Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

Large picture files of Retro system may be posted here but please try to limit them to <200KB

display ratio prefered

4:3
37
51%
3:2
20
27%
16:10
15
21%
16:9
1
1%
 
Total votes: 73

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bgx
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Survey 3 of 4 is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#1 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:45 am

http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... -the-hood/

sadly, 16:10 won.
Well at least it is what David said. cause we dont have the result for this one. May have won, but not by far. May be there are too many 4:3 for his taste, or i dont know what.

Anyway, if it can be on the market faster with a 16:10, i am all for it. Just hope they will consider more vertical space for next iteration if this one is a success.

I hope we wont end up with a monster - in which case i wont buy.

1.6kg is my limit.
14" 16:10 could be fine (e.g. the X1 carbon is bigger than that and still very light). Something heavier than X1C would be fine for me as long as it is reasonable if it gives us more reparability - upgradability.

I would like a iris pro graphics inside but no discrete. It not only boost graphics, it also boost CPU (up to 30%)

on a side note, 6500+ people did the survey, that is 50% increase over the previous one. We can hope to end up at 10K, which is very good for this kind of survey i think.

edit: created a poll to see what the result is restricted to this board.
Last edited by bgx on Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up

#2 Post by theterminator93 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:10 am

I'm just as content with 16:10 as I am 3:2, although I think 3:2 will be a little more future-proof than 16:10.

Weighed in my preferences on survey 3!
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up

#3 Post by brchan » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:12 am

For some reason I have trouble believing 16:10 won over 4:3 and 3:2, based on the comments here and on lenovo's original retro blog. They also showed a bar graph for screen size, but not for ratio... At least 16:9 did not win.
Last edited by brchan on Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up

#4 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:15 am

brchan wrote:For some reason I have trouble believing 16:10 won over 4:3 and 3:2, based on the comments here and on lenovo's original retro blog. At least 16:9 did not win...

could be :
4:3 25%
3:2 20%
16:10 40%
16:9 15%

well 16:10 wins, but 4:3+3:2 is almost 50%, so how to interpret the vote is up to you.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up

#5 Post by Tasurinchi » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:28 am

I personally never had a problem with 16:10, I hated abominations like WXGA resolutions on 14.1" and 15.4" ThinkPads, but I never was unhappy with the ratio itself.

In fact, WUXGA is by far my favorite resolution. I have it in almost all my 15.4" ThinkPads. If this RetroTP will have a 14-ish panel with at least WUXGA I would be a very happy ThinkPadder... :wink:
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#6 Post by 600X » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:20 am

I wasn't necessarily shocked by the alleged results but rather disappointed. I honestly expected 3:2 to win. Or at least I hoped it would. As bgx stated, and I have made a similar comment on the blog page, we'd need to know the exact figures to get a decisive conclusion. Perhaps, if all 4:3 and 3:2 voters gathered together and voted for either or, then 4:3/3:2 might win over 16:10 by a significant margin.

Like I was once told by my sociology teacher: If the winning vote is 40%, it still means that 60% are against it. It's all about absolutes and relatives.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#7 Post by bhtooefr » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:32 am

The problem with both the survey and this poll is there's often not space to explain the idea of what the user means by an isolated vote on a feature, and the results for each feature are likely looked at in isolation - so, they look at screen size, and then aspect ratio, not screen size and aspect ratio together.

For instance, I'm consistently voting for 13.3" 16:10... but I don't want a new X301. I want an X201 that's 2 mm wider, modernized, a 35 W quad core with Iris Pro (which is rumored - even if it doesn't happen, though, a 45-47 W quad could probably be crammed in there and sufficiently cooled with good enough cooling system design), and has a 13.3" 2560x1600 16:10 display crammed into the lid, because that would be a nice homage to the 700C form factor, and being "retro" it can get away with being a touch on the thick side. (And, I suspect it could fit in 1.5 kg/3.3 lbs or so.)

However, if the retro machine becomes 14.1"? I'd want it to be 4:3 at 2560x1920, probably. (Still, similar specs otherwise, to be honest.)
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#8 Post by QWERTY Andreas » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:35 am

I voted for 3:2. Its a good balance i think.

Things that i voted for:

Old style hinges. No question.

Quadcore processor, otherwise its only usable as a writing/surfing machine. This is a potential dealbreaker for me.

Old docking station, because it Works. Thunderbolt is very important for uågradeability and connectivity on the desk - otherwise just include it with the docking. Expresscard would be nice too, allowing people to add whatever they need.

Dedicated Graphics. Iris pro Graphics come in as a close second, but Integrated is a nogo.

Two RAM slots...
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#9 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:01 am

bhtooefr wrote:The problem with both the survey and this poll is there's often not space to explain the idea of what the user means by an isolated vote on a feature, and the results for each feature are likely looked at in isolation - so, they look at screen size, and then aspect ratio, not screen size and aspect ratio together.

For instance, I'm consistently voting for 13.3" 16:10... but I don't want a new X301. I want an X201 that's 2 mm wider, modernized, a 35 W quad core with Iris Pro (which is rumored - even if it doesn't happen, though, a 45-47 W quad could probably be crammed in there and sufficiently cooled with good enough cooling system design), and has a 13.3" 2560x1600 16:10 display crammed into the lid, because that would be a nice homage to the 700C form factor, and being "retro" it can get away with being a touch on the thick side. (And, I suspect it could fit in 1.5 kg/3.3 lbs or so.)

However, if the retro machine becomes 14.1"? I'd want it to be 4:3 at 2560x1920, probably. (Still, similar specs otherwise, to be honest.)
as we dont have the answer for David's poll (and there should be a reason for that), i wanted to ask the EXACT same question to have our own truth (of course we wont have 6200+ voters, so it wont becomparable, but it will give a good idea).

In general, i agree with you though, we would like to see a:
Ratio X: desired, neutral, dealbreaker.
Ratio Y: desired, neutral, dealbreaker.
...

To make better judgement, but i guess the question of David was not made to get better idea, it was made to confort him wtr the hierarchy. Else he would have at leats display the results, and possibly remade a poll with more explicit questions.

Edit:
guess the classic thinkpad will look like a T410s.
I hope it will be not as wide (space wasted on the sides of T410s), and i hope not as deep (space wasted below and above the screen - yes a 3:2 14" would fit there perfectly i guess instead!)

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#10 Post by QWERTY Andreas » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:18 am

bgx wrote: guess the classic thinkpad will look like a T410s.
I hope it will be not as wide (space wasted on the sides of T410s), and i hope not as deep (space wasted below and above the screen - yes a 3:2 14" would fit there perfectly i guess instead!)
I bring you the T430u: https://www.google.dk/search?q=t430u&rl ... 84&bih=984
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#11 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:30 am

QWERTY Andreas wrote:
bgx wrote: guess the classic thinkpad will look like a T410s.
I hope it will be not as wide (space wasted on the sides of T410s), and i hope not as deep (space wasted below and above the screen - yes a 3:2 14" would fit there perfectly i guess instead!)
I bring you the T430u: https://www.google.dk/search?q=t430u&rl ... 84&bih=984

well this is 16:9 still. Looks a lot like the X1c, but thiker.
there is still space wasted on the sides, and a lot of space wasted vertically...

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#12 Post by laowai » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:41 am

i'm a bit hungup on the graphics personally.

i got burned on their t42 failing (as it basically intended to do). Not once, not twice but THRICE. I am constantly worried now about the T60 having issues. I know the T61 has those same sorts of issues as well.

So Iris seems to be a lot better than integrated has been in the past, and that makes me start to think it might be good enough. I am on a friggin T60 afterall, so at this point practically ANYTHING is a step up. It keeps the heatsink less complex, less things to go wrong, probably better driver support as well.

This is not and never will be a gaming machine. It can definitely play games with iris pro, just not as well, but i dont play games, i work. computers that have both and do switching... users have found it to be a waste, not that much better, might as well be the old turbo button that did nothing.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#13 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:50 am

does it have a NVIDIA GPU? they had big manufacturing issues and making GPU which could not live more than few years. I guess you have one of those...

The more i see it, i think what we will end up with is a X302 as somone said slightly bigger, but that seems very reasonable.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#14 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:52 am

QWERTY Andreas wrote: I bring you the T430u: https://www.google.dk/search?q=t430u&rl ... 84&bih=984
OMG I hope not. Seriously. But one never knows.

Back to the topic, the farther we go with this survey the less I'm interested in this upcoming ThinkPad.

"Why" - one might ask - "Weren't you amongst the ones whose complaints against the keyboard redesign were the loudest? Now you're getting your 7-row back, jump from joy."

Heck, no.

I need a workstation and chances are - may I be wrong with this one - that we'll get to see a X302 of some kind.

I don't need a cool "retro" machine to be different from my Mac-toting friends in a coffee shop.

I happen to work for a living. The only time that I go into a coffee shop is to get my morning quad espresso and then get out, pronto.

There's no way that anyone in their right mind will attempt to cool a QC CPU - be it Skylake or not - in a 14" frame. They would end up with a hot throttling mess. In other words, with MB Pro without its pros. If I know that, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Mr. Hill does as well. So we'll end up with a 16:10 machine sporting an ULV CPU, likely in a 13.3"/14" format.

My $0.02 only...
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#15 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:53 am

loawai wrote: I am on a friggin T60 afterall
Other than an occasional VRAM problem with the ATI V5200/V5250 FireGL GPU (T60p only) there's rarely anything else that went wrong with a T60/p.
Their only drawback (as far as I'm concerned) is the max. 3GB RAM.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#16 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:56 am

bgx wrote:does it have a NVIDIA GPU? they had big manufacturing issues and making GPU which could not live more than few years. I guess you have one of those...
Nope, that was the R/T 61/p generation. Long time ago.

nVidia has been doing well in that respect ever since, as much as I still hate their guts for ruining what could've easily been the best ThinkPad of the Lenovo era.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#17 Post by laowai » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:04 am

Went with far too many ports, but what the hay, might as well.
Ultrabay
Mini HDMI
Mini Displayport
usb 3.0 x3
usb c
ONELINK docking (seems to be a better standard to me at least, more interchangable)
thunderbolt
VGA
Ethernet

extended battery
old-style hinges
no optical (i have a stack of about 6 of them in my closet that have literally never been used. when i need to read a disk i use one on a networked machine)

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#18 Post by QWERTY Andreas » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:12 am

ajkula66 wrote:
QWERTY Andreas wrote: I bring you the T430u: https://www.google.dk/search?q=t430u&rl ... 84&bih=984
OMG I hope not. Seriously. But one never knows.

Back to the topic, the farther we go with this survey the less I'm interested in this upcoming ThinkPad.

"Why" - one might ask - "Weren't you amongst the ones whose complaints against the keyboard redesign were the loudest? Now you're getting your 7-row back, jump from joy."

Heck, no.

I need a workstation and chances are - may I be wrong with this one - that we'll get to see a X302 of some kind.

I don't need a cool "retro" machine to be different from my Mac-toting friends in a coffee shop.

I happen to work for a living. The only time that I go into a coffee shop is to get my morning quad espresso and then get out, pronto.

There's no way that anyone in their right mind will attempt to cool a QC CPU - be it Skylake or not - in a 14" frame. They would end up with a hot throttling mess. In other words, with MB Pro without its pros. If I know that, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Mr. Hill does as well. So we'll end up with a 16:10 machine sporting an ULV CPU, likely in a 13.3"/14" format.

My $0.02 only...
The T430u is what i think it will look like, designwise. I know the screen ratio and keyboard are gonna be something like 16:10/3:2 and old style keys - but the rest of the design is close to what i think will happen.

Cooling a quadcore CPU in a 14" chassis is easily possible. Its not like theres a big difference in 15" and 14" cooling systems afterall (if the systems have the same thickness).
Will it be hot? Yes/Depending on the fan speedb. Is it impossible? Not at all. Saying that its not possible, shows that you haven't followed the market for quite some time. Of course, Prime95+Furmark will throttle it. But tell me about just one, just one, occasion where you load it like that during an extended period of time?
laowai wrote:Went with far too many ports, but what the hay, might as well.
Ultrabay
Mini HDMI
Mini Displayport
usb 3.0 x3
usb c
ONELINK docking (seems to be a better standard to me at least, more interchangable)
thunderbolt
VGA
Ethernet

extended battery
old-style hinges
no optical (i have a stack of about 6 of them in my closet that have literally never been used. when i need to read a disk i use one on a networked machine)
No reason to have both HDMI and Displayport IMO. Nor any reason to have both displayport and thunderbolt, since there is DP in TB.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#19 Post by laowai » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:16 am

ajkula66 wrote:
bgx wrote:does it have a NVIDIA GPU? they had big manufacturing issues and making GPU which could not live more than few years. I guess you have one of those...
Nope, that was the R/T 61/p generation. Long time ago.

