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Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

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decaba
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#61 Post by decaba » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:45 pm

So I'm using W7 to read about the Linux CLI. A bit of irony, wouldn't you say?
That is ironic! It reminds me, too, that I need to run Adobe Digital Editions in a Windows VM in order to get/read some ebooks with DRM. I also use the VM for iTunes so I can get songs on and off my iPhone without going through contortions. Also, I run the Windows-only Topofusion through Wine. I really like the host distro I'm using, and I'm fine with this setup, but when I re-read the OP's original question, it's pretty clear that I *haven't* moved to Linux completely.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#62 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:33 pm

decaba wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:45 pm
So I'm using W7 to read about the Linux CLI. A bit of irony, wouldn't you say?
That is ironic! It reminds me, too, that I need to run Adobe Digital Editions in a Windows VM in order to get/read some ebooks with DRM. I also use the VM for iTunes so I can get songs on and off my iPhone without going through contortions. Also, I run the Windows-only Topofusion through Wine. I really like the host distro I'm using, and I'm fine with this setup, but when I re-read the OP's original question, it's pretty clear that I *haven't* moved to Linux completely.
There's no denying that most people - even fairly advanced users which are not a rare sight on this forum - have been holding onto Windows for dear life, myself included. I'm also all-well-aware that in many (most?) corporate surroundings, there really is no alternative to MS' products. How we got to that point is a matter of a different discussion altogether, and that's not one that I'm intent on unleashing in this thread.

Running stuff in VMs or using Wine is not applicable for everyone's needs. I count myself lucky that *my* needs have gotten to be quite modest and can be - at least for the most part (say 90% or so) - met in Linux environment.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#63 Post by skx » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:07 am

don't know but I am 200% windows independent and never used it since 2008. you don't need windows at all, people still going back and forth between windows and linux are maybe advanced windows users, but not advanced at all in the linux environment. the mandatory change needed is in your head, like the change you need to quit smoking. in professional environment of course I have to use it but I don't do any private stuff on corporate pc's at all.

in the rare occasions I have to install windows like to sell and old PC/laptop (seems to sell better when people see windows on it) it remembers me why I never used windows since 2008. biggest pain in the *** to hunt for all drivers when Linux like Debian installs all in a heartbeat ;)
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#64 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:14 am

skx wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:07 am
don't know but I am 200% windows independent and never used it since 2008. you don't need windows at all, people still going back and forth between windows and linux are maybe advanced windows users, but not advanced at all in the linux environment.
Fair enough.
the mandatory change needed is in your head, like the change you need to quit smoking.
Oh my I certainly hope that the change to Linux ends up being a much easier process...otherwise I'm stuck with Windows, just like I am with cigarettes... :mrgreen:
in professional environment of course I have to use it but I don't do any private stuff on corporate pc's at all.
That pretty much goes without saying, same here.
in the rare occasions I have to install windows like to sell and old PC/laptop (seems to sell better when people see windows on it) it remembers me why I never used windows since 2008. biggest pain in the *** to hunt for all drivers when Linux like Debian installs all in a heartbeat ;)
Yeah, any PC sells better with Windows installed, no question about that.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#65 Post by TonyJZX » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:08 am

It depends on how reliant you are on the windows ecosystem etc. - I did run Linux... or Mint... on a machine that would not reliably run Windows however I remoted into Windows Servers etc. so I wasnt 100% on Linux per se.

I feel like its almost un-necessary to move completely to Linux especially here where we all have multiple laptops... I feel like we've moved beyond a stage where we need to dual boot.

I dont feel like it should be a religious issue where you convert to Microsoft or Linux. If you run Linux for a while and then dont like it, move back to Windows.

You should all have spare machines etc.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#66 Post by skx » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:47 pm

I don't know, if you really start using Linux as a power user, being forced to deal with a windows PC feels like being waterboarded by the Trump administration ;) I am now at the stage windows feels like pure mental torture. I avoid it 100% in my private life and try to cope with it in my professional life!
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#67 Post by Dekks » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:29 am

skx wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:47 pm
I don't know, if you really start using Linux as a power user, being forced to deal with a windows PC feels like being waterboarded by the Trump administration ;) I am now at the stage windows feels like pure mental torture. I avoid it 100% in my private life and try to cope with it in my professional life!
I've never felt that, it's just another OS.
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#68 Post by Rs125 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:50 pm

I like Linux, because everything works with out fiddling with it. No hunting for model exclusive drivers. Updating is very simple and fast. I don't know how many times I have booted a Windows computer with Linux live USB to troubleshoot problems.

That being said I have a hard time cutting the cord. Windows is like a nice big heavy blanket on a cold night, all cozy on the couch watching TV. Yeah sometimes that thing generates some static electricity and shocks the hell out of you, but you still use it

Maybe if I didn't have to use Windows at work it would make it easier, that and I haven't tried itunes on Linux yet, if that is even possible. :eek:
We got some rules to follow,
That and this, these and those...

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#69 Post by farmall » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm

I see no reason to "switch" when I can have it all at zero cost. It's trivially easy to use VMs. My Linux hosts have Windows guests and Windows hosts have Linux guests. If I only ran one or the other I'd still use VMs to have different OS versions and test applications before loading to bare metal. I take clean snapshots of each guest so I can revert if useful.

Much Windows software doesn't run on Linux, especially industry standard CAD applications. No problem. I open a VM on one monitor and use the other for the host OS.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#70 Post by TRS-80 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:55 pm

@ajkula66,

I read this whole thread with great interest. I wondered how you were getting on with your GNU/Linux journey?

You will not get devil's advocate from me, in fact I am here to present the opposite case. :D Although it sounds as if you have mostly made up your mind already, there are a couple things I would like to touch on that have not been covered by others yet. And also for the benefit of other lurkers following along at home who may be considering a similar path of action.

I followed a very similar path as yourself. I stayed on Windows 7 long after Win 10 had come out. Finally I had enough, started dual booting, and eventually made the leap fully. Now a few years on, every box in our home runs some flavor of GNU/Linux (including routers, set top boxes, PCs, laptops, phones & tablets (Android), etc.). And when everything on your network is running Free/Libre Open Source Software (F/LOSS) and open (non-proprietary) protocols... it's amazing how well everything "just works" together, and how easy it all is to administer.

I don't think Linux is "harder" to use than Windows, certainly not nowadays. One can get started very easily with a regular Desktop Environment GUI, just like in Windows. There are many to choose from (in fact almost a bewildering array). But it's when you go to start doing more "power user" type things that the differences really start to become apparent. Under the hood, GNU/Linux is more like a box of Legos, Erector Set, or what have you... It's like a box of parts with which you can build darn near whatever you can conceive... This is part of the so-called Unix Philosophy, as explained in this excellent vintage video:

AT&T Archives: The UNIX Operating System (YouTube video)

There is a beauty inherent in the design of the whole system, the deeper you delve into it the more you come to appreciate it (at least I did). At this point I am automating all sorts of things using text processing tools, bash and Python scripts, for example automatically downloading all my bank transactions and categorizing them, etc.

But, you do have to become "sick of" Windows enough to motivate you to depart from the familiar. It sounds like you are there. In fact, the joke in Linux circles nowadays is that Win 8/10 were the best things ever to happen to Linux. lol So, you and I are definitely not alone.

There is one other very important factor that I needed to get my head around however before fully grokking what all the hubbub was about, and that is understanding the philosophy that drove the creation of the Free Software movement in the first place:

What is Free Software and why is it so important for society?

And furthermore, Why "Open Source" misses the point of Free Software.

In my view, until I got my head around those ideas, I was still subject to making the same feature by feature comparisons that some others in this thread are making. But now I realize it's not about that, at all. Linux may not always compare favorably to Windows on every single feature. And then in other cases (like ZFS file system and many others) you, as a mere mortal, can get your hands on enterprise quality software, for free (as in freedom and as in price)!

But these questions are much bigger than just desktop and laptop computers. I have eventually come to form the very strong opinion, that in an age where everything (including your car, appliances, medical devices, etc.) is some kind of hardware, with some kind of software in it, the questions that Richard Stallman began asking ("who does this device really serve?") are much wider ranging and more important to all of society than simply "does this run faster or better than Windows." And I'm not sure how many people have really stopped to ask themselves those sort of questions.

Free Software is just a completely different paradigm. One where what THE USERS want is put first (and not some corporation, Intel, Microsoft, Google, the NSA or other government agencies, etc.). This is why for example, you can still find the traditional desktop metaphor widely represented in Linux (they are not trying to turn everything into a tablet OS. like Win 8/10). And also why the software and operating system itself are not trying to monetize / spy on you, etc... And how refreshing is that for a change, especially nowadays?
All good things are Wild and Free.

What is free software and why is it so important for society?

(2022) Actively on the lookout for for 15" T60 FlexView / Hydis LED displays and parts, for my own usage. Kindly PM me your demands if you are willing to part with anything. :D

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#71 Post by ajkula66 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:22 pm

TRS-80 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:55 pm
@ajkula66,

I read this whole thread with great interest. I wondered how you were getting on with your GNU/Linux journey?
I've been on Linux 95% of the time for several months now and am generally pleased with the results.

Having said that, I did notice a "slowdown" on my Debian install, which can be attributed to several different things. I'm about to start swapping the systems around and will report back once I have a "new" main machine in place.

But at the end of the day, if one is to choose between W8.x/10 and one of the "friendlier" Linux flavours (Ubuntu/Mint, Debian, Fedora...) the choice is clear, at least for me.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#72 Post by skx » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:16 am

TRS-80 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:55 pm
I read this whole thread with great interest. I wondered how you were getting on with your GNU/Linux journey?
quality post full of linux love :mrgreen: just wondering now, which distros you settled with after probably having gone through an extensive distro hopping time? 8)
ThinkPad X220: i5-2520M CPU 2.5GHz - 8GB RAM 1333 MHz - SSD 860 EVO 250GB - Debian - ME_cleaned
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#73 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:44 am

skx wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:16 am

quality post full of linux love :mrgreen: just wondering now, which distros you settled with after probably having gone through an extensive distro hopping time? 8)
A fork of Debian developed in my old neck of the woods. Quite pleased with it, which doesn't mean that I'm not looking into other options for my older systems that can't run a 64-bit OS. Haven't had the time to explore these options lately, though.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#74 Post by TRS-80 » Wed May 29, 2019 8:41 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:44 am
other options for my older systems that can't run a 64-bit OS
I am not sure what fork of Debian you have been using, but regular Debian certainly is available for 32-bit. In fact, I run it on all my T60s (some are 32-bit and some 64-bit) because that way if system crashes, hard drive fails, etc. I can just grab the hard drive out of another one and simply swap it out and boot right back up!
skx wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:16 am
quality post full of linux love :mrgreen: just wondering now, which distros you settled with after probably having gone through an extensive distro hopping time? 8)
Not sure if that was directed at me or ajkula66, so I'll answer just in case. I did a lot of research (and still am interested in the topic) but chose Debian and have basically stuck with it ever since, for myriad reasons.
All good things are Wild and Free.

What is free software and why is it so important for society?

(2022) Actively on the lookout for for 15" T60 FlexView / Hydis LED displays and parts, for my own usage. Kindly PM me your demands if you are willing to part with anything. :D

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#75 Post by farmall » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:24 pm

I use Windows VMs for interacting with Kindle, then immediately use Calibre to convert my ebooks to use them on all my devices. https://calibre-ebook.com/

All my Linux installs get Calibre. It's popular for good reason. Binary installs preferred: https://calibre-ebook.com/download_linux

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#76 Post by KentT » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 pm

Linux Mint, Cinnamon edition or Linux Mint XFCE are your best bets for your machine. Try it on a live DVD.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#77 Post by davidgurvich » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:14 am

1)There's other options. You could try *BSD if you want to do more manual configuration or ChromeOS(cloudready) if you want to do none.
2)Can't enjoy the constant Windows updates. Who knows what will break next? If you want to elevate your blood pressure, having Windows restart to do an update while you are working is great. it's especially great when it happens at a critical point during a meeting(actually happened).
3)Reinstalling has become much easier with Windows 10. Almost as easy as Linux, except that I haven't needed to reinstall any of my linux machines as often. That means I don't get to enjoy the installation procedure as much with Linux.
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#78 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:35 am

davidgurvich wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:14 am
1)There's other options. You could try *BSD if you want to do more manual configuration or ChromeOS(cloudready) if you want to do none.
There are always other options... :D
2)Can't enjoy the constant Windows updates. Who knows what will break next? If you want to elevate your blood pressure, having Windows restart to do an update while you are working is great. it's especially great when it happens at a critical point during a meeting(actually happened).
My machines are locked from updates...have been for years now.
3)Reinstalling has become much easier with Windows 10. Almost as easy as Linux, except that I haven't needed to reinstall any