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T14s vs. Dell 7410

2020 New name Series after T430-T490 / T530-T590
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famman
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T14s vs. Dell 7410

#1 Post by famman » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:56 pm

Hi everyone,

I've been using Thinkpads exclusively for over 25 years and love them. I use them for a long time and so that only amounts to 9 Thinkpads so far, and they've always been terrific. I would like to buy a T14s (specs detailed below) through my work. Unfortunately my employer has a contract with Dell and I have to make an application justifying the Thinkpad in terms of what the Thinkpad will do that the Dell does not. For me the robustness and feel of the keyboard are crucial. Also, I just don't feel at home on anything else. But I suspect these points may not be objective enough for my employer. My employer has the Dell 7410 (specs listed below) which comes in at almost half the cost of what I was quoted fore the Thinkpad, which makes it more difficult to justify the Thinkpad. I'm not up on the details/intricacies of these machines and so I'm hoping the brain trust here can look at the two builds and explain to me what the Thinkpad can do that the Dell can't/why the Thinkpad is the better machine. Here are the builds:

ThinkPad T14s

● Processor : 10th Generation Intel® Core™ i7-10510U Processor (1.80 GHz, up to 4.90 GHz with Turbo Boost, 4 Cores, 8 Threads, 8 MB Cache)
● Operating System : Windows 10 Pro 64
● Operating System Language : Windows 10 Pro 64 English
● Memory : 16 GB DDR4 2667MHz (Soldered)
● Hard Drive : 1 TB PCIe SSD
● Display : 14.0" FHD (1920 x 1080) IPS, anti-glare, 250 nits
● Colour : Black
● Graphic Card : Integrated Intel® UHD graphics
● Camera : 720p HD
● Wireless : Intel® Wi-Fi 6 AX201 802.11AX (2 x 2) & Bluetooth® 5.0
● System Expansion Slots : Smart Card Reader
● Fingerprint Reader : Fingerprint Reader
● Keyboard : English
● TPM Setting : Enabled Discrete TPM2.0
● Absolute BIOS Selection : BIOS Absolute Enabled
● Battery : 3 Cell Li-Polymer 57Wh
● Power Cord : 65watt AC
● Display Panel : 14.0" FHD(1920x1080) IPS Anti-Glare 250nits Non-Touch, 720p HD Camera with Shutter, Mic, No WWAN, Black
● Package Box : Standard Packaging
● Language Pack : Publication-English
● Warranty : 1 Year Depot or Carry-in

Item:
3Y Depot/CCI upgrade from 1Y Depot/CCI
Part No: 5WS0A14081

Item:
ThinkPad Ultra Docking Station (American Standard Plug)
Part No: 40AJ0135US

Dell 7410

10TH GENERATION INTEL® CORE? I7-10610U (4 CORE, 8M CACHE,
BASE 1.8GHZ UP TO 4.9GHZ
WINDOWS 10 HOME (my employer upgrades to Pro for free)
16G MEMORY
M.2 1TB PCIE NVME CLASS 40 SOLID STATE DRIVE
WI-FI 6 AX201 2X2 802.11AX 160MHZ + BLUETOOTH 5.1 WIRELESS
3 CELL 39WHR EXPRESSCHARGE? CAPABLE BATTERY
14.0" FHD (1920 X 1080) AG, SLP, 2.7MM HD CAM/MIC, WLAN,
CARBON FIBER, NON-TOUCH
A dock can also be ordered for this machine for $250

Thanks very much in advance for your assistance!
T450s--i7-5600U, 12GB, 520GB SSD, Intel HD 5500, Ultra Dock
T420s--i7-2640M, 8GB, 160GB SSD, NVIDIA 4200M, Mini Dock Plus Series 3
T410s--i5-540M, 4GB, 128GB SSD, Mini Dock Plus
T61p--T7700, 4GB, 100GB, Advanced Mini Dock
X61--T7300, 3GB, 120GB, X6 Ultrabase
Retired: 760; 600; 600X; T30

RealBlackStuff
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:48 am

Maybe show us the asking price for those machines as specced above?

What about a T14s with a smaller SSD, that you can upgrade yourself for a lot less money?

Or the T14s with AMD CPU and low-power 400-nit FHD?
https://www.lenovo.com/ie/en/laptops/th ... 2TPT144SA2
NOT a great day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff).
Ireland is on FULL lockdown till December 2020!
Covid-19: Mask it or Casket!
Check out The Boardroom for Mods and Other Services.

famman
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#3 Post by famman » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:17 am

Thanks for your reply. I am in Canada so these prices are in CAD.
1. T14s $4179.70, plus $139 for 3 year warranty (which I'll probably upgrade to 5 years), thinkpad ultra docking station $398.99.
2. 7410 $2279, no additional warranty quoted, dock (not sure if there are different versions sold by dell) $249.

Getting the AMD or buying a less spec'd machine won't help because the Dell would still look like a better buy on paper. That is, it's not a cost-cost comparison, but more of a spec-spec comparison and what the Thinkpad can do that the Dell can't (or not as well). What I need to know are the actual differences between the machines in terms of features, technology, usability. For example, it used to be that the Dell would not run 3 monitors natively but the Thinkpad could, and I use a 3 monitor set-up. I notice that the Dell does not appear have the trackpoint and that's important for me. I watched a review on youtube of the Dell and it seems they've gone to a different type of AC adapter but I think the T14s uses the same type of adapter as before so I can use my old ones with it. I do a lot of writing so the keyboard feel is crucial for me. I also do data analysis and so processor capacity helps. I'm not able to access sample machines to compare, but I've always been extremely happy with Thinkpad keyboards (I don't have room for an external keyboard). I'm told that Thinkpads 12 step military spec test for robustness but I'm not sure how the robustness compares to the Dell (carbon fiber model--which might be mostly decorative for all I know).
T450s--i7-5600U, 12GB, 520GB SSD, Intel HD 5500, Ultra Dock
T420s--i7-2640M, 8GB, 160GB SSD, NVIDIA 4200M, Mini Dock Plus Series 3
T410s--i5-540M, 4GB, 128GB SSD, Mini Dock Plus
T61p--T7700, 4GB, 100GB, Advanced Mini Dock
X61--T7300, 3GB, 120GB, X6 Ultrabase
Retired: 760; 600; 600X; T30

RealBlackStuff
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#4 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:51 am

Just for fun I "customized" a T410s T14s in Ireland with a better (CPU i7-10610U), better screen (FHD IPS Anti-Glare 400nits Non-Touch) and warranty (3 Year Courier/Carry-in) included, otherwise same as yours.
Price: € 2,239.99 = CAD 3,476.31
Looks like Canada is ripping you off...
NOT a great day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff).
Ireland is on FULL lockdown till December 2020!
Covid-19: Mask it or Casket!
Check out The Boardroom for Mods and Other Services.

famman
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Posts: 64
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:05 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#5 Post by famman » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:58 am

The quote is from a few weeks ago (been busy) so not sure if prices have changed, but a number of products here are more expensive than other places (especially compared to the US even after adjusting for currency). Apparently hidden taxes/import fees often have a lot to do with it but I really don't know why this is so often the case.
T450s--i7-5600U, 12GB, 520GB SSD, Intel HD 5500, Ultra Dock
T420s--i7-2640M, 8GB, 160GB SSD, NVIDIA 4200M, Mini Dock Plus Series 3
T410s--i5-540M, 4GB, 128GB SSD, Mini Dock Plus
T61p--T7700, 4GB, 100GB, Advanced Mini Dock
X61--T7300, 3GB, 120GB, X6 Ultrabase
Retired: 760; 600; 600X; T30

kfzhu1229
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#6 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:02 pm

Maybe have a look at the X1 carbon gen 7 if you really want a thinkpad? That's the real competitor of Latitude 7410 and the pricing for that makes much more sense against the 7410
The Latitude 5410 is the one that's the mainstream 14" competitor of Thinkpad T14 series
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

MikalE
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#7 Post by MikalE » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:03 pm

I read that too. The Carbon X1 is the direct competitor to the T14.

Not sure what RBS has been drinking but they haven't made a T410 in quite a long time. Try a Hofbrau, it'll clear your head... :lol:
A31p P-IV 2Ghz, 2MB, 2653-R6U
T500 T9600 2055-BE9
T510 i5 4384-DV7
T510 i7 4349-A64
T520 i7QM 4242-4UU Highly Modified

famman
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#8 Post by famman » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:38 pm

I think we're getting somewhere. Why is the 7410 not the direct competitor to the T14s? Whatever these differences are will be very helpful for me to know.
T450s--i7-5600U, 12GB, 520GB SSD, Intel HD 5500, Ultra Dock
T420s--i7-2640M, 8GB, 160GB SSD, NVIDIA 4200M, Mini Dock Plus Series 3
T410s--i5-540M, 4GB, 128GB SSD, Mini Dock Plus
T61p--T7700, 4GB, 100GB, Advanced Mini Dock
X61--T7300, 3GB, 120GB, X6 Ultrabase
Retired: 760; 600; 600X; T30

Yao2000
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:15 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#9 Post by Yao2000 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:01 pm

the only saving grace the T14s has is the 'trackpoint" stick.

other than that, the Dell 7410 is better in every way shape and form.

the Dell latitude 7400 is better than both since it has 2 open ram slots.

I am looking forward to the next generation Thinkpad L14 with thunderbolt 3. L14 is a bit thicker and has 2 free ram slots for 64gb rams.

kfzhu1229
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#10 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:14 pm

famman wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:38 pm
I think we're getting somewhere. Why is the 7410 not the direct competitor to the T14s? Whatever these differences are will be very helpful for me to know.
The X1 carbon and 7410 are ultrabooks with as thin as possible body while retaining many business friendly features.
The T14 series and 5410 are traditional style 14" business class notebooks with very much consistent and more comfortable experience with older business class models like the T420 series and the E6420 series (Typically a much more comfortable set of input devices, better ergonomics and wider selection of ports, if not more powerful CPU RAM and discrete graphics options)
Unfortunately some big downsides for the newer ThinkPads are that you will have a minimum 1 DIMM of RAM soldered on board and you will not get physical touchpad buttons, something many ppl complain about. Both Latitudes have two RAM slots removable and the 5410 comes with the latter too.
I have heard many sources claiming that the T14 series might have both DIMMs soldered while others claim not so.
If you want trackpoint for the ultrabooks X1 carbon will take the crown because the Latitude 7410 doesn't have one.
The T14 series and 5410 all have a trackpoint + touchpad combo. The 5410's keyboard might not be as bad as you might remember from older latitudes because the newer and especially thinner chocolate style keyboard on newer ThinkPads is simply nowhere near as good as the old IBM ones, but it is heck of a lot thinner, so the typing experience gap has very much shrunk.
You can try to persuade your employer to get the X1 carbons IF your employer can get cooperate discounts from Lenovo as well.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

RealBlackStuff
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#11 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:33 am

MikalE wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:03 pm
Not sure what RBS has been drinking but they haven't made a T410 in quite a long time. Try a Hofbrau, it'll clear your head... :lol:
I copy/pasted several things, incl. 7410, which I then somehow murdered to T410s. (corrected above by now).

This is completely OT:
Haven't been in a pub in MONTHS, because they are still closed, but bottled Guinness has been available all along.
No offense meant, but I would never commit such a sin as drinking a Hofbrau, yuck!
But last century, while I occasionally roamed southern Germany, I wasn't against an Erdinger or Paulaner.
Weirdest German beer I ever had was an EKU Kulminator, that came from the deepfreezer!
NOT a great day for a Guinness! (the Real Black Stuff).
Ireland is on FULL lockdown till December 2020!
Covid-19: Mask it or Casket!
Check out The Boardroom for Mods and Other Services.

Yao2000
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:15 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#12 Post by Yao2000 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:44 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:14 pm
famman wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:38 pm
I think we're getting somewhere. Why is the 7410 not the direct competitor to the T14s? Whatever these differences are will be very helpful for me to know.
The T14 series and 5410 all have a trackpoint + touchpad combo. The 5410's keyboard might not be as bad as you might remember from older latitudes because the newer and especially thinner chocolate style keyboard on newer ThinkPads is simply nowhere near as good as the old IBM ones, but it is heck of a lot thinner, so the typing experience gap has very much shrunk.
Does the new Dell Latitude 5410 have 2 free ram slots? I assume yes since the 7410 is now soldered ram.
thanks.

famman
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Posts: 64
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:05 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#13 Post by famman » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:42 am

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:14 pm
...The T14 series and 5410 are traditional style 14" business class notebooks with very much consistent and more comfortable experience with older business class models like the T420 series and the E6420 series (Typically a much more comfortable set of input devices, better ergonomics and wider selection of ports, if not more powerful CPU RAM and discrete graphics options)

...If you want trackpoint for the ultrabooks X1 carbon will take the crown because the Latitude 7410 doesn't have one.
Thank you very much for this explanation. When you say a "more comfortable" experience in terms of ergonomics, does that mean that the T14s keyboard is more comfortable to use than the X1? I don't use an external keyboard so all of my typing will be done on the machine's keyboard. I definitely want the trackpoint; I much prefer it over the touchpad.

I'm currently using a T450s (see specs in signature). I'm wondering how different my experience would be if I replace my current machine with the X1. I assume that the X1's processor can run the internal monitor in addition to at least two external monitors, correct?

If the typing experience will be comfortable on the X1 I might just try to get that machine.
T450s--i7-5600U, 12GB, 520GB SSD, Intel HD 5500, Ultra Dock
T420s--i7-2640M, 8GB, 160GB SSD, NVIDIA 4200M, Mini Dock Plus Series 3
T410s--i5-540M, 4GB, 128GB SSD, Mini Dock Plus
T61p--T7700, 4GB, 100GB, Advanced Mini Dock
X61--T7300, 3GB, 120GB, X6 Ultrabase
Retired: 760; 600; 600X; T30

kfzhu1229
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#14 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:33 pm

famman wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:42 am

Thank you very much for this explanation. When you say a "more comfortable" experience in terms of ergonomics, does that mean that the T14s keyboard is more comfortable to use than the X1? I don't use an external keyboard so all of my typing will be done on the machine's keyboard. I definitely want the trackpoint; I much prefer it over the touchpad.

I'm currently using a T450s (see specs in signature). I'm wondering how different my experience would be if I replace my current machine with the X1. I assume that the X1's processor can run the internal monitor in addition to at least two external monitors, correct?

If the typing experience will be comfortable on the X1 I might just try to get that machine.
I believe the T14s will have much deeper travel on the keyboard than the X1 due to space restrictions. It also has twice the battery capacity.
The X1 will be a lot thinner but you may or may not feel at home with an ultrabook if a mainstream 14" is what you are currently using.
Yao2000 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:44 am
Does the new Dell Latitude 5410 have 2 free ram slots? I assume yes since the 7410 is now soldered ram.
thanks.
yes I am pretty sure the Latitude 5410 has two removable RAM slots. They are not free obviously in that they are occupied with some sticks of RAM. This isn't the same kind of 2 RAM slots with additional soldered RAM deal as on the 770 and 600 series.
ThinkPads have ditched two removable RAM slots since the Tx90 series I believe.
Also, do NOT confuse Latitude 5410 with E5410. The Latitude E5410 is a budget Arrandale generation laptop with an all plastic build while the Latitude 5410 is a mainstream class laptop!
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

Yao2000
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:15 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#15 Post by Yao2000 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:33 pm
yes I am pretty sure the Latitude 5410 has two removable RAM slots. They are not free obviously in that they are occupied with some sticks of RAM. This isn't the same kind of 2 RAM slots with additional soldered RAM deal as on the 770 and 600 series.
ThinkPads have ditched two removable RAM slots since the Tx90 series I believe.
Also, do NOT confuse Latitude 5410 with E5410. The Latitude E5410 is a budget Arrandale generation laptop with an all plastic build while the Latitude 5410 is a mainstream class laptop!
If the new Dell Latitude 5410 has 2 open ram slots for upgrade, that is the laptop to get. its far superior to T14 overall. It has a big 68wh battery while the T14 has 50wh. the overall weight is about the same.

Its sad how far the new Thinkpad have fallen.

kfzhu1229
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Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#16 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:01 pm

Yao2000 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm
If the new Dell Latitude 5410 has 2 open ram slots for upgrade, that is the laptop to get. its far superior to T14 overall. It has a big 68wh battery while the T14 has 50wh. the overall weight is about the same.

Its sad how far the new Thinkpad have fallen.
Well I know for darn sure the 5410 has 2 removable RAM slots. See the service manual here and it provides instructions on how to replace the memory modules and it is shown clear as day there that it has 2 DIMM slots: https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/latitud ... _en-us.pdf
I believe there's a 51Wh option for the Latitude 5410 as well and that option is to accommodate a 2.5" HDD. The larger 68Wh one will occupy that space. Not sure if the 50Wh you are talking about is of the variant with a 2.5" HDD or not.
Well in my opinion for Latitude 5410 and T14, there really isn't too much that one is better than the other, apart from the RAM slot situation and maybe a bigger battery.
Dell Lat CP MMX-233 64mb 40gb W2k
600 PII-266 416mb 40gb WXP
T23 PIII 1.13ghz 1gb W7
Lat D830 X9000 8gb 160gb WUXGA Ultrasharp fp W10
T530i 15.6" i7 16gb fp W10
UXGA:
A30p PIII 1.2 1gb W7 (IDTech)
T43p 2.26 2gb fp W10 (Sharp)
Lat C840 P4-2.5 2gb 60gb W7 (Ultrasharp)

Yao2000
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:15 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#17 Post by Yao2000 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:49 pm

kfzhu1229 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:01 pm
Yao2000 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm
If the new Dell Latitude 5410 has 2 open ram slots for upgrade, that is the laptop to get. its far superior to T14 overall. It has a big 68wh battery while the T14 has 50wh. the overall weight is about the same.

Its sad how far the new Thinkpad have fallen.
Well I know for darn sure the 5410 has 2 removable RAM slots. See the service manual here and it provides instructions on how to replace the memory modules and it is shown clear as day there that it has 2 DIMM slots: https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/latitud ... _en-us.pdf
I believe there's a 51Wh option for the Latitude 5410 as well and that option is to accommodate a 2.5" HDD. The larger 68Wh one will occupy that space. Not sure if the 50Wh you are talking about is of the variant with a 2.5" HDD or not.
Well in my opinion for Latitude 5410 and T14, there really isn't too much that one is better than the other, apart from the RAM slot situation and maybe a bigger battery.
The T14 isn't really an improvement over the T490. Sadley. the T490 has 1 open ram slot, 50wh battery. NO 2nd SSD in m.2 slot either. BIOS wont recognize the 2nd SSD. the build quality is subpar. FINGER-PRINTS galore. endless! and its quite fragile and flimsy. The T490 keyboard is also not as good as the Accutype keyboard from the year 2012 T430s and year 2014 T450s. The only advantage is the Trackpoint stick which is better than dell's version.

But overall i would say the Dell latitude 5410 wins over the T14. Good find and confirmation that the 5410 has 2 open upgradable ram slots! thanks on that.

Yao2000
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:15 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: T14s vs. Dell 7410

#18 Post by Yao2000 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:11 am

My gosh! I just realized some other advantages the Dell 5410 has over the T14, a replaceable and removble DC power port!

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