Take a look at our
ThinkPads.com HOME PAGE
For those who might want to contribute to the blog, start here: Editors Alley Topic
Then contact Bill with a Private Message

Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

Large picture files of Retro system may be posted here but please try to limit them to <200KB
Post Reply
Message
Author
dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 7215
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#1 Post by dr_st » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:16 pm

As a follow-up to the 'First impressions' I've conducted some comparisons of the TP25 with a few other 14" Thinkpads I have - the T430s, T410 and Yoga 14 (20FY). Since the TP25 is essentially a T470 with a classic keyboard, most of the points here are relevant when comparing the T470 to any of the other machines.

To keep it short and under the size limit, all pictures are thumbnails. Click on them for full-size versions.

Thinkpad 25 vs T430s with FHD IPS and classic keyboard mod

This is probably the most interesting head-to-head, between the best 'classic' Thinkpad you can get with a 7-row keyboard and the best (well, the only) modern Thinkpad you can get with a 7-row keyboard. Olangu already posted a comparison between TP25 and T430s, but that T430s did not have the IPS mod; I will try not to repeat it, but complement it with my own observations.

The TP25 is somewhat slimmer than the T430s. The difference at the front is small, but more pronounced from the back side, as the TP25 has uniform thickness, while T430s is thicker at the back. Weight comparison is trickier, because it depends on the batteries. The TP25 is 1.68kg with 3-cell internal + 3-cell external battery. The T430s with a 6-cell external + 3-cell bay battery is about 1.86kg, but with a travel bezel in place of the bay battery it's only 1.63kg. You can get all sorts of numbers if you play with different battery/Ultrabay combinations, but it's fair to say the the TP25 is lighter for comparable battery life (since it can live on a 3+3 cell roughly as long as the T430s on its 6+3 cell). Still, you will likely feel the difference in thickness more than the difference in weight. Keep in mind that the TP25 is a T470 shell, not the slim T470s, yet it still beats the slim T430s of 4 generations back.

The TP25 also feels more sturdy and firm, which is generally true about CS13 Thinkpads compared to their CS09 counterparts, due to different materials and chassis design. It may not necessarily be more durable, just feels so.

In terms of dimensions, the TP25/T470 is slightly narrower and about the same depth. There is almost no difference in footprint. The main difference is the lid opening mechanism. T430s like all older Thinkpads has the hinges in the lid, whereas TP25 has them in the base. When the lid opens, the screen sits behind the laptop base and not above it, contributing to a lower-profile machine. I guess it's good if you are trying to use it in a tight airplane seat, but other than that I can't find significant advantages. One disadvantage is that it forces a design where the laptop has no ports on the back (I at least would prefer the charging port there), and an extended battery cannot be placed there - it has to go under the machine, which raises the back significantly. I understand that this design choice may be due to the limitations imposed by placement of components inside the lid, but somehow the larger workstation Thinkpads (P-series) avoided it. Perhaps because they have thicker lids? The LCD lid on the TP25 is very thin indeed, but does not feel fragile. Also, because it's so thin, you can actually open it a full 180 degrees flat on the table, as it fits under the base.

Image Image Image Image

Image Image Image Image

Image Image Image Image

Much has been said about the low brightness of the TP25 LCD (IVO R140NWF5 R1). It's true, and is evident when comparing side-by-side with the AHVA LCD (AUO B140HAN01.2) in the T430s. In the pictures above, the two left ones are maximum brightness, and the two right ones are with the T430s knocked down a few notches to achieve equal brightness. Still, it does not feel like it would be a practical problem, unless you plan to use the laptop outdoors. The last pictures compares the backlit keyboard of the TP25 to the Thinklight of the T430s. The backlight is more uniform across the keyboard, but the Thinklight can also light around the keyboard. It would be best to have both (especially with two Thinklights as David Hill once proposed).

The T430s has multiple service panels at the bottom to access RAM and hard-drive, whereas the TP25/T470 require the entire bottom panel to be removed to access everything. So some maintenance tasks will be easier, others harder. The docking connector is smaller yet again on the CS13 machines, continuing the tradition of shrinking it for every generation since the original IBM Thinkpads.

Thinkpad 25 vs Thinkpad Yoga 14

The Yoga 14 belongs to my wife and has been her primary system for approximately 1.5 years now. This particular model (20FY), for whatever reason, is obscure and hard to find on Lenovo's webpages. It seems to share some aspects of the Yoga 460, even has the same FRU BOM, but it's black like the other Thinkpad Yoga 14 models. It's a full-fledged 2-in-1, hence the beefy hinges around the lid and the base. The base and the lid cannot overlap, so when open 180 degrees it has a bigger footprint, but that's not a position one would use a laptop in anyways. Other than that, it's practically the same dimensions than the TP25/T470, but at 1.91kg, significantly heavier. This is probably a combination of heavier materials (it feels like there is more metal in the construction), the beefy 2-in-1 mechanism, and the active digitizer (the Yoga supports both pen and touch inputs, unlike TP25/T470 which support only touch).

On the right side of the Yoga 14 you see the annoying idiotic tiny power button which is hard to reach compared to a normally placed button next to the keyboard. It is also right next to the hardware volume buttons, so expect to press it accidentally while trying to fiddle with the volume. :BAAAD!: On the left you see the Lenovo OneLink+ docking connector (being a 2-in-1, a docking connector on the bottom are impossible), which can also be used for a proprietary Ethernet dongle (there is an integrated LAN chip on the motherboard, but not an RJ45 connector on the chassis). There are also plenty of other ports, including HDMI and mini-DP (no Thunderbolt) - a lot like on the T470p, it seems. It is overall a very nice machine to use; my wife has been pretty happy with it, despite the weight.

Image Image Image

Image Image Image

The screen on this Yoga 14 is also an FHD IPS touch, but with glossy coating and an active digitizer for pen input support (the pen is hidden inside the base). The panel is an SDC LTN140HL05-901. It is not brighter than the TP25 screen, and may even be a little dimmer. Because the screen is glossy (reflective) it does not diffuse light, and so does not illuminate the keyboard as much as the matte screen on the TP25, but, of course, keyboard backlight is available.

One difference between the TP25 and other modern Thinkpads, including this Yoga 14, is that the red dot above the i in the base logo does not light up when the laptop is on - instead the power button on the keyboard is lit; the red dot on the lid, however, does light up, which gives you indication when the lid is closed. The same holds for the pulsating behavior when the laptop is in standby.

Thinkpad 25 vs T410

If you ignore the screen ratio and keyboard aspects, this comparison is interesting, if only to see the changes 6 laptop generations have brought us (think T410 vs T470, both are mainstream T-series, not the 'slim', nor the 'professional' variant). The TP25/T470 is so much slimmer that it is not even funny. The entire machine is about the thickness of the T410 base. It is also slightly shorter without being wider. OK, T410 was the thickest 14" T series since the T30, but the new machine is also much lighter at 1.68kg versus 2.12kg with same number of battery cells, and that if you give up the optical drive.

Considering the expansion capabilities of TP25/T470 vs T410: instead of VGA and DisplayPort you have Thunderbolt and HDMI, which is more modern; 3 USB ports instead of 4, but Thunderbolt doubles as USB-C, and all USB ports are 3.0; you lose eSATA and Ultrabay, but can now configure dual internal storage with SATA+NVMe; you lose ExpressCard, which you could probably use to add rarely used ports, such as Firewire or eSATA. While there are definitely use cases where the older machine will shine, on average the newer one is better equipped to handle modern technologies.

Image Image Image
Last edited by dr_st on Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current: Thinkpad 25 (20K7), Yoga 14 (20FY), X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, T60 1952-F76, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

Ibthink
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 745
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am
Location: Gelnhausen, Germany

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#2 Post by Ibthink » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Nice comparison! :thumbs-UP: One small thing: The glowing red dot on the palmrest was first introduced with the SL-series and carried over to the Edge series. The Yoga 14 is a descendant of the Edge series*, which explains the glowing red dot on the palmrest.

When the glowing red dot was introduced into the T series, it was only ever used on the display lid, which is true for all ThinkPads of the newer CS15/16 generation (maybe except the E series, not sure). So its in fact the Yoga 14 that is special, not the ThinkPad 25.

