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Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

Old(er) Thinkpads with New(er) Intestines: X62 / T50 / T70 / etc.
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wujstefan
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Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#1 Post by wujstefan » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:15 pm

Well finally I've archieved my goal and obtained a T70 with a i7-7820HQ. Now, it's time to compare!

On the left:
T70
i7-7820HQ 4cores, 8 thresds, 2,9-3,9GHz
16 Gb of Hynix DDR4
256Gb NVMe SSD from Samsung
1600x1200 Boe-Hydis UXGA
W10pro
13.01.2018 BIOS
All the rest is very classic thingy

On the right:
T601p
P9600 (should and will be X9100)
8Gb of matched DDR2
240Gb of GOODRAM SSD
fx570m w/128Mb; board with full Penryn support (native)
ex-factory LED Hydis UXGA

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138318840 ... res/S82635

On full brightness:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138318840 ... res/F5379m

I was running this T601p for quite a while, and was extremely pleased with it - keybard quality, display... and the system was very responsive with SSD, nice CPU and 8gigs of RAM. The thingy, I was not happy with the battery life, heat and general push-up performance, plus there was a last chance to get a T70 - since this is the _LAST_ unit from the _LAST_ batch. There are no more of them, and - as I've be informed - there are no plans of launching another batch.

I did a quick test of both units, and am a bit surprised with the output I've got!

1. Performance.
Honestly, in general use (office, web, video, light gaming) apart from the ABSURDLY fast NVMe SSD there is no great difference. When it comes to demanding apps, Solidworks, Matlab, gaming, i7 uncovers its power. Intel 630hd also surprisingly does the job well.
2. Battery life.
One of the most important points for me - and I was a bit disappointed that T70 offers... almost same battery life as T601 w/power hungry fx570m!. I have tested both on new SANYO batteries, both 95000mWh (ok, one is 94996, and another is 950094). Here's what I've got:
- IDLE - T70 ate ~14000mW, T601 ~13500mW
- LIGHT LOAD (typing, surfing) - T70 ~24000mW, T601 ~33mW
- FULL LOAD (gaming) - T70 ~44000mW (with turbo boost) ~40000mW (turbo boost disabled), T601 ~46000mW.
NOTE: T70 has a CCFL screen, and T601 has a LED. I have successfully undervolted T70 by 0,11V, and fx570m on T601 works on 1,1V. After transplanting LED display to T70 I would expect better battery life on T70, and when I figure out how to underclock Kaby Lake, this should go down as well. Tuning will possibly work wonders.
3. Heat.
Another thing that surprised me a bit. Being used to T601 means being used to 75C under load, jumping to lower 80s when ambient is high (remember: GPU is undervolted!). T70 has presented me with... thermal shutdown after 10 minutes of test. Yup, over 100C, at two cores.
After undervolting a stress test w/ turbo enabled produced no more than 92C. Still a whopping whole lot of a heat! With no to light load it runs cool - very cool in fact; at around 40C, but the fan is all the time on.

T601 is equipped with 3-heatpipe, rare fan unit from T61p, and after testing a Noctua NT-H1 thermal compount produced best temps.
T70 is equipped with semi-stock (provided by 51nb) fan from T500, and Arctic NX4 turned out to work best on it.

Arctic Silver 5, Noctua NT-H1, Thermal Grizzly Cryonaut and Arctic NX4 were tested on all of those.

Well now, some - completely subjective - pros and cons of T70 compared to an old good frankie. Have in mind that this is only mine point of view, and some of the points may be useless for one while important for another.

PROS:
- FAST
- will keep up to date for many years (if the product lifetime is long enough)
- four (4) storage options, with 2x NVMe, 1x SATA-3, and one bay SATA option
- should have a better battery life when tuned properly
CONS:
- losing all the Lenovo software, incl. power manager
- not all conectors fit on their holes well
- some keys do not work as they are expected, bluetooth light is always off, fan is always on, only SATA devices allowable at ultrabay etc.
- this thing runs hot when under load
- no docking port :cry:

Special thanks for not disturbing to this guy while I was writing this small review.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138318840 ... res/o60mZE
Last edited by wujstefan on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

dr_st
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#2 Post by dr_st » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:08 pm

Thank you for the concise and informative review.

Battery life of the T70 vs T601 is more reasonable when you consider that you are comparing a quad core to a dual core. Overheating and thermal shutdown is less pleasant.

If my T60 (incidentally, I'm typing this post on it) ever dies, I may become interested in an Ultimate T601 Frankenpad such as yours. I don't think I will ever become interested in a T70. To each his own...
Current: Thinkpad 25 (20K7), Yoga 14 (20FY), X220 4291-4BG, T410 2537-R46, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G
Collectibles: T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X32 (IPS Screen)
Retired: X61 7673-V2V, T60 1952-F76, A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

theterminator93
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#3 Post by theterminator93 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:08 pm

Nice observations and quantitative data. For my part, a small observation about the battery life/power section. :)

The Watt hour (watts*hours) is an energy measurement of capacity, not drain (can theoretically deliver x Watts for 1 hour). Watts measure power, and amps measure current. Milli-Watts are also not commonly used to measure drain when you're into the tens-of-thousands. Just use Watts.

E.g.

Code: Select all

I have tested both on new SANYO batteries, both 95 Wh (ok, one is 94.996, and another is 95.094). Here's what I've got:
- IDLE - T70 ate ~14W, T601 ~13.5W
- LIGHT LOAD (typing, surfing) - T70 ~24 W, T601 ~33 W
- FULL LOAD (gaming) - T70 ~44 W (with turbo boost) ~40 W (turbo boost disabled), T601 ~46 W.
This allows you to extrapolate run-times using capacity (W*h) / draw (W) - in the equation, Watts cancel out and you are left with hours. E.g.

Code: Select all

 95 W*h / 14 W = 6.79 h
Daily: T25 | W520 i7-2860QM·Quadro 2000m·IPS FHD | T420 i7-2640M·NVS 4200m·IPS FHD | X220 i7-2640M | T601F T9900·NVS 140M·LED UXGA
Wife's: T61p T9500·2010 FX570m·WUXGA | X220T i7-2640M
Others: T61p·61·43·42p|X41T·24·23·22|G41|A31p·22m|i1200|TransNote|380D|365XD|701C|755C

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#4 Post by wujstefan » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:48 pm

theterminator93 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:08 pm
The Watt hour (watts*hours) is an energy measurement of capacity, not drain (can theoretically deliver x Watts for 1 hour). Watts measure power, and amps measure current. Milli-Watts are also not commonly used to measure drain when you're into the tens-of-thousands. Just use Watts.
Ah, perfectly right. I've had a brain fart. I stand corrected.

Right now I'm trying to further undervolt this baby, and honestly it seems dmn stable. I'd love to lock multiplier on some lower values for extra battery life when not on cable, but Kaby Lake does not seem to be fully supported by the apps yet :/
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

NonesensE
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#5 Post by NonesensE » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:01 am

Regarding the heat and power draw: Use BIOS version 170904 and switch on ASPM for all PCIe ports. This way you will get package c-state 8. They seem to switch off power saving features in newer BIOS versions to solve standby issues. I never use standby, so I just switched that off (otherwise, you need to remove the magnet from the display cable to prevent unexpected shutdowns at booting from standby).

With PC8 and an led screen, I get less than 10W idle power draw, lowest momentary reading was below 6W.
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, [s]T61[/s] T70 14" 4:3 1st batch

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#6 Post by wujstefan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:23 am

Well I need to make some furhter test really. I have succesfully reduced voltage on CPU by 0,15V (a big surprise), and on GPU core by 0,115V (even bigger surprise).

Temperature drops are HUGE. Under super-heavy load w/turbo on 82C is max with 23C ambient. I have some fan mod on my mind, but need to tweak software first.

I run 20180113 BIOS, and will tinker with it (a bit). Standby is pretty important to me, so most likely I'll try to enable XTU.
As for standby, closing the lid does not seem to do anything on my unit; I need to investigate and check what is wrong with it. Id does not disturb me (at all), but it's always good to know why something is not working.

What material have you used to cover the holes that are left after board transplant? Some blinders have been provided with X62 board, and I'd love to cut out the same for T70.
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

NonesensE
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Posts: 137
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:28 am
Location: GF/BS/OHA, Germany

Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#7 Post by NonesensE » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:55 pm

wujstefan wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:23 am
Well I need to make some furhter test really. I have succesfully reduced voltage on CPU by 0,15V (a big surprise), and on GPU core by 0,115V (even bigger surprise).

Temperature drops are HUGE. Under super-heavy load w/turbo on 82C is max with 23C ambient. I have some fan mod on my mind, but need to tweak software first.
Great! What kind of fan mod do you think about? I'm thinking about routing the heat pipes to where the copper block is but haven't yet had the time to try. Too many projects...
I run 20180113 BIOS, and will tinker with it (a bit). Standby is pretty important to me, so most likely I'll try to enable XTU.
As for standby, closing the lid does not seem to do anything on my unit; I need to investigate and check what is wrong with it. Id does not disturb me (at all), but it's always good to know why something is not working.
20180113? Are you sure? I only know of 180109 and 180115...

The standby issue with the 170904 bios is, that when you wake up the system by opening the lid, the system will crash. Do you need lid-induced standby? If not, simply remove the magnet from your display cable and you'll be fine. Wake-up via power button works flawlessly. If you insist on lid-induced standby, you have to use 171017 or newer, but don't use the 180115, that one uses much more power than all the others because it deactivates all package-c-states, even package-C3 and PC2.
What material have you used to cover the holes that are left after board transplant? Some blinders have been provided with X62 board, and I'd love to cut out the same for T70.
Someone posted 3D files for the T70 online but I haven't yet got around printing them. And I don't find them at the moment :oops:
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, [s]T61[/s] T70 14" 4:3 1st batch

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#8 Post by wujstefan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:35 am

NonesensE wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:55 pm
Great! What kind of fan mod do you think about? I'm thinking about routing the heat pipes to where the copper block is but haven't yet had the time to try. Too many projects...
Not quite. There is a nice and pretty easy mod for elitebook 8740w that seems feasible for the T500 fan as well. The heatpipe construction is very similar, and the problem there is very close to this on T70 - the fan could easily blow out all the heat, but it is not conducted well to the copper part, and the copper part itself seem to small to condence thermal energy. PM me for details if you like; I think I should have the link for 8740w mod. T70 mod should be pretty similar, and I will definietely work on it - and will share the results and howtos when I'm done.
I was also thinking about gringing couple of parts out of another copper alloy to conduct the heat better; but this need lots of testing.
20180113? Are you sure? I only know of 180109 and 180115...
Maybe I'm wrong, need to have a look when I'm back home. This is just out of my memory, and I've got this system loaded with this bios already.
The standby issue with the 170904 bios is, that when you wake up the system by opening the lid, the system will crash. Do you need lid-induced standby? If not, simply remove the magnet from your display cable and you'll be fine. Wake-up via power button works flawlessly. If you insist on lid-induced standby, you have to use 171017 or newer, but don't use the 180115, that one uses much more power than all the others because it deactivates all package-c-states, even package-C3 and PC2.
Do you have by any chance those BIOS files available, especially 170904 and 180109? I think they were only available by request. My lid-induced standby does not work (at all), I have no idea why, I really do not care much - but I did not open the lid to have a glimpse on the LCD tape yet.
Someone posted 3D files for the T70 online but I haven't yet got around printing them. And I don't find them at the moment :oops:
If you, at any point, have some time to find them, I'd be mor than grateful.
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#9 Post by wujstefan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 am

OK, I can confirm it's a 180113 BIOS. Looky on the pics:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kkP0c ... HrPHg5kcsP

I can't find any option to enable XTU or any other clock / multiplier control. However, there is a P-state setting in BIOS - should it be used up to that purpose?
It also seem to have fan control controlled on BIOS-level, but it simply does not make a match with reality, and I can't figure out how it works. My fan never turns off.
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

NonesensE
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#10 Post by NonesensE » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:28 pm

wujstefan wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:35 am
The standby issue with the 170904 bios is, that when you wake up the system by opening the lid, the system will crash. Do you need lid-induced standby? If not, simply remove the magnet from your display cable and you'll be fine. Wake-up via power button works flawlessly. If you insist on lid-induced standby, you have to use 171017 or newer, but don't use the 180115, that one uses much more power than all the others because it deactivates all package-c-states, even package-C3 and PC2.
Do you have by any chance those BIOS files available, especially 170904 and 180109? I think they were only available by request. My lid-induced standby does not work (at all), I have no idea why, I really do not care much - but I did not open the lid to have a glimpse on the LCD tape yet.
Here I uploaded all the BIOS versions I have:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nj91blgkrs077 ... S.rar?dl=0

You have to register at the 51nb forum to be able to download there. That's a bit tricky but possible with the help of google translate.

For some BIOS versions, they recommend to uninstall the ultranav driver windows automatically loaded and then manually install the driver for P50/P70, btw, so be prepared.
Someone posted 3D files for the T70 online but I haven't yet got around printing them. And I don't find them at the moment :oops:
If you, at any point, have some time to find them, I'd be mor than grateful.
I found it. Or at least one version. German forum user Pflugshaupt posted a set, see:
https://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/20780 ... ost2098444
You can't see the picture he posted when you're not registered, but the dropbox link works.
wujstefan wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 am
OK, I can confirm it's a 180113 BIOS. Looky on the pics:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kkP0c ... HrPHg5kcsP
Ok, either this is a version that didn't show up in the 51nb fourms or the 180115 BIOS was built two days earlier. I don't know and I won't flash the 180115 version again just to check that.
I can't find any option to enable XTU or any other clock / multiplier control. However, there is a P-state setting in BIOS - should it be used up to that purpose?
No. Go to the Advanced tab, then "OverClocking Performance Menu", then enable "OverClocking Feature". Now the "XTU Interface" option appears as well as various other options. This includes over-/undervolting options, too, even for RAM. My RAM is running fine this way at 1.1V instead of the usual 1.2V.
It also seem to have fan control controlled on BIOS-level, but it simply does not make a match with reality, and I can't figure out how it works. My fan never turns off.
Your fan will probably turn off as soon as you flash a BIOS version that supports package C-states...
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, [s]T61[/s] T70 14" 4:3 1st batch

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#11 Post by wujstefan » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:10 am

Wow. After DOWNGRADING the BIOS the temps have dropped by 12C under load to a 70C max at full turbo :o Power consumption has also dropped down to 11W (idle) and 38W (mean, load). The system does not accept such undervolting - actually I needed to get back to standard voltages due to stability reasons. When undervolted, the system has occasional problems starting (and I've had couple of freezes).

The fan is built terribly, but does its job. I will work on some other option, incl. grinding own block of copper, grind the welded block down to zero-state, apply a bit more conductive metal, polish it both ways, secure by some outer mounting.

The fan is almost always on (is there any controller like for X62?), but after two strikes of silicone oil in spray it is reasonably more quiet, so this does not disturb me.

Generally this thing needs some tweaking, but is blazing fast :)
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#12 Post by RMSMajestic » Wed May 09, 2018 3:31 pm

looks like I'm a little late to the party? lol
Still haven't get my hands on it, yet.
Chobits: W701ds i7-940|32G|FX3800m|Digitizer|Calibrator
Big ones: W701 top config T63p QX9300|8G|UXGA T61p dead, please go die as well nVIDIA
Small ones: X61sp P8800X61t SXGA X201 NIB
86 airplane models/ 27 ships/ 21 computers/ 300GB databases/ 0 girlfriend
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#13 Post by madicetea » Thu May 10, 2018 8:35 am

wujstefan wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:10 am
Wow. After DOWNGRADING the BIOS the temps have dropped by 12C under load to a 70C max at full turbo :o Power consumption has also dropped down to 11W (idle) and 38W (mean, load). The system does not accept such undervolting - actually I needed to get back to standard voltages due to stability reasons. When undervolted, the system has occasional problems starting (and I've had couple of freezes).

The fan is built terribly, but does its job. I will work on some other option, incl. grinding own block of copper, grind the welded block down to zero-state, apply a bit more conductive metal, polish it both ways, secure by some outer mounting.

The fan is almost always on (is there any controller like for X62?), but after two strikes of silicone oil in spray it is reasonably more quiet, so this does not disturb me.

Generally this thing needs some tweaking, but is blazing fast :)
May I ask what Silicone Oil Spray accomplishes in this mod? Also, I think it is amazing you know how to grind your own copper. I know we have a metalworking lab somewhere in my University, but I have no clue how to operate (nor design what I want) from the machinery.
Greetings from Tokyo,
IceWobs
, IBM Thinkpad Enthusiast

Daily Driver Thinkpads: X250 16gb
Under Construction: PC110
Occasional Use: X200 P8600 AFFS , piano black s30
For Sale: X200 P8700 base, X250 8gb Japanese kb, X250 FHD IPS Lid

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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#14 Post by TuuS » Thu May 10, 2018 1:02 pm

Forget the frankies, I want to hear more about little guy :)

wujstefan
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#15 Post by wujstefan » Fri May 11, 2018 2:33 pm

Icewobs wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:35 am
May I ask what Silicone Oil Spray accomplishes in this mod? Also, I think it is amazing you know how to grind your own copper. I know we have a metalworking lab somewhere in my University, but I have no clue how to operate (nor design what I want) from the machinery.
Nothing that special. Like this:
https://www.evike.com/products/24183/
OK, maybe a bit better quality ;)
About the cooling system - I was about to get this mod working, but there is a little fella on the way and I needed to get rid of most of my systems to make financial room for him.
RMSMajestic wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:31 pm
looks like I'm a little late to the party? lol
Still haven't get my hands on it, yet.
Well all in all I got rid of mine (SNIFF!). Will miss it, however...
TuuS wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:02 pm
Forget the frankies, I want to hear more about little guy :)
You have to wait... a little bit more - be sure I'll keep you informed ;) You may have noticed I'm now way less time online, and this is due to that fact :)
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

Pokrzept
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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#16 Post by Pokrzept » Sat May 12, 2018 7:00 pm

@wujstefan have you checked viscosity and density of silicone oils? I am not sure if that is best solution for this purpose - most of the silicone lubricants become fairly sticky after evaporation of the solvent. This may reduce fans overall performance and longevity. Please consider using high grade vaseline oils, especially those dedicated to sewing machines.
P70 / W530 / W700 and 30 more :roll:

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Re: Ultimate T70 and ultimate T601: face to face

#17 Post by wujstefan » Sun May 13, 2018 6:56 am

You got me there, I've mistaken the exact name. You have to accept my apologies on that, lots of kids, lots of work, lack of sleep ;)

It's VASELINE OIL, and this makes a big difference. Vaseline will not vapor out or gather dust, and is designed for way faster totating speeds. No matter sewing machines or any other purpose, these are the same - it's just a marketing move to buy them trice as expensive.
Dailies:
X201s - travel / garage
HP Elitebook 8770w (FHD IPS, SSD, Q4000M, 16Gb) - daily
Collectibles:
T43 (LED Flexview UXGA), Z60t, G41, R30, R50e, R61i
Under construction:
A31, R52p, T22, A22m, R40, T30, Z61m

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