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RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

T25-Retro specific matters only
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RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#1 Post by theterminator93 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:00 am

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Re: Retro ThinkPad survey #4 of ??

#2 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:33 am

you can change the title, it is the last survey.

"Next week I’ll post a recap of the results and discuss where we are on the project so far".

also, lead_org stated it earlier, and this 4th survey feels lastish anyway.

I am looking forward to
''where we are on the project so far".

Also, i voted fot the think PAD with PAD in color. I like it best.

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#3 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:59 am

Voted my preferences.

From what Mr. Hill has presented so far regarding the results of the previous surveys, my hopes for getting what I was looking for have sunk very low. Hopefully other people will be happy with whatever this machine ends up being.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#4 Post by csioucs » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:46 am

If I may chime in along famous and more experienced participants (I started rather late :) - with the Thinkpad 380E), I too was dismayed - lack of Ultrabay for example and expandabilty ports. Unless USB-C will have adapters for everything. Also it seems that HDMI even if inferior to DP, because of pervasiveness is more popular. Also, I'm wondering if a retrothinkpad can be called a retrothinkpad without the Ultrabay for instance. In the end like a half beefed up W550s in smaller package, and with a 7keys keyboard. Which in itself may not be bad, but the retro features are likely to be stronger or weaker hints.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#5 Post by brchan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:58 am

ajkula66 wrote:Voted my preferences.

From what Mr. Hill has presented so far regarding the results of the previous surveys, my hopes for getting what I was looking for have sunk very low. Hopefully other people will be happy with whatever this machine ends up being.
My thoughts as well. At least the classic layout keyboard and 16:10 screen seem certain. We are probably looking at a new x201s or x220 with 16:10 screen, if this even becomes real. Not bad, but could be better.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#6 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:13 am

brchan wrote:
ajkula66 wrote:Voted my preferences.

From what Mr. Hill has presented so far regarding the results of the previous surveys, my hopes for getting what I was looking for have sunk very low. Hopefully other people will be happy with whatever this machine ends up being.
My thoughts as well. At least the classic layout keyboard and 16:10 screen seem certain. We are probably looking at a new x201s or x220 with 16:10 screen, if this even becomes real. Not bad, but could be better.
i would be happy, but i think we would see something more on the line of X301/T450s, so more middle of the road, with may be 25W processors possible. It may make more people keen to buy it.

Again, even if it is ultimately not for me, i wish it success too, hoping that success to this 1 shot will bring a full catalogue of classic thinkpad in the future, making each of us happy!

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#7 Post by theterminator93 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:34 pm

ajkula66 wrote:From what Mr. Hill has presented so far regarding the results of the previous surveys, my hopes for getting what I was looking for have sunk very low.
I tend to agree now, hence my comment in this survey about needing more than one type of machine to satisfy the most people. I was fairly accepting of what had been released about the results of the surveys thus far until the part about no ultrabay. Sorry Lenovo - I can live with a 16:10 screen but no ultrabay for me is a dealbreaker. I need access to read and write optical media on a fairly regular basis for work, so I can't buy a "work" laptop that I can't do all my work on. Having to carry around a USB ODD all the time is just silly considering how often I use them. :(
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#8 Post by 600X » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:42 pm

I hope I'm not the only one who voted for the rainbow logo. :lol:
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#9 Post by Bibin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:55 pm

I voted for the last one as well, I think it is a classy mix with a logical separation of colors.

I'm going to restate again that I think "Retro" was a terrible choice of words. I think what the majority of people want from this is just a better ThinkPad with fewer cost-cutting concessions. If it turns out like an up-to-date X300, I'll be as happy as possible.

I hope nobody voted for Linux as a pre-installed system. I use Linux as my main operating system daily, but putting it on a computer as the OEM OS is not a good idea. Everyone who is even moderately comfortable with the system wants to set up their own choice of so many distros, and set it up the way they want. They'd format the drive and do it themselves even if it came with Linux. I would rather a "No OS" choice for this vocal minority of users. Selling it with a Linux distro as a pre-installed operating system is a great way to confuse average consumers, who unfortunately have to be factored in because they are the ones with (effectively) the fattest wallets, simply from volume.

Unrelated note, but kudos to whoever has fixed the posting page size!
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#10 Post by sysiphus » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:27 pm

Bibin wrote:I voted for the last one as well, I think it is a classy mix with a logical separation of colors.

I'm going to restate again that I think "Retro" was a terrible choice of words. I think what the majority of people want from this is just a better ThinkPad with fewer cost-cutting concessions. If it turns out like an up-to-date X300, I'll be as happy as possible.

I hope nobody voted for Linux as a pre-installed system. I use Linux as my main operating system daily, but putting it on a computer as the OEM OS is not a good idea. Everyone who is even moderately comfortable with the system wants to set up their own choice of so many distros, and set it up the way they want. They'd format the drive and do it themselves even if it came with Linux. I would rather a "No OS" choice for this vocal minority of users. Selling it with a Linux distro as a pre-installed operating system is a great way to confuse average consumers, who unfortunately have to be factored in because they are the ones with (effectively) the fattest wallets, simply from volume.

Unrelated note, but kudos to whoever has fixed the posting page size!
As I stated in the main Retro ThinkPad thread, it seems to me like we're looking at a refreshed X1 Carbon or X201, rather than an X300--since optical drives/ultrabay seem to be out (given feedback to survey results), it's hard to imagine a design that prioritizes that space. Of the two, I'd far rather see a new X201--more modular/classic design, and a bit thicker which would allow for better heat dissipation for higher-TDP processors. Though I can get by with less than an i7-QM, I'm not interested in a ULV processor. Without the thickness dictated by an optical drive, a proper quadcore is almost certainly ruled out, due to thermal constraints (it's been done, but the inherent throttling needed to keep temperatures down makes it of little use...forget about any sort of workstation-class machine).

About the OS: I don't think it's unreasonable to vote for Linux--I strongly doubt that it'll be a mainstream choice, or even a CTO option. But voicing that interest might push Lenovo towards hardware that is Linux-friendly, at least. Back in the T60 days, I know that SLED was offered as a CTO option, and HP has offered SLED as a CTO option on some of their high-end Elitebooks for years. RHEL is available through some ordering means for high-end Dells, too. It's not unreasonable to think of on a business-class machine, though Ubuntu is hardly the distro I'd expect to see offered for the business crowd.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#11 Post by brchan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:15 pm

If Lenovo gets rid of the ultrabay, I would not mind as much, provided that the system is stiffer. The ultrabay area on thinkpada have almost always been a weak spot. Now if they decide to make the system thin thin thin, then I am not interested.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#12 Post by Dekks » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:47 pm

brchan wrote:If Lenovo gets rid of the ultrabay, I would not mind as much, provided that the system is stiffer. The ultrabay area on thinkpada have almost always been a weak spot. Now if they decide to make the system thin thin thin, then I am not interested.
Seeing a the X301 was the starting point, it will be thin. I think the who Retropad thang is a sham. Lenovo might as well leave the Thinkpad brand on the X1 and forget the T,X and W models as they will never fit as ultrabooks. A W series with ULV chips that throttles at the hint of load says it all.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#13 Post by brchan » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:08 pm

The X300/X301 is probably the best combination of strength, features, and thinness. It also has probably the tightest quality control and speakers of any Lenovo era thinkpad. It isn't a real surprise that the 'retro' design was based off of it. Whether or not all these traits will be found in the 'retro' thinkpad is still a question.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#14 Post by Dekks » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:25 pm

Its the only old model that comes close to being an ultrabook and thus eligible for intels dosh.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#15 Post by pkiff » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:19 pm

ajkula66 wrote:From what Mr. Hill has presented so far regarding the results of the previous surveys, my hopes for getting what I was looking for have sunk very low. Hopefully other people will be happy with whatever this machine ends up being.
I'm surprised by the number of folks who seem so disappointed with the survey results and who don't see this project heading in a good direction.

I think that there are probably a good number of people who will be happy just to see Lenovo bring back a good keyboard and have at least 16:10 screen ratio - or better.

It's great that they are trying to build interest for the machine and trying to listen to that portion of their users who are active on discussion boards like this one, but my expectations have always been pretty simple. I think there are several current Thinkpads that could probably meet my needs, but none of them can really do that without a 7-row keyboard.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#16 Post by lead_org » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:36 pm

While there are lot of ThinkPadders out there whom want classic thinkpad to make a come back, we don't speak with a common voice. This is also one reason Lenovo has not able to address this market with a consistent effort before, because unlike corporate and enterprise customers where the needs are consistent; the consumer market is really picky about what they want in their ThinkPad.

If we want the ThinkPad Retro project to be a successful, we really need to understand the constraint of this project, which include:

1. 16:10 IPS would be the cheapest to source.
2. Quad Core CPU/Dual Core ULT CPU cause a significant system design deviation.
3. Lenovo expects certain minimum commitment from the customers before they would want to give a go-ahead to this project.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#17 Post by pkiff » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:52 pm

lead_org wrote:3. Lenovo expects certain minimum commitment from the customers before they would want to give a go-ahead to this project.
I've seen you mention this before, and I have to say that this seems out of the ordinary. I'm not sure I would commit to a deposit of any kind. It's not like this is a kickstarter fundraiser. This is one of the world's largest computer hardware companies simply creating a new model. If Lenovo doesn't think they can make a machine without getting pre-orders with deposits, then I'm not sure they can make the machine at all. If they don't think there is a market for the machine, then they shouldn't make it. Someone else will. Or at least, someone else will come up with a keyboard option combined with a display with a half-decent vertical height that it will be good enough.

Mmmm...on the other hand, maybe if they promise to put my name in the BIOS to display on boot up - you know, like a kickstarter supporter bonus - then I would consider putting down some cash before they built the machine. Just Kidding! But seriously, this is not a kickstarter fundraiser. There are lots of very good laptops on the market to choose from already, including some from Lenovo, and so I doubt I'd be willing to put down money without seeing an actual finished product first.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#18 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:04 pm

Dekks wrote:Its the only old model that comes close to being an ultrabook and thus eligible for intels dosh.
This. Many, many times.
pkiff wrote:I'm surprised by the number of folks who seem so disappointed with the survey results and who don't see this project heading in a good direction.
Different people have different priorities...
I think that there are probably a good number of people who will be happy just to see Lenovo bring back a good keyboard and have at least 16:10 screen ratio - or better.
That was my attitude at the starting point. No more. For several reasons.
It's great that they are trying to build interest for the machine and trying to listen to that portion of their users who are active on discussion boards like this one, but my expectations have always been pretty simple. I think there are several current Thinkpads that could probably meet my needs, but none of them can really do that without a 7-row keyboard.
To me it's getting to look more and more like a quick cashing in on despair coming from the 7-row loyalist crew.
lead_org wrote:While there are lot of ThinkPadders out there whom want classic thinkpad to make a come back, we don't speak with a common voice. This is also one reason Lenovo has not able to address this market with a consistent effort before, because unlike corporate and enterprise customers where the needs are consistent; the consumer market is really picky about what they want in their ThinkPad.
Huh? Neither group ever asked Lenovo to kill the classic keyboard and they did it anyway.
If we want the ThinkPad Retro project to be a successful, we really need to understand the constraint of this project, which include:

1. 16:10 IPS would be the cheapest to source.
Why would we care? It's not like this is going to be a $500 system.
2. Quad Core CPU/Dual Core ULT CPU cause a significant system design deviation.
Sure, if they're building an ultrabook.
pkiff wrote:
lead_org wrote:3. Lenovo expects certain minimum commitment from the customers before they would want to give a go-ahead to this project.
I've seen you mention this before, and I have to say that this seems out of the ordinary. I'm not sure I would commit to a deposit of any kind. It's not like this is a kickstarter fundraiser. This is one of the world's largest computer hardware companies simply creating a new model. If Lenovo doesn't think they can make a machine without getting pre-orders, then I'm not sure they can make the machine at all. If they don't think there is a market for the machine, then they shouldn't make it. Someone else will.
I'm with pkiff on this one. BlackBerry Classic comes to mind.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#19 Post by Ibthink » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:35 pm

ajkula66 wrote:Huh? Neither group ever asked Lenovo to kill the classic keyboard and they did it anyway.
Sure. And they also didn´t do anything to stop Lenovo. Because they just don´t care if the keyboard has 6 rows or 7 rows. Thats kind of an non-issue for big corporations.

You can be very sure that the 6 row keyboard wouldn´t have been rolled out to all ThinkPads if the big company customers cut back on sales. This was not like with the ClickPad. Lenovo had plenty of time there to test the water (with Edge, X100e, SL and L-Series and the X1 all featuring 6 row keyboard long before the Tx30 shift). They knew that corporate customers where okay with it before they did the change.
ajkula66 wrote:Why would we care? It's not like this is going to be a $500 system.
I guess it would sell bad if the starting price was 2500 €....or even 2000 €, which is still a bit high for a starting price.
ajkula66 wrote:BlackBerry Classic comes to mind.
BlackBerry is of course the best example of a healthy and successful company.

Or not. it seems like Blackberry will ditch their own OS and go over to Android: http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/blac ... martphones

The Classic was the desperate attempt to get money from loyalists. The difference between Lenovo and Blackberry though...Lenovo isn´t desperate. ThinkPads recovered pretty fast overall it seems with the Broadwell release, after the sales went supposedly down in 2014. And besides ThinkPads (which are not even the most important part of Lenovos business since the smartphones surge), Lenovo is doing reasonably good as well it seems.

The truth is, this projects only exists thanks to lead_org. Without him, this initiative wouldn´t be here at all I think (and of course thanks to David Hill, since this is kind of a passion project for him). Problem is, you can´t forget completely about economics. Lenovo as a company wants to make profit. Thats why there are certain constrains here and there...

Buy it or buy it not. If this thing fails, well...than Lenovo will take it as proof that such a project isn´t worth going after at all...
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#20 Post by Dekks » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:00 pm

lead_org wrote:While there are lot of ThinkPadders out there whom want classic thinkpad to make a come back, we don't speak with a common voice. This is also one reason Lenovo has not able to address this market with a consistent effort before, because unlike corporate and enterprise customers where the needs are consistent; the consumer market is really picky about what they want in their ThinkPad.

If we want the ThinkPad Retro project to be a successful, we really need to understand the constraint of this project, which include:

1. 16:10 IPS would be the cheapest to source.
2. Quad Core CPU/Dual Core ULT CPU cause a significant system design deviation.
3. Lenovo expects certain minimum commitment from the customers before they would want to give a go-ahead to this project.
A 1 off machine is of little interest to me, I'm more interested in the bigger picture.

The real issue IMO is that as a 1 off sop to the old time TP design ethos, the rest of the Thinkpad line in the future will mean less user changeable/upgradeable parts less options and nothing but ULV processors. Thinkpads were work machines not fashion accessories. If Lenovo are saying they cant make money like that, then just bury the brand.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#21 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:02 pm

Ibthink wrote: Sure. And they also didn´t do anything to stop Lenovo. Because they just don´t care if the keyboard has 6 rows or 7 rows. Thats kind of an non-issue for big corporations.
And you're basing this statement of what kind of verifiable data?
You can be very sure that the 6 row keyboard wouldn´t have been rolled out to all ThinkPads if the big company customers cut back on sales. This was not like with the ClickPad. Lenovo had plenty of time there to test the water (with Edge, X100e, SL and L-Series and the X1 all featuring 6 row keyboard long before the Tx30 shift). They knew that corporate customers where okay with it before they did the change.
Nope. We all know how they surveyed about the keyboard change. Let's not re-write the history.
I guess it would sell bad if the starting price was 2500 €....or even 2000 €, which is still a bit high for a starting price.
It all depends on what one actually gets for their money. 2500 Euros is a bargain-basement price for a workstation, and a rip-off for a coffee-shop machine.
ajkula66 wrote:BlackBerry Classic comes to mind.
BlackBerry is of course the best example of a healthy and successful company.

Or not. it seems like Blackberry will ditch their own OS and go over to Android: http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/blac ... martphones

The Classic was the desperate attempt to get money from loyalists. The difference between Lenovo and Blackberry though...Lenovo isn´t desperate.
You've just proven my point which seems to have gone right over your head in the first place. Thank you.
The truth is, this projects only exists thanks to lead_org. Without him, this initiative wouldn´t be here at all I think (and of course thanks to David Hill, since this is kind of a passion project for him). Problem is, you can´t forget completely about economics. Lenovo as a company wants to make profit. Thats why there are certain constrains here and there...
No one here said that Lenovo shouldn't make a profit.
Buy it or buy it not. If this thing fails, well...than Lenovo will take it as proof that such a project isn´t worth going after at all...
A proverbial carrot if I ever saw one on this forum.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#22 Post by bhtooefr » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:17 pm

Dekks wrote:The real issue IMO is that as a 1 off sop to the old time TP design ethos, the rest of the Thinkpad line in the future will mean less user changeable/upgradeable parts less options and nothing but ULV processors. Thinkpads were work machines not fashion accessories. If Lenovo are saying they cant make money like that, then just bury the brand.
In 1992, the ThinkPad line consisted of:

Tablets:
  • 2521 ThinkPad (aka 700T) - 386SX @ 20 MHz, which was the standard CPU for budget notebooks at the time
2-in-ones with kickstand and detachable keyboard, ala Microsoft Surface:
  • ThinkPad PS/55 T22sx - another 386SX, but @ 16 MHz (for bargain basement notebooks!) for Japan only
Notebooks:
  • ThinkPad 300 - i386SL @ 25 MHz, hey, we've got ourselves a low voltage part (3.3 instead of 5.0, but still)! Of course, this thing was barely more than a badge job on the Zenith Z-Note 325L...
  • ThinkPad PS/55 note M23V/C23V (5523-V) - i386SX @ 25 MHz. This is a Japanese-market oddball that I wouldn't really call a ThinkPad, but it's far more of one than the 300, as it's based on the 5523-S (aka the PS/2 note N33 SX in Western markets), and the 5523-S is really the direct predecessor of the 700/700C.
  • ThinkPad 700/700C (aka ThinkPad PS/55 note C52, I don't think an M52 existed) - IBM 486SLC @ 25 MHz, another 3.3 V part
So, what do we have? We've got two tablets with 386SXes, which was what budget notebooks tended to run - it was cheap, and chipsets for it weren't as power hungry as for a 386DX IIRC. We've got one lower-end notebook with a 386SL, which was more expensive, but lower power consumption. We've got one lower-end notebook with a 386SX. And, finally, a top-of-the-line notebook with an IBM 486SLC, which wasn't a true 486 at all, but was an Intel 386SL core, with a bunch of cache and 486 instruction set compatibility added.

And, yes, you could get real 386DX and 486SX/486DX notebooks (and I do mean notebooks in the old sense of the word, the form factor, which the 700/700C stuck to) in 1992, even a 486DX2 at 50 MHz it appears.

So, the entire ThinkPad line consisted of either low voltage processors (one of which was decently quick compared to its 25 MHz 486SX competitors, but a 33 MHz 486DX or 50 MHz DX2, not so much), or full voltage processors that were no faster (but were cheaper), and in the tablets, were slower.

A low voltage CPU, at the top of the line, that's (less than) half the speed of the full voltage CPUs in other notebooks is very much a retro ThinkPad "feature", actually. Of course, to be a true retro high-end ThinkPad, IBM would have to do something like license Ivy Bridge from Intel, die shrink it, add a bunch of cache, add Haswell's instruction set to it, manufacture it in the fabs they just sold to GloFo, and make it about as fast as a ULV Broadwell. (Hey, that's pretty much what happened with the 386SL to make the 486SLC... Not that I'm suggesting that IBM and Lenovo do this (it's actually a bad idea), but it'd fit.)
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#23 Post by bgx » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:29 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Buy it or buy it not. If this thing fails, well...than Lenovo will take it as proof that such a project isn´t worth going after at all...
A proverbial carrot if I ever saw one on this forum.
well he can only be right. If it is done and it fails, we will never see another one again.

He never say that if it is a success, then we will see more. It is possible (the more successfull the first one is, the more probable we will see a follow up). You can be doubtful on that one statement, but the former statement is pretty clear. It is this time or never. And it may anyway be success AND never, but at least we would have tried.

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#24 Post by Norway Pad » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:52 pm

pkiff wrote:I'm surprised by the number of folks who seem so disappointed with the survey results and who don't see this project heading in a good direction.

I think that there are probably a good number of people who will be happy just to see Lenovo bring back a good keyboard and have at least 16:10 screen ratio - or better.

It's great that they are trying to build interest for the machine and trying to listen to that portion of their users who are active on discussion boards like this one, but my expectations have always been pretty simple. I think there are several current Thinkpads that could probably meet my needs, but none of them can really do that without a 7-row keyboard.
+1 on this one.

After analyzing and putting all my selections from all surveys in a quick list here, I end up with a laptop that looks almost exactly like the T61 I'm typing this on, except that I voted for QuadCore and 14".. Now is that really a "Retro" Thinkpad? I started out in the Thinkpad game so early, that for me, the T60 and particularly the T61 with 16:10 were deviations from the systems I was used to at the time. I really haven't looked at the Retro project this way before, but my specified Retro unit of 2015 looks just like the very same unit that I in late 2007 gave the odd looks, as I thought it deviated too much from my old units at the time. So things change, don't they. Looks and styles mature. 16:9 never grew on me, though. That was and still is a deal breaker.

So I am one of those who will be happy with a return of the 7-row keyboard and a taller screen. With emphasis on the taller screen. I do however hope that the package will be 14" and accommodate a full power QuadCore CPU. Basically a QuadCore 14" T61 or even T410.. But the name Classic instead of Retro comes to mind.

And like stated above: If this fails, and never happens, at least we know that we tried. Hats off for that. How that will affect my (And even other user's) future relationship with Lenovo, only time will tell.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#25 Post by PandorasThinkpad » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:30 pm

Hey!

In my eyes too many people have voted for a thinner "Retro"....better "new classic", so no optical drive and ultrabay will be realized...if lenovo stricly follows this votings....and that will be for me more or less a cause not to buy any of this machines....if they ever will be built, even this is not sure until now...

i've also taken part in this last survey....which was quite nothing special for me...

Sincerly,

PanDoRa
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T23 with 1,2 GHz PIII-M, CCFL SXGA+ (LG, 46L2495) (will approximately never get LED Mod),
R500 with ATI Graphics, P8400, 8GB Ram & WSXGA+ (LP164W02(TL)(10))
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#26 Post by Bibin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:03 pm

The jaded "we've been tricked again" attitude is frustrating.

Chances are we're getting a quad-core CPU (hopefully not ULV), plenty of RAM, a decent-resolution IPS screen at at least 13", likely not 16:9, with a good keyboard and trackpoint. The battery life is probably at least decent, just from being a modern chipset. If those features are in place, and they are implemented properly, is it really worth complaining that the laptop isn't thick enough in the name of being "Retro"? And again, is the lack of optical media / swappable bay an actual complete interest killer? What other machine are you going to turn to for needs that are so trite? You can turn to Dell or HP, who will sell you a laptop with a piss keyboard, a 16:9 display, and a ULV CPU, but at least the precious optical media is there and it's thick!

That is like a bakery not having the flavor of muffin you wanted, so the solution was to roll your face around in the mud. Surely that's better than having one that isn't perfect! Turning away from the project because it isn't the exact machine you wanted is not a good attitude. I want a modern X40 with an IPS display, but I'm not getting that. Fine. The X60/T60 upset me when the blue/red highlights were missing from the TrackPoint buttons. I didn't go out and buy a WinBook in response. If a new ThinkPad that has many of the features people wanted does reasonably well, then it may open Lenovo up to allowing some of these changes elsewhere, including their workstation lines. If not, at least you have a modern computer that is closer to the ThinkPads you liked from before.

I am not understanding how the UltraBay is a vital part of someone demanding a "retro workhorse machine" - the most important part there is the CPU being a powerful part (not ULV), and the GPU being powerful - is that UltraBay really helping you get your CAD work done? Is your 3D modeling better now that you can put a disc in the drive? Or is it possible that these non-negotiable needs are not practical requirements, but some sort of image thing? The most legitimate complaint here is that you can't put a second hard disk in the slot, but it is 2015 and you probably want an mSATA SSD anyway. You can put a hard disk or another SSD in the other SATA port. Of everything to whine about, the UltraBay is ridiculous.
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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#27 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:20 pm

Bibin wrote:The jaded "we've been tricked again" attitude is frustrating.
For those who don't remember the "15,000" nonsense from some years ago, it most certainly is.
Chances are we're getting a quad-core CPU (hopefully not ULV), plenty of RAM, a decent-resolution IPS screen at at least 13", likely not 16:9, with a good keyboard and trackpoint.
I doubt that we'll see a real QC in a 13.3" - or even a 14" - shell. Then again, do we *really* want to see it? Think about it.
If a new ThinkPad that has many of the features people wanted does reasonably well, then it may open Lenovo up to allowing some of these changes elsewhere, including their workstation lines. If not, at least you have a modern computer that is closer to the ThinkPads you liked from before.
That's a fair enough statement.

Two things come into play here, though:

1) A real risk of the end result being a mish-mash offering that really doesn't satisfy anyone's needs all that well.

2) Am I really going to buy a system that I have no real use for in order to hopefully get Lenovo to re-consider a workstation-grade Classic ThinkPad?

My guess on what the end result will be for right now: a 13.3" X30* sans the UltraBay, ULV CPU, Mac-related (but matte) IPS screen. Integrated battery. Not certain about RAM setup so I won't hedge a bet on that just yet. Price tag starting at $1250 - maybe a bit higher - in the U.S.

Time will tell how wrong - or correct - I am.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#28 Post by lead_org » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:56 pm

Basically, Lenovo can only produce one machine design. So we won't be seeing one for 13.3 inches and 15 inches machine. If Lenovo does offer two CPU options, then i am not sure how they will do it.

Remember at the end of day, a company like Lenovo makes money from selling laptops, they are not a charity. If Lenovo don't want to charge a high premium for this machine, then they need to be sure they can sell certain number of machines to guarantee what they are doing is worthwhile.

Apple is able to use 4:3 screen for tablets, and 16:10 for laptops because they have lot of buyers whom are willing to buy their products at the price they sell at. While, ThinkPad seems to have lot of fans, but not many people want to buy it when Lenovo does give you the opportunity to do so. A brand needs to be nurtured from both the people that owns the brand, but also from the customers.

