Up line how far?

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JimL · #1 Post by **JimL** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:22 am

I've had a TP 770E for a while, running Win98. It did the job fine until recently, when the NIC and modem (PCMCIA combo card) both died.

The 770 has only 96mb of memory and is, of course, slow and the drive is small. Because of this, and since I haven't found anyone to point me to a reliable replacement for the combo, I'm considering a new (to me) laptop.

I've looked at T23, T30 and T40. And, of course, there are higher T's. Is there a point in the TP lineup at which the power and resources are wasted on Win98? (Win98 is plenty of OS for me on this backup machine.)

davidspalding · #2 Post by **davidspalding** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:42 am

I would suggest that you accept the OS that comes with a new TP. Beside the fact that Win98 is far less stable, capable, and secure than XP SP2, many of the utilities that your new TP would come with, and arguably need, will not run on 98.

Support for 98 will also run out in the future. Not sure when (I know MS has a page on technet about it, but ... where, I dunno).

I know, 98 was the last of the nice, well-patched Win 9x line, but Win2000 and XP are considerable improvements, with minimal loss of support.

JimL · #3 Post by **JimL** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:13 pm

davidspalding wrote:I would suggest that you accept the OS that comes with a new TP.

I can't afford and don't need a new TP. Of course you're not the first to insist that I don't want what does the job for me - the OS I have. It only a backup computer anyway, essentially an email machine and browser.

But that's beside the point. I asked the question I wanted the answer to - not whether I should have a newer OS. I can have people tell me I should have hot/new any time anywhere. Sorry, but I get so tired of it.

Website · #4 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:48 pm

The T23 is about as far as I would go with Win98SE.

I think part of what davidspalding was trying to say, it that these "newer" machines are meant to run on a "newer" OS. There are certain features that are available only with using Win2000 or WinXP. For example, the Software Installer program that downloads and installs everything for you. Another is the Power Management Package....controlling battery life might be important to you, but then again it might not.

After about the T23 (in the T series), everything was made for 2000 or better. Another problem that you might run into is the driver issue. IBM generally only provides drivers for the OS that the machine was made for, or newer. You may end up with portions of your system that just won't run without 2000/XP.

I will agree with you on being happy with 98SE, it was my favorite for a very long time. I found it to be far more stable than any other OS, except XP. Though others prefer 2000, I had freezing issues all of the time on several different laptops.

LtTPfan · #5 Post by **LtTPfan** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:23 pm

I agree with tfflivemb2, I wouldn't go beyond the T23 if I intended to use Win98 as it was the last of the T-series to come loaded with 98, 98SE at that, and only 3 of 48 models as far as I can descern. As mentioned, you may run into driver/support issues.

I don't want to put words into his mouth but what I think davidspalding meant to say was, "I would stick with the OS that originally came with the machine you choose when it was new." In other words, if the machine originally only came loaded with XP or 2000, stick with those for the reasons mentioned above. I don't believe he was advocating the purchase of a "new" machine, just referring to what is new to you.

dsvochak · #6 Post by **dsvochak** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:35 pm

If your problem is the PC Combo card, there are a number of them available on ebay (see this item for example http://cgi.ebay.com/3COM-MEGAHERTZ-3CCE ... dZViewItem )

If you want a new[er] machine, tfflivemb2's comments are on point. There were T21's sold with Win 98 installed, whether that was true for later models I don't know, but the IBM software & device driver matrix for T22 & T23's list drivers for pretty much everything back to Win 95.

Another issue, according to PC Magazines original articles about Win XP, is, processors above about 800 mhz ran much faster with W2k or XP than with W98. Something to consider.

davidspalding · #7 Post by **davidspalding** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:47 pm

Happy new year to you, too...

JimL wrote:
davidspalding wrote:I would suggest that you accept the OS that comes with a new TP.
I can't afford and don't need a new TP. Of course you're not the first to insist that I don't want what does the job for me - the OS I have. It only a backup computer anyway, essentially an email machine and browser.

But that's beside the point. I asked the question I wanted the answer to - not whether I should have a newer OS. I can have people tell me I should have hot/new any time anywhere. Sorry, but I get so tired of it.

Hey, I can understand how those who don't understand your question precisely can try to provide a response anyway. And if that response just doesnt' jive with your expectations, you can get tired of it. And a bit snarky. I do too, from time to time. It's normal. It's also ... a great way to limit the number of people who answer your posts in the future.

I clearly misunderstood your question, if what you meant to ask was, "What's the highest level used TP that I can run Win98 on?" I can empathize that making up the same system on a zippier machine has some appeal. So based on this new understanding that we've achieved, I recommended was not "hot/new," but use the OS that came with it. So you ought to review the older TABOOKS (check forum FAQ #1; that directory has a PDF book of discontinued models, I think), and see what was the lastest TPs to ship with Win98 SE on it.

What I meant to convey was that Win2000/XP are more SECURE operating systems, as well as stable. Depending on what versions of IE and Outlook Express (if that's what you use) you can upgrade to on Win98, there are circumstances when your configuration may open you up to vulnerabilities that are fixed in later OS', Win2K for instance. E.g., if I got even T30 and it shipped with Win2k, I'd want to stick with that to ensure it ran the way IBM meant it to.

Of course, you have your own goal here, and I wish you the very best of luck with it.

leoblob · #8 Post by **leoblob** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:03 pm

davidspalding wrote:Hey, I can understand how those who don't understand your question precisely can try to provide a response anyway. And if that response just doesnt' jive with your expectations, you can get tired of it. And a bit snarky. I do too, from time to time. It's normal. It's also ... a great way to limit the number of people who answer your posts in the future.

I agree. I think Mr. L's snotty response to Mr. Spalding's original attempt to help, is totally uncalled for. I have quite a bit of experience running WIN98 on various older machines, and I sure don't feel like offering any assistance/ideas on this post.

#9 Post by **GomJabbar** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:47 pm

Snotty? Another thread on this.

EDIT: I think I hit a nerve!

#10 Post by **JaneL** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:00 pm

Back it down a notch, all of you.

#11 Post by **Kyocera** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:36 pm

when the NIC and modem (PCMCIA combo card) both died.

Why not just get a new PCMCIA?

98 would fly on any of the machines you listed, therefore, the "wasted" part of the question would be entirely subjective.

JimL · #12 Post by **JimL** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:53 pm

davidspalding wrote:Happy new year to you, too...

Hey, I can understand how those who don't understand your question precisely can try to provide a response anyway. And if that response just doesnt' jive with your expectations, you can get tired of it. And a bit snarky. I do too, from time to time. It's normal. It's also ... a great way to limit the number of people who answer your posts in the future.

I clearly misunderstood your question, if what you meant to ask was, "What's the highest level used TP that I can run Win98 on?" I can empathize that making up the same system on a zippier machine has some appeal. So based on this new understanding that we've achieved, I recommended was not "hot/new," but use the OS that came with it. So you ought to review the older TABOOKS (check forum FAQ #1; that directory has a PDF book of discontinued models, I think), and see what was the lastest TPs to ship with Win98 SE on it.

What I meant to convey was that Win2000/XP are more SECURE operating systems, as well as stable. Depending on what versions of IE and Outlook Express (if that's what you use) you can upgrade to on Win98, there are circumstances when your configuration may open you up to vulnerabilities that are fixed in later OS', Win2K for instance. E.g., if I got even T30 and it shipped with Win2k, I'd want to stick with that to ensure it ran the way IBM meant it to.

Of course, you have your own goal here, and I wish you the very best of luck with it.

I apologize for the curtness. I stay behind the technology curve because it's cheaper and I can't afford to throw money around on a social security check. And I am ALWAYS having people tell me I MUST get newer this or that - always telling me I don't want what I'm asking for or about. I'm no genius, but I've been at it since the late 70's and know a thing or two about the concepts.

I'll look for the .pdf book.

As for the stability and security, I've found that with a firewall, a good anti-virus program, a spy removal program and staying as far as possible from Explorer and Microsoft in general, I haven't had a crash in over a year.

I don't know about security. There is a security update out every couple of months and I get them all. And I use the 770E very rarely - only to back up my desktop.

What comes with the machine. Those with no operating system loaded cost considerably less, so would be more likely affordable anyway.

Nevertheless, if I can find a T30 with OS that I can afford I'll probably get it just to have a better matched setup. That's more likely to happen with an older T30 with W2K, even tho the newer T30's are faster. T40 doesn't seem to have much over T30 according to my research and going into later machines just costs too much.

As for W2K, I'm hearing praise that contradicts a lot I heard when it was new. (Except, of course, in comparison to ME.) Is it really that good?

Thanks for your post

#13 Post by **Kyocera** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:01 pm

Windows 2000 is a good stable OS, I think the fact that they still sell it at retail stores is a good indication of its popularity and longevity. It costs more than XP Home

.

I love my T30 so I recommend it, but I still am curious why you could not replace your NIC/Modem combo and keep on going with win98

JimL · #14 Post by **JimL** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:10 pm

Kyocera wrote:
when the NIC and modem (PCMCIA combo card) both died.
Why not just get a new PCMCIA? 98 would fly on any of the machines you listed, therefore, the "wasted" part of the question would be entirely subjective.

New PCMCIA. This one is virtually new itself. I'd definitely want a different brand, and the driver situation looks even worse in that direction. And since this 770E has no integrated modem or NIC I'd need a combo card, which would be a third the cost of a middle aged TP with integrated adapters by itself. Plus I need more memory. To boot, having 2 USB ports, etc. can't be all bad. I think it's time.

jongordo8 · #15 Post by **jongordo8** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:27 pm

T21,T22,T23 can be had for pretty cheap. I would suggest either of those. They will all run 98 extremely well, and have all the necessary requirements of what you are looking for.

The benefits of the T23 vs. a T21 or T22 are simply this:
1)Dual USB, while the T21 and T22 have a single USB.
2)Max memory is 1gb, while T21 and T22 have max of 512mb.
3)FSB is 133mhz vs T21 and T22 run at 100mhz.
4)Video ram is 16mb vs 8mb on T21 and T22

All these computers will provide you with enough power to run 2000/XP if you ever wanted to in the future, so that is also a possibility for the future.

I think going with a T30 or T40 would be a waste of money as the T20 series can handle everything you are looking for and can run 98 extremely well on it.

Good luck, ebay is a great place to look. I have bought 2 ebay computers and were happy with both.

Website · #16 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:20 am

JimL wrote:Nevertheless, if I can find a T30 with OS that I can afford I'll probably get it just to have a better matched setup.

FWIW, if you find a T30, T40 or whatever, WITHOUT an OS, keep in mind that there are many nice people in the forum that might be willing to copy a set of their Recovery/Restore disks for the price of shipping (maybe $5). This would give you the OS that your system was made for, thus causing less problems with the devices....without having to shell out $100+ for an OS.

LtTPfan · #17 Post by **LtTPfan** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:29 am

tfflivemb2 wrote:FWIW, if you find a T30, T40 or whatever, WITHOUT an OS, keep in mind that there are many nice people in the forum that might be willing to copy a set of their Recovery/Restore disks for the price of shipping (maybe $5). This would give you the OS that your system was made for, thus causing less problems with the devices....without having to shell out $100+ for an OS.

Would you have to have the COA sticker for this? I thought about trying this route so I'd have all the original IBM apps (I don't think you can download all of them, for instance, I didn't find PC Doctor for Windows, only the DOS disk and patches). My T30 doesn't have a sticker. The OS is no problem as I have a corp license for 80 machines, but didn't think that key would work with the Thinkpad install, I'd have to install my copy anyway but that's just a guess.

davidspalding · #18 Post by **davidspalding** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:23 am

I really kinda meant that if you found a T30 for your budget, and the "built for... " sticker indicates that T30 was certified on Win2k, that you'd get the most bang for your buck using Win2k on it ... drivers and such from IBM probably being certified on that, too, and Win98 might not support some or many of them.

An anecdotal note ... I have an old (?) HP Omnibook 800CT, a truly superb machine when it was released, and still swankodelic when I bought it on the cheap in 1998. It was originally shipped with Win 3.1, later certified and released with Win98 (which I ran on it), but later certified (without modification) by HP for Win NT 4.0. It was that well designed. The 800CT was the last of the line from the "OmniGo" series, and they went out with a bang.

So I ran Win98 SE on it for several years, first as my mobile computer, later as a back-of-the-LAN print server, etc. I finally wiped it and installed Win2K on it (which runs without a glitch) so that I could use it for an SMTP server, Ident responder, etc. I had hopes of sharing a 120GB OneTouch drive on it, but the Maxtor drivers don't work on it (though the USB2.0 card in the docking station works like a champ). Now, as you can guess, Win2k runs pretty doggone slow on it. But it runs, and where Win98 would hang or crash every few months, Win2k is up non-stop. Now that I have a faster laptop, I'm thinking of putting Gentoo Linux on it. Most Linuxes will run superbly on it.

All this to prove a point ... YES, you're right, if you only boot up an older TP to do some e-mail, etc., Win98 fits the bill. But if you get a model that will run Win2k comfortably, my answer is YES, Win2k is very stable, and very reliable. You also will have better driver support. Throwing 98 on a system that was built for 2000 will be crippling it in some way.

Other reasons I would recommend Win2k over Win98: for one, Win98 extended support ends this June. That means that fixes and patches from Microsoft won't be forthcoming after that. Another, Win2k has been out quite a while, and the latest service pack and hotfixes resolve tons of issues the kinds of which are still being found in XP. That is, Windows 2000 is MATURE.

I also run at the back of the tech curve, have only started using XP daily because it came on my TP. (Also, I have a full copy of Win2k, and Office 2k SR1, and had no need to buy later versions when my primary computer was a 1998 Dell Dimension XPS300D (Pentium II 300).) So I DO appreciate your perspective. Frankly, I'd set your budget, find out what you can afford to get, and if it's a T23 which shipped with Win98, ta-da, you've found your new system. If you find a T30 which shipped with Win2k, I'd get comfy with that.

BTW, I have an old Ositech Jack of Diamonds combo modem/Ethernet PCMCIA card, I haven't used it in years, but you can have it for the cost of shipping. I think the drivers I have are for Win98, too. PM me if you'd like to take it off my hands.

dsvochak · #19 Post by **dsvochak** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:01 pm

1. You may want to read this thread for a nice concise comparison on the various T models:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

2. If there is no COA sticker on your machine, you can go here: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/product.do?
select "Detect my system" and you will be taken to a screen that describes the machines original configuration, including OS.

3. Regarding tfflivemb2's comments about recovery CD's and LtTPfan's response, an excerpt from the MS OEM EULA "The SOFTWARE is licensed with the HARDWARE as a single integrated product and may only be used with the HARDWARE." The EULA does not contain a reference to "Certificate of Authenticity" or 'COA".

I read this to mean a number of things. First, you can't use the software that came with the machine on another machine. Second, the rights to use the software follow the machine. Third, you don't need a "COA" for the software.

The implication here is the owner of the machine has the right to install, using the recovery CD's, the OS that was originally provided with the machine at purchase (or what MS calls in the EULA "Downgrade Software" being a previous OS) whether the machine has a COA sticker or not.

LtTPfan · #20 Post by **LtTPfan** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:13 pm

dsvochak wrote:I read this to mean a number of things. First, you can't use the software that came with the machine on another machine. Second, the rights to use the software follow the machine. Third, you don't need a "COA" for the software.

Perhaps I should have asked if I would need the license key located on the COA sticker for activation/updates, etc, or is the key never required?

dsvochak · #21 Post by **dsvochak** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:38 pm

See these posts for a discussion of activation, product keys, etc:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... activation
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... activation

JimL · #22 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:29 am

jongordo8 wrote:T21,T22,T23 can be had for pretty cheap. I would suggest either of those. They will all run 98 extremely well, and have all the necessary requirements of what you are looking for.

The benefits of the T23 vs. a T21 or T22 are simply this:
1)Dual USB, while the T21 and T22 have a single USB.
2)Max memory is 1gb, while T21 and T22 have max of 512mb.
3)FSB is 133mhz vs T21 and T22 run at 100mhz.
4)Video ram is 16mb vs 8mb on T21 and T22

<SNIP>

Thanks. I've spent time on the net looking at stuff, but a quick overview from a user like this is much more useful to me.

JimL · #23 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:37 am

tfflivemb2 wrote:
JimL wrote:Nevertheless, if I can find a T30 with OS that I can afford I'll probably get it just to have a better matched setup.
FWIW, if you find a T30, T40 or whatever, WITHOUT an OS, keep in mind that there are many nice people in the forum that might be willing to copy a set of their Recovery/Restore disks for the price of shipping (maybe $5). This would give you the OS that your system was made for, thus causing less problems with the devices....without having to shell out $100+ for an OS.

Thanks. Some day I'll have to try that kind of thing again. This 770E came without an OS and I got a recovery CD or at least something similar off eBay. I could never figure out how to make it work. I think I needed a floppy to go along with it? I didn't have a floppy drive at that time. I ended up buying a CD with COA.

JimL · #24 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:57 am

davidspalding wrote:
<SNIP>

if you get a model that will run Win2k comfortably, my answer is YES, Win2k is very stable, and very reliable. You also will have better driver support. Throwing 98 on a system that was built for 2000 will be crippling it in some way.

Windows 2000 is MATURE.

<SNIP>

Thanks. I'm starting to get the picture which is what I came here for. Inoted at one point that I might get a T30. All things considered, including price, I think a T23 will do the job "best".

JimL · #25 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:07 pm

jongordo8 wrote:T21,T22,T23 can be had for pretty cheap. I would suggest either of those. They will all run 98 extremely well, and have all the necessary requirements of what you are looking for.

The benefits of the T23 vs. a T21 or T22 are simply this:
1)Dual USB, while the T21 and T22 have a single USB.

I've found that some T23's have 2 USB ports and some have only 1. Would this be the difference between the 2647 and the 2648?

If so or if not, just what do the 2647 and 2648 numbers mean or where can I find info on it. I've found on Google that there a quarter of a million hits for 2647 and about 15K 2648 hits.

JimL · #26 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:12 pm

dsvochak wrote:If your problem is the PC Combo card, there are a number of them available on ebay (see this item for example http://cgi.ebay.com/3COM

<SNIP>

Is 3Com as stingy with older drivers as Intel is? Intel really slams the door on non-production items.

dsvochak · #27 Post by **dsvochak** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:18 pm

All T23's have 2 USB ports. See this link:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... IGR-4YTG43

just what do the 2647 and 2648 numbers mean or where can I find info on it

I'm not sure IBM/Lenovo can adequately explain the difference between 2647 & 2648. For info on a particular Thinkpad you can go here http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... idate=true and select what you're interested in with the drop down boxes.

As far as 3com drivers, I have no idea. I was just using that as an example of what's available.

LtTPfan · #28 Post by **LtTPfan** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:48 pm

JimL wrote: Is 3Com as stingy with older drivers as Intel is? Intel really slams the door on non-production items.

You have to go to 3Com's archive section for older stuff but, no, they are not stingy. A couple of weeks ago I downloaded a driver for a rather old US Robotics PC card that was purchased long before 3Com bought them out.

JimL · #29 Post by **JimL** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:59 pm

LtTPfan wrote:
JimL wrote: Is 3Com as stingy with older drivers as Intel is? Intel really slams the door on non-production items.
You have to go to 3Com's archive section for older stuff but, no, they are not stingy. A couple of weeks ago I downloaded a driver for a rather old US Robotics PC card that was purchased long before 3Com bought them out.

Thank you.

Up line how far?

Up line how far?

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