nVidia has been doing well in that respect ever since, as much as I still hate their guts for ruining what could've easily been the best ThinkPad of the Lenovo era.
yep, and i hate em too. thing is, it used to be a big deal because integrated was always garbage. iris pro seems to be decent. i make do with my T60 and don't really run into too many issues. I simply do not need some top of the line nvidia card. i do not want to take the risk AGAIN when integrated will meet all my needs. it's not like they can be upgraded, so who cares really? i care more about having an ultrabay that can take extra hard drives, having more than enough ram that's not soldered in and having a nice silent, cool system.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#20 Post by laowai » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:22 am

QWERTY Andreas wrote: No reason to have both HDMI and Displayport IMO. Nor any reason to have both displayport and thunderbolt, since there is DP in TB.
DP and TB, ok you got me there, i have never used either.
I'm just looking at the future.

# of things that have HDMI: everything
# of things that have displayport: i have literally never seen it anywhere ever.

in a mini form though, i wouldnt care if it was there and i never used it. it's more about the "if it takes off i'll be [censored] i dont have it"

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#21 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:26 am

QWERTY Andreas wrote:
Cooling a quadcore CPU in a 14" chassis is easily possible. Its not like theres a big difference in 15" and 14" cooling systems afterall (if the systems have the same thickness).
Will it be hot? Yes/Depending on the fan speedb. Is it impossible? Not at all. Saying that its not possible, shows that you haven't followed the market for quite some time.
Please educate me with a real-world example.
Of course, Prime95+Furmark will throttle it. But tell me about just one, just one, occasion where you load it like that during an extended period of time?
Some of the proprietary industry-related-software that I happen to run on occasion will shut down just about any laptop, short of possibly a Clevo with a desktop CPU. Don't presume that you know how I - or for that fact anyone else - uses their system, or what their specific requirements are.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#22 Post by QWERTY Andreas » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:33 am

ajkula66 wrote: Please educate me with a real-world example.
Here you go: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Len ... 423.0.html
Quad Core CPU, no throtteling as far as i can read. Okay, with a dockingstation and a high end processor it throttles. But that is more a stupid design of the dockingstation than the concept of QC 14" being bad.
ajkula66 wrote:Some of the proprietary industry-related-software that I happen to run on occasion will shut down just about any laptop, short of possibly a Clevo with a desktop CPU. Don't presume that you know how I - or for that fact anyone else - uses their system, or what their specific requirements are.
Thermal shutdown? Probably not...

Not enough power? Well... Then its not like your gonna use a laptop for it anyway, rather than throtteling being the issue :wink:
Last edited by QWERTY Andreas on Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#23 Post by Bibin » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:38 am

I voted for Intel Iris Pro graphics, as Nvidia graphics would be okay with me but AMD not so much (thinking of power consumption and Linux driver support at the same time).
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#24 Post by bhtooefr » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:39 am

And, the other thing is, there's rumors of 35 watt configurations of Skylake-H quad cores. A 35 watt CPU is something that Lenovo's sold in a 12-inch chassis - the X60, X61, X200, and X201 all had them.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#25 Post by lead_org » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:45 am

my preference would be to get something built. Lenovo will only consider building this, if there are enough solid commitments from customers (i.e. partial payment upfront).
Current ThinkPad: T430u, T430s, X1 Carbon, X1, X230t, X220t, X230, X220, X201t, W520, W701ds, T500, T420 and many more

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#26 Post by Nigellus » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:46 am

Hmmm... I'm going to have to mull over this one a bit before I actually do the survey. To that end, I'd like to hear some learned commentary on the graphics and hard drive configuration options (for example, I like a lot of storage space, but I also like the speed and responsiveness of an SSD, but I don't have an opinion what would be best for this hypothetical machine).

I prefer lots of ports (although the monitor-related ones are taken care of--for me--with a docking port).

I want a removable CD/DVD/R drive that can be replaced with a travel bezel if I ever need to shave off some ounces.

My opinion about the Drive and the RAM mainly revolves around ease of access/upgradability. For example, if they want to put an HDD in it, that's fine. But I want to be able to swap it out for a SSD if I want to, and be able to do so without taking the machine apart. For RAM, I also prefer maximum upgrade potential.

I think they need to revisit the display question and ask it in two parts:

Part A.) Which of these ratios do you prefer?

Part B.) If your first choice is impracticable due to factors such as expense, or majority preference, is there a second ratio that, while not ideal, you would find acceptable?

Then, with math, you could reasonably establish what the public preference is.
Last edited by Nigellus on Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
T420 i5-2520M 2.50GHz 4 GB RAM 64-bit OS WIN7pro SP1

T60 1951-46U Intel Core Duo 1.83GHz 1 GB RAM 60 GB XPpro

TP 600E 2645 PII 366MHZ 160MB RAM 37.2GB WIN98SE

Computers do exactly what you tell them at amazing speeds; this can be bad if what you told them wasn't what you had in mind.

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#27 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:53 am

QWERTY Andreas wrote:
Here you go: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Len ... 423.0.html
Quad Core CPU, no throtteling as far as i can read. Okay, with a dockingstation and a high end processor it throttles. But that is more a stupid design of the dockingstation than the concept of QC 14" being bad.
With all the 15.6" systems from that era suffering from throttling - don't take my word for it, visit LF and NBR on the matter at hand - I have an *extremely* difficult time swallowing this review. Cooling on ThinkPads has sucked for several years now, big time. Which is what one gets for attempting to imitate Macs, but I digress...
Thermal shutdown? Probably not...
Most definitely yes.
Not enough power? Well... Then its not like your gonna use a laptop for it anyway, rather than throtteling being the issue :wink:
Honestly, I would prefer not to. However, due to circumstances beyond my control I will likely have to.
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#28 Post by bhtooefr » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:01 pm

To be fair, I distinctly recall my X61t (and that's with a 17 W CPU) noticeably throttling hard when gaming, and that's well before any Mac imitation happened in the line. And, I remember my X21 hitting thermal shutoff (then again, I recall the person I sold it to saying that the real problem was that the GPU needed to be reflowed, on that one).

Conversely, my Mac will occasionally hit 95 C, when it's getting deep into the turbo, and back off turbo. That's not exactly throttling in the sense of how my X61t did it, and it's not actually that noticeable compared to my X61t slowing down to 600 MHz or less...
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#29 Post by Nigellus » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:03 pm

Slightly off topic copyediting nitpick.

The title of the poll says display "ration." MOD Edit: corrected into: ratio

I do that too. Whenever I type "ratio," it comes out "ration." Now that I see I'm not the only one, I'm curious where the tendency to do that might come from...
T420 i5-2520M 2.50GHz 4 GB RAM 64-bit OS WIN7pro SP1

T60 1951-46U Intel Core Duo 1.83GHz 1 GB RAM 60 GB XPpro

TP 600E 2645 PII 366MHZ 160MB RAM 37.2GB WIN98SE

Computers do exactly what you tell them at amazing speeds; this can be bad if what you told them wasn't what you had in mind.

Nigellus
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Re: Survey 3 of ?? is up + PLEASE VOTE FOR this forum Aspect Ratio

#30 Post by Nigellus » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:05 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Honestly, I would prefer not to. However, due to circumstances beyond my control I will likely have to.
I always overprepare as well. I encounter those pesky circumstances beyond my control a lot and I prefer to have the option to mitigate the ill effects.
T420 i5-2520M 2.50GHz 4 GB RAM 64-bit OS WIN7pro SP1

T60 1951-46U Intel Core Duo 1.83GHz 1 GB RAM 60 GB XPpro

TP 600E 2645 PII 366MHZ 160MB RAM 37.2GB WIN98SE

Computers do exactly what you tell them at amazing speeds; this can be bad if what you told them wasn't what you had in mind.

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