*Edge -> Edge E220s/E420s -> S430 -> S431/S531/S440/S540 -> Yoga 14/Yoga 15 -> Yoga 460 – if you look up details about the Yoga, you will often find that in China, the name "S3" (or S1 in case of the Yoga 12 and S5 in case of the Yoga 15) was used.
IBM ThinkPad R50e | lenovo ThinkPad X301 | lenovo ThinkPad Z61t

Tasurinchi
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 2055
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:38 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#3 Post by Tasurinchi » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:44 am

Very nice review! Thanks for sharing... and I guess there will be room for another T430s comparison once the 2K mod is out :wink:
IBM Convertible 5140/L40SX/220/240/240X/2*340CSE/360PE/365XD/380D/380E/380XD/380Z/390/560E/560X/2*570/2*600/600E/750Cs/755C/760CD/760EL/760XD/770E
A20p/A22p/A31/i1600/G40/R50p/R61i/S30/SL510/2*T22/4*T4x/11*T6x/6*T40x/6*T5x0/3*W5x0/W700/3*X2x/4*X3x/3*X4x/5*X6x/3*X6xT/12*X2xx/4*X30x/Z60m/3*Z61x

amardeep
Freshman Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Winchester, United Kingdom

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#4 Post by amardeep » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:42 pm

How do you like the keyboard on the T25 ? Close enough to the T410 ?

I know the new one is meant to be slightly different, so is it noticeably worse, very similar, slightly different but not necessarily worse or better, or just better ? While we're at it, what do you think about the 'island-style' keyboard on the T430s ?

dr_st
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 7215
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#5 Post by dr_st » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:43 am

I like the keyboard of the Thinkpad 25, and yes, I find it close enough to the old classic keyboards. You can read more in my 'First Impressions' review (link at the top of the first post) as well as Bibin's review (link in my 'First Impressions' review).

I don't like the island keyboards, not because of the island design, but because of the 6-row layout, which, to me, is limiting. That's why my T430s has the classic keyboard mod.
Current: Thinkpad 25 (20K7), Yoga 14 (20FY), X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, T60 1952-F76, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

amardeep
Freshman Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Winchester, United Kingdom

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#6 Post by amardeep » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:16 am

Thanks for the info !

w0qj
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 pm
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#7 Post by w0qj » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:55 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:43 am
I like the keyboard of the Thinkpad 25, and yes, I find it close enough to the old classic keyboards. ...
Wow, it is GOOD to hear that ThinkPad 25 keyboard is close enough to older classic keyboards!

dr_st wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:43 am
I don't like the island keyboards, not because of the island design, but because of the 6-row layout, which, to me, is limiting. ...
Amen!
Daily Driver: X1 Carbon 4th Gen (X1C4): i7-6600U 2.6GHz; 16GB DDR3 1866 MHz; 1TB PCIe-NVMe SSD; 14" WQHD 2560x1440; LTE EM7455 Mobile Broadband; Win7 Pro 64bit
Current Thinkpads: X1C4 | X1C3 | X250 | X230 | T410
Retired Thinkpads: T42 | 560 (circa 1996)
~~IBM Thinkpad era computer bag !

gofishus
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:03 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Thinkpad 25 vs T410, T430s, Yoga 14 (PICS)

#8 Post by gofishus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:30 pm

dr_st wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:43 am
I like the keyboard of the Thinkpad 25, and yes, I find it close enough to the old classic keyboards. You can read more in my 'First Impressions' review (link at the top of the first post) as well as Bibin's review (link in my 'First Impressions' review).

I don't like the island keyboards, not because of the island design, but because of the 6-row layout, which, to me, is limiting. That's why my T430s has the classic keyboard mod.
Thanks for the review, I myself have the TP25 and X61 as well and definitely have same thoughts as your TP25/T410 comparison. On a side note - have we ever seen a 7 row chiclet keyboard before in any laptop? It seems 7 row keyboards moved to 6 rows before chiclet keyboards became more popular so a 7row island style chiclet keyboard was never available i think
2017 TP25 | 2016 X1 Yoga | 2014 X240 | 2007 X61

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “T25-Retro Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest