing to pay in order to justify this cost. Hence the suggestive language in the survey, and getting lead_org to test the waters about a deposit before announcing it officially. Because let's face it, this is the internet and people can say anything. You don't actually know until they reveal their true preferences by paying actual money.
Possible, would cost more, and it would probably be seen as a bigger risk and therefore require more finagling to make it happen.

I would much rather prefer to see all other requirements met and they slap in an easy-to-get 16:10 or 3:2 screen. It's better than the current garbage and that alone is a big step up. A 4:3 would probably be retro II, following demand after a successful retro I

bhtooefr
ThinkPadder
ThinkPadder
Posts: 1371
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: Newark, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#84 Post by bhtooefr » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:41 am

Keep in mind that Apple's laptops haven't had VGA ports since 2002, and people have just used adapters and been fine.

Really, projectors are actually holding back the adoption of digital video standards and making things worse for when you do have a monitor you want to plug in.
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

bgx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:56 am
Location: rennes, france

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#85 Post by bgx » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:24 am

been fine?

"i forget my adaptor".
"it is not the right adaptor"
"can you pass me ur adaptor?"
"the adaptor does not work".

i would prefer to avoid this problems. they can built the adaptor in the computer (i read it s what they ve done in the X250) that would be great.

And usb C with DP pathtrough and possibly thunderbolt - the future de facto standard i hope.

=> well, i read here a bad news:
"The only feature of DisplayPort that won’t work over the Type-C Alternate Mode is Dual-Mode DisplayPort (DP++), which means you’ll need to use active adapters if you want to plug the Type-C connector into an HDMI, DVI, or VGA socket."

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/19 ... every-hole

pianowizard
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 8408
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:07 am
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Contact:

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#86 Post by pianowizard » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:07 am

jcvjcvjcvjcv wrote:Why would we want a half-baked one fast instead of a good one somewhat later? After all these years of stupid 16:9 only, who cares about another few months?
Agreed. Furthermore, 16:10 is just not "retro" enough. There were still plenty of 16:10 laptops in the 1st-gen Core i era, which are still fairly capable by today's standards and can be easily bought used. 3:2 would be more retro, in the sense that it's closer to 4:3.

The uniqueness of 3:2 also helps it stand out from the 16:10 laptops that are currently available (mainly but not exclusively Apple).

From a functionality point of view, 3:2 is the best compromise between tall and wide screens, so it should make the most number of users happy. Look at the Surface tablets -- they weren't successful until they went 3:2. Going 3:2 is *the* key to making this Classic Thinkpad profitable. Lenovo's manipulating this aspect ratio survey suggests that it is trying to avoid the hassle and/or cost of obtaining a 3:2 panel ("Look, you guys like 16:10 the most, so let's just forget about 3:2, okay?"), which is a huge mistake IMO. As we all know, taking shortcuts often leads to failure.

Finally, as someone else said previously, 3:2 is retro yet futuristic. It would appeal to both people who like old stuff, and those who want new things.
HP Pavilion x2 12 (Core M3-6Y30, 1920x1280, 3.14 lb); Microsoft Surface 3 (Atom x7-Z8700, 1920x1280, 2.0 lb)
Dell OptiPlex 5040 SFF (Core i5-6600); HP 8300 Elite minitower (Core i7-3770)
Acer T272HUL; Crossover 404K; Dell U2715H, U2711, P2416D; Monoprice 10734; QNIX QHD2410R; Seiki Pro SM40UNP

bgx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:56 am
Location: rennes, france

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#87 Post by bgx » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:11 am

This survey got interesting values:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/116iN7P ... wanalytics

16:10 => 44%
3:2+4:3 => 40% (break down: 25% for 3:2 and 15% for 4:3).

Could realisticaly be close to what David got.

for the fun, 16:9 => <11%

Bibin
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:07 am
Location: Brooklyn, New York

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#88 Post by Bibin » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:40 pm

I think "retro" is the wrong motivation. Being just what the old ones did, it's throwing away concessions that compromised quality. The T43 isn't so "retro" as the 700, but I think nearly anybody would prefer the design of the T43.

I don't think I can call 3:2 "more retro" so much as "taller than 16:10". It more resembles 4:3, in the same way, but I think putting things on a sliding scale of retro is not really a good idea.
Give your T43/T43p/R52/X41 the SATA it deserves! http://mikejmoffitt.com/sata

murak
Freshman Member
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:20 am
Location: Gotland, Sweden

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#89 Post by murak » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:48 pm

bgx wrote:This survey got interesting values:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/116iN7P ... wanalytics

16:10 => 44%
3:2+4:3 => 40% (break down: 25% for 3:2 and 15% for 4:3).

Could realisticaly be close to what David got.

for the fun, 16:9 => <11%
I like the questions, where was this posted?

I also have a question for experts: is there any later 12" laptop than the X230 that has a "full watt" (45W+) cpu?
X230 / 3320m / 16Gb / IPS / 240+64Gb SanDisk ssd / Ultrabase 3

RealBlackStuff
Admin
Admin
Posts: 18189
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Mt. Cobb, PA USA
Contact:

Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#90 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:04 pm

That was Reddit, very first post on this page: http://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/commen ... no_signin/

They were "at it" already on June 30, 2015, that's TEN days before David Hill!
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)

Check out The Boardroom for Parts, Mods and Other Services.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “T25-Retro Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests