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Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Hello, it's time to replace my aged W520. It has been a great machine but was killed by the last "critical" BIOS upgrade (8BET66WW 1.46). After that, it's been so slow it's almost unusable.
I have used my Thinkpads on AS/400's (iSeries) for much of my career, so I use the F-keys constantly. When I bought my W520, it was one of the last to have a traditional (non-chiclet) Thinkpad keyboard, AND the F-keys worked with one press, not a combination of keys. The KB is important for me. I have never had a laptop with chiclet-style KB.
So here I am asking for advice on the best replacement for a W520. Is it the P15? I am surprised to not find discussion of the P15 on here. Is it too new?
Any advice appreciated, thank you in advance!
Jeff
I have used my Thinkpads on AS/400's (iSeries) for much of my career, so I use the F-keys constantly. When I bought my W520, it was one of the last to have a traditional (non-chiclet) Thinkpad keyboard, AND the F-keys worked with one press, not a combination of keys. The KB is important for me. I have never had a laptop with chiclet-style KB.
So here I am asking for advice on the best replacement for a W520. Is it the P15? I am surprised to not find discussion of the P15 on here. Is it too new?
Any advice appreciated, thank you in advance!
Jeff
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Hi, not to derail P15 discussion.. but (1) it shouldn't be impossible to roll back to an earlier version of BIOS if so desired (2) a full Windows/Linux reinstall will visibly give the machine a new lease of life and restore performance (3) you still have the option of sourcing a W530 motherboard + CPU and applying the necessary fixes to make it work with your current keyboard. Just saying I also suspect you're aware P15 is a lighter but a less rigid design and that you have evaluated and rejected P53/P73 which are both more similar to W520 body-wise. I assume you have similarly excluded P1 and X1E lines.
X220, 2 *T520
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thank you agatunov! Excellent suggestions, which I appreciate very much. I will investigate each of them.
I was not aware P53 was still available...I bought one for my Dad a few months ago but now they show unavailable.
Clearly I have some research to do.
Thanks again!
Jeff
I was not aware P53 was still available...I bought one for my Dad a few months ago but now they show unavailable.
Clearly I have some research to do.
Thanks again!
Jeff
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
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Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Due to Lenovo's horrible (lack of) quality control I would suggest to look around for a used machine, that is fully working and still under warranty.
You could save yourself a ton of money and aggravation.
You could save yourself a ton of money and aggravation.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.
PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thank you, also a good suggestion. Do you have a model to recommend for an old AS/400 guy who still wants the old-school Thinkpad KB? Would a P53 be what I should look for in a lightly used machine?
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Keyboards.. I feel so strongly about them that I don't own anything newer than T520/X220 You're aware that T520/T420/X220/W520 all have the same keyboard and that it can be put into T530/W530/X230/T430/X230t at the cost of some tinkering, right? And that you can upgrade X220 with an X230 motherboard, a T520 or W520 with a T530 or W530 motherboard and a T420 with a T430 motherboard? Same tinkering to make newer mobo work with older kbd..
Do you feel strong enough about old-school keyboards? Will that stop you from buying another P53? Only you yourself can answer. P53 has a different keyboard. Many people like them.
There are some die hard old keyboard addicts that purchase new custom motherboards for old bodies. It didn't work that well for me this year. I paid for a finished X2100 in January 2020 but I'm still waiting. X2100 is an X200 or X201 body upgraded with a higher resolution screen and a 10th gen Intel CPU with NVM.e and DDR4 RAM. I hope others have had a shorter wait. I still expect to get the machine.. but the way these things work is you channel your money to China and hope for the best. Best case your wait is a few months. Medium case is over a year. Worst case is no machine at all. And "warranty" here is a friendly promise to help you with repairs.. You probably pay postage..
Apart from X210/X2100 which can probably be purchased used (much quicker) there was supposed to be a project to retrofit new motherboards into X220 but you'll need to wait for Q1 2021 to see if it takes off the ground. There's a different T700 project to produce motherboards for 15" or 14" 4:3 T60/R60. All the same drawbacks as I discussed above apply - not sure how long the wait, not sure what warranty, you channel money and hope for the best.. Plus 15" 4:3 T60/R60 is pretty heavy/bulky machine. Probably a bit worse than W520. And batteries are a challenge. GreenCell is probably the only option apart from very old original batteries. And the really nice screens (1600*1200 led backlit HV150UX2-100 have gotten crazy expensive, way over $100 and including cable modification service over $200). Though HV150UX1-100 which are same 1600*1200 but with CCFL backlight seem to be still available for $75 from AliExpress and don't require any cable modifications.
Ah, another thing about all these machines with custom motherboards - X210/X2100, T700, planned X220 upgrade - none of them have got the docking connector any more They probably have USB-C with DisplayPort functionality, so you can attach an external "dock" costing some $50 and connect your monitor and keyboard to it, but it's not docking as we know it. You have to manually plug that USB-C in. And probably a second round-barrel power cable too. Not sure about power-delivery over USB-C. X2100 definitely doesn't have it. Not sure about T700. X220 upgrade is just a project in thin air so no idea either. But definitely no good old docking - which upsets me a lot.
That's all life has to offer in classic keyboards department If you can make peace with modern chicklet keyboards though you get way way more options
Never owned one, never held one in my hands, but it must be nice. Do check CPU score to make sure that what you purchase isn't beaten by a W530 Since you can put a W530 mobo/CPU into your W520 body. But I'd expect a nicer screen in a P53.
Also you originally considered T15. Not saying at all it's a bad choice. Less strong body, that much is true. But it's lighter and may have a longer batter life. Very good screens too. No compromises on performance. Well I have never held one either All my knowledge is theoretical.
X220, 2 *T520
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thank you, too, for your time and thoughts! I appreciate them very much. I have some research ahead of me. I hope can properly evaluate some of these options.
Do you know the best source for W530 motherboards? Best place to shop for lightly used P53, etc?
Thanks, Jeff
Do you know the best source for W530 motherboards? Best place to shop for lightly used P53, etc?
Thanks, Jeff
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
In my purchases I have found the most boring answer - ebay - to be surprisingly useful. It's not like it's impossible to get a bad apple, but I have found my experience to be fair. I suppose you could agree with the seller the possibility of a return if you find the machine not matching description.. As all communications are recorded on ebay you have a chance to appeal to ebay if things turn out badly and the seller refuses to honour their promises.. I'd consider ebay especially for a W530 motherboard.
Re P53.. ebay as well. Don't be shy to ask sellers questions if you're not certain about anything. Also people did occasionally report finding bargains on facebook marketplace it seems. Obviously all bets are off there, you get no protection. So I'd say it's worth checking if by any chance there is a machine that is sold locally, somewhere you can travel to in order to check it out before purchasing.. Similarly there are probably other websites local to you with classified ads, where the same rules apply as on facebook market place.. I've purchased once on https://www.shpock.com It was a leap of faith and a nerve wrecking experience but that is local to Europe I think.
Re P53.. ebay as well. Don't be shy to ask sellers questions if you're not certain about anything. Also people did occasionally report finding bargains on facebook marketplace it seems. Obviously all bets are off there, you get no protection. So I'd say it's worth checking if by any chance there is a machine that is sold locally, somewhere you can travel to in order to check it out before purchasing.. Similarly there are probably other websites local to you with classified ads, where the same rules apply as on facebook market place.. I've purchased once on https://www.shpock.com It was a leap of faith and a nerve wrecking experience but that is local to Europe I think.
X220, 2 *T520
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
There aren't many reviews for the P15 yet. It was released earlier this year, so you'd think there would be by now. It has a new cooling system. Notebookcheck.net is a good review site.TPBigot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:25 pmHello, it's time to replace my aged W520. It has been a great machine but was killed by the last "critical" BIOS upgrade (8BET66WW 1.46). After that, it's been so slow it's almost unusable.
I have used my Thinkpads on AS/400's (iSeries) for much of my career, so I use the F-keys constantly. When I bought my W520, it was one of the last to have a traditional (non-chiclet) Thinkpad keyboard, AND the F-keys worked with one press, not a combination of keys. The KB is important for me. I have never had a laptop with chiclet-style KB.
So here I am asking for advice on the best replacement for a W520. Is it the P15? I am surprised to not find discussion of the P15 on here. Is it too new?
Any advice appreciated, thank you in advance!
Jeff
P51 review:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 212.0.html
P71 review:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Th ... 884.0.html
Last edited by IBMfan700 on Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Unless and even if the W520 system board is FUBAR, I don't recommend "upgrading" it to a W530 board for a few reasons.
Wrong size Displayport.
W520 already has USB 3.0.
W530 doesn't give you more RAM.
Even after 7 row mod, a few Fn keys are inop.
The processing and graphics are just incrementally faster.
Given the W520 could work after a BIOS downgrade, it seems to me like it's unnecessary to spend for a novelty product (W520/W530 frankenpad), and for your use case, I think keeping the full features of the stock W520 is desirable.
Wrong size Displayport.
W520 already has USB 3.0.
W530 doesn't give you more RAM.
Even after 7 row mod, a few Fn keys are inop.
The processing and graphics are just incrementally faster.
Given the W520 could work after a BIOS downgrade, it seems to me like it's unnecessary to spend for a novelty product (W520/W530 frankenpad), and for your use case, I think keeping the full features of the stock W520 is desirable.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
It depends what you're using it for. If the W520 is sufficient for what you're doing (work or study) then maybe you should keep it. Do you have the best CPU & GPU that the W520 can work with (Core i7-2920XM & Quadro 2000M) ?
I think it's best to avoid updating the system BIOS, unless there's a very good reason that you have to do it.
I think it's best to avoid updating the system BIOS, unless there's a very good reason that you have to do it.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Well there is some issue with the machine, though we don't quite know what it is
I actually suspect that just an operating system reinstall may solve the problem. I also pointed out that there might be a way to roll the BIOS back - but somebody else will need to fill the OP on the easiest way to do.
I do agree that an upgrade to W530 motherboard is only expected to deliver a modest improvement both in battery life and and in processing power. Just for the matter of clarity, I understand that what TPFanatic is saying is that some of the combinations of "Fn" blue key at bottom-left with "Fn" buttons in top row will cease to work if W530 motherboard is paired with a W520 keyboard. That sounds quite possible. However "F1 - F12" from the top rows on their own without extra "Fn" key should work just fine, or so I certainly hope. I use them a bit, Ctrl+F9 to compile, F5 to copy etc Combinations like these should still work fine I think.
X220, 2 *T520
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thanks again. My W520 has an i7 2760QM chip, which as expected doesn't compare well on Passmark to the newer options. That said, I do think a fresh o/s install and possible bios rollback are viable options. This has been a great machine and I think there is some hope it has life left. Still...it is 8 yrs old.
I really appreciate all of the great advice and suggestions very much!
I really appreciate all of the great advice and suggestions very much!
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
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Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Computers of that age aren't really slow anymore... I seem to have settled on an i5 T420 as my end-all machine, which is just as old as the W520 while being less sophisticated, eg. no decent Nvidia, no USB 3, but I do utilize the eSATA regularly. With an IPS screen mod it's more usable than stock. I only find it long in the tooth for video games, it handles everything else fine. Regular uses are browsing, YouTube, image audio and video editing, light games, and MS Office.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
It's possible to use the SK-8835 and SK-8845 Ultranav keyboards with a laptop, if you have to have the old type of keyboard.
For example, you could use them with a laptop in the P50 or P70 series. The modern chiclet keyboard is very good, though.
I would recommend at least the P51/P71 in the P-series workstations, as they have better options for graphics cards (better video decoding), than the P50/P70.
The newer Thinkpad workstations have IPS screens, which is a major advantage. The W series didn't have an IPS screen until the W540.
For example, you could use them with a laptop in the P50 or P70 series. The modern chiclet keyboard is very good, though.
I would recommend at least the P51/P71 in the P-series workstations, as they have better options for graphics cards (better video decoding), than the P50/P70.
The newer Thinkpad workstations have IPS screens, which is a major advantage. The W series didn't have an IPS screen until the W540.
Last edited by IBMfan700 on Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thank you! I don't care about gaming and I don't intend to watch movies on a laptop. I use it for email, web, database manipulation/reporting tools, and terminal emulation.TPFanatic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:57 amComputers of that age aren't really slow anymore... I seem to have settled on an i5 T420 as my end-all machine, which is just as old as the W520 while being less sophisticated, eg. no decent Nvidia, no USB 3, but I do utilize the eSATA regularly. With an IPS screen mod it's more usable than stock. I only find it long in the tooth for video games, it handles everything else fine. Regular uses are browsing, YouTube, image audio and video editing, light games, and MS Office.
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
Re: Replacement for aging W520...is the P15?
Thank you. I would like to know more about how to do this. I hate to say I can't learn/love the "new" chiclet style, but I really do love the old school Thinkpad KB that put them on the map. Why they would abandon it is beyond me. It's like Dolly Parton getting a boob reduction.IBMfan700 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:27 amIt's possible to use the SK-8835 and SK-8845 Ultranav keyboards with a laptop, if you have to have the old type of keyboard.
For example, you could use them with a laptop in the P50 or P70 series. The modern chiclet keyboard is very good, though.
The newer Thinkpad workstations have IPS screens, which is a major advantage. The W series didn't have an IPS screen until the W540.
DELL - It really IS s a 4-letter word.
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