If you really love ThinkPad, as many of you say you do, you would think of some way to help out (and you can start by being a little more positive). It is a miracle that we even got this far. Personally, i lost hope at the end of last year that we would see the classic thinkpad coming back.
Current ThinkPad: T430u, T430s, X1 Carbon, X1, X230t, X220t, X230, X220, X201t, W520, W701ds, T500, T420 and many more

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#29 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:22 pm

lead_org wrote:Basically, Lenovo can only produce one machine design. So we won't be seeing one for 13.3 inches and 15 inches machine.
I'm fairly certain that most of us have figured this out by now...
Remember at the end of day, a company like Lenovo makes money from selling laptops, they are not a charity. If Lenovo don't want to charge a high premium for this machine, then they need to be sure they can sell certain number of machines to guarantee what they are doing is worthwhile.
I'd rather have them charge a premium and do it right. That's the way IBM was doing it, and Apple and Panasonic are still following the suite today.
Apple is able to use 4:3 screen for tablets, and 16:10 for laptops because they have lot of buyers whom are willing to buy their products at the price they sell at.
Nice logical fallacy right there. Apple couldn't have been certain that people would love the iPad when they presented it in 4:3. They believed in their product - or late Jobs' vision or whatever - took their chances and won. Big time.
While, ThinkPad seems to have lot of fans, but not many people want to buy it when Lenovo does give you the opportunity to do so.
Another logical fallacy. There is *no* product as of yet, so it's not the question of anyone around here buying it or not.
A brand needs to be nurtured from both the people that owns the brand, but also from the customers.
Many of us have nurtured the brand just to get smacked in the face, again and again. Next.
If you really love ThinkPad, as many of you say you do, you would think of some way to help out (and you can start by being a little more positive). It is a miracle that we even got this far. Personally, i lost hope at the end of last year that we would see the classic thinkpad coming back.
Miracle is when one's cancer stops dead in its tracks and advances no further on its own accord.

What we're dealing with here is a business calculation. A somewhat unusual one for sure. But regardless of how the cards end up falling in the end, it's a win-win-win for Lenovo.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

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Re: RetroThinkPad survey #4 of 4 *** FINAL SURVEY **

#30 Post by bhtooefr » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:36 am

It's also worth noting that Apple's lineup is much, much smaller, forcing people into the models that Apple wants to sell.

Apple's lineup, today, for tablets and laptops, in increasing size:

iPad mini 3
iPad Air 2
MacBook Air (11-inch, Early 2015)
MacBook (Early 2015)
MacBook Air (13-inch, Early 2015)
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015)
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012) - yes, they're still selling this thing, it's their only laptop with an optical drive
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015)

That's the entire lineup.

Here's just the ThinkPads, in just the US market, not the rest of Lenovo's line. And, while they market the 11e Chromebooks as separate models, I'm not counting them in this list, as AFAIK they're the same hardware as the 11e (Intel) and the Yoga 11e.

ThinkPad 10
ThinkPad Helix 2nd Gen
ThinkPad 11e (Intel)
ThinkPad 11e (AMD)
ThinkPad Yoga 11e
ThinkPad X250
ThinkPad Yoga 12 2nd Gen
ThinkPad X1 Carbon
ThinkPad E455 (AMD)
ThinkPad E450 (Intel)
ThinkPad L440 - still selling it
ThinkPad L450
ThinkPad T450s
ThinkPad T450
ThinkPad T440p - still selling it
ThinkPad E555 (AMD)
ThinkPad E550 (Intel)
ThinkPad L540 - still selling it
ThinkPad Yoga 15 1st Gen
ThinkPad W550s
ThinkPad T540p - still selling it
ThinkPad W541

And, Lenovo has at least that many models not sold under the ThinkPad brand in the US, and then I believe they have some China-specific models. This is why you can't have 4:3 - to get it, every 14" ThinkPad in that list (the E455, E450, L440, L450, T450s, T450, and T440p - although, to be fair, the L440 and T440p are almost certainly on their way out) would need to be discontinued, and replaced with one or two models - either a T460 with one CPU option, or a T460p and a T460s with quad and dual core options respectively. And, that would leave Lenovo with no low-end ThinkPad in the 14" class - which, that strategy works for Apple, not having a low-end machine in a class, but there are a lot of businesses that don't want the top of the line and would go elsewhere, because they'd buy L450s or whatever.
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21

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