Take a look at our
ThinkPads.com HOME PAGE
For those who might want to contribute to the blog, start here: Editors Alley Topic
Then contact Bill with a Private Message

Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

P1/P40/P50/P70 Series
Post Reply
Message
Author
newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#1 Post by newac » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:06 pm

After an extended time with the Lenovo Thinkpad P1 gen 3 it has become clear that Lenovo Group Limited has maliciously and deliberately crippled the firmware so that the product's M.2 PCIe slots do not operate correctly with NVMe SSD:s that have a capacity above 2TB.

When such an SSD is deployed,:
  • It is detected in the BIOS and printed on the boot screen, it says "NVMe Device: Sabrent Rocket Q"
  • The boot menu accessed via F12 shows the SSD, but booting Lenovo Group Limited have implemented active absolute interference so that the laptop cannot boot off it
  • In Windows' installer and in ordinary Windows use, Lenovo Group Limited's crippling causes the SSD to not show up and not function. The Windows Device Manager will show the SSD but as hidden and disabled.
SSD:s with capacity above 2TB are perfectly compliant with applicable standards. An argument that such SSD:s were physically too thick in the year of 2020 does not stand to reason. Such SSD:s also work perfectly well in older Thinkpad models.

This shows that Lenovo Inc. are liable of crippling my private property, which has led to losses of my time and money, and expectably the time and money of other persons out there.


Two questions for the community:

1) Is Lenovo Group Limited being actively prosecuted for this damage caused to customers' private property?


2) Are you aware of circumventions whereby the hostile crippling by Lenovo Group Limited can be reversed so that >2TB SSD:s are supported?


Lenovo Group Limited's actions are unacceptable and outrageous. Followup appreciated on remuneration for their damages as well as confirmation that the Lenovo Group Limited's harmful practice is stopped.



Update: Someone is alluding to that 4TB drives would work on the Thinkpad X1 Extreme gen 4 here https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... _soldered/ , however it is really unclear. If the claim is correct, it could mean that Lenovo's crippling is per SSD model or per another parameter than the capacity. This however does not mean a remedy for the damage on private property already caused by Lenovo's current and other firmware crippling.
Last edited by newac on Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 9416
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#2 Post by dr_st » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:51 pm

From reading your previous thread here as well as your thread on the Lenovo forums, and watching a review that clearly shows the Sabrent 8TB to be double-sided, I am not entirely sure that it is a firmware issue, and not just a hardware compatibility issue due to the slot space being marginal for the drive's thickness. Symptoms like your described (sometimes detected, sometimes not, or "detaches" during boot) indicate a physical/electrical problem most likely.

To answer your questions:
(1) I am not aware of any active lawsuits, class-action or others against Lenovo on this matter. You are free to try to start your own.
(2) I am not aware of any circumventions of whatever alleged limitation may exist in the firmware on this matter.

In any case, good luck with your endeavors, whichever path you take.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#3 Post by newac » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:05 pm

@dr_st , many thanks for responding. The question of if the SSD consumes too much power came up here https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... =1#5752858 and it should not be the case.

About the SSD being double-sided, it is indeed, however it still fits in the M.2 slot.

I deduced that the SSD is firmware-blocked rather than hindered by a hardware limit to the power supply, because up to a point you can use the SSD from Unix - however the Windows installer will not offer you to install to it, and in normal Windows operation the SSD shows up in Device Manager but as hidden and disabled.

If there was a power problem, the SSD should show up in the boot menu and the boot process run up to some point, shouldn't it.

The SSD works in a 2017 Thinkpad, which made me understand Lenovo added the firmware limits more recently.

With these observations added, do you still deduce that the problem is of electrical nature (rather than firmware interference)?

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 9416
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#4 Post by dr_st » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:11 pm

newac wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:05 pm
the Windows installer will not offer you to install to it
Maybe it is an installer configured in Legacy BIOS/MBR mode? You need UEFI/GPT to install onto any drive >2TB.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#5 Post by newac » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:13 pm

@dr_st , the BIOS on the Thinkpad P1 gen 3 has no MBR/legacy mode. E.g. see here https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobi ... _ug_en.pdf page 52 and on.

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#6 Post by newac » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:24 pm

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... =2#5752891 this poster says the Thinkpad P1 gen 5 has proper spacing at the M.2 slot for double-sided SSD:s and officially supports >2TB SSD:s. Waiting for confirmation in PDF specs. This would not be a reason for such SSD:s not to work on previous P1:s though.

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 23082
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Loch Garman, Éire
Contact:

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#7 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:18 pm

Have you included the Other HDD in the Boot Priority Order?
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#8 Post by newac » Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:39 am

@RealBlackStuff The 8TB SSD is first in the boot priority order, yes.

Here photos of the double sided SSD in an M.2 slot on the Thinkpad P1 gen 3, it looks ok:

Image

Image

Also note that the original thermal pads were left under the double-sided SSD and it still fit nicely. The thermal pad can with benefit be removed and replaced with non-conductive thermal gel.

Image

The SSD does also not work if you move it into the other M.2 slot, further substantiating that Lenovo have indeed crippled the firmware:

Image

(Uploaded into this forum post https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-P ... =2#5753294.)


In summary it's clear that Lenovo are crippling their firmware to the detriment of their customers.

Who is making legal proceedings against Lenovo as well as monetary claims for damages, and how are Lenovo stopped from the harmful practice?
Last edited by newac on Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 23082
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Loch Garman, Éire
Contact:

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#9 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:41 am

P1G3 shows a.o. these Drive-options in BIOS/Startup/Boot:
- NVMe0 <-- Sabrent 8TB ?
- ATA HDD0 <-- another NVMe slot?
- USB HDD
- Other HDD <-- another NVMe slot?

Maybe try the latest BIOS 1.25/1.11 ?
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#10 Post by newac » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:44 am

@RealBlackStuff I already have the latest BIOS version.

NVMe0 was the Sabrent Rocket Q (8TB) and the NVMe1 was a 1TB disk.

This firmware crippling is an outrageous business practice by Lenovo and needs legal action.

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 23082
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Loch Garman, Éire
Contact:

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#11 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:05 am

Stop your childish behaviour about "crippling firmware".
Nobody forces you to use Lenovo products.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#12 Post by newac » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:09 am

@RealBlackStuff It's a 5,000 Eur top of the line laptop where the manufacturer has incorporated malicious code that artificially restricts the laptop's function and therefore customers are basically forced to buy a new product as soon as they realize. It's a scam by Lenovo.

dr_st
Admin
Admin
Posts: 9416
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#13 Post by dr_st » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:43 am

@newac
While I understand your anger, even if what you suspect is true, you have a long way to prove that what you are experiencing is actually a firmware limitation, and that it is actually due to malicious code. If you went to court with your claim in its current state, it would get thrown out in a heartbeat. This is why, even if our forum has some lawyers lurking around, they are probably not enthusiastic to jump on your case.

Thinkpads.com is a technical discussion forum, not a legal advice forum. I am afraid we cannot help you with regards to legal proceedings, so I'm asking that we steer this discussion in other directions. There may be some experts on NVMe here that can try help you figure out if it is a firmware limitation, an electrical problem or something else.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), T490 (20N3), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad

newac
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#14 Post by newac » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:48 am

@dr_st if the laptop can be made to work would be the very best thing indeed.

My preliminary understanding is that Carbon and Yoga don't have code against >2TB SSD:s but the P1 and X1 Extreme do. Any suggestions to make it work would be greatly appreciated.


There is one report by a P1 gen 2 user that an SSD became usable and bootable after pushing the motherboard's reset button. I tried that on the P1g3 and it did not work however. Ref https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X ... =1#5753040.

RealBlackStuff
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 23082
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Loch Garman, Éire
Contact:

Re: Lenovo illegal firmware crippling of the P1 gen 3: Legal proceedings & functional circumvention?

#15 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:22 am

Does your problem occur under Windows and/or Linux and/or any other OS?


(Minor hurrah! This is my Post # 23,000.)
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, M900 Tiny (all with W7/SP1)

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “ThinkPad P1/P40/P50/P70 and later Series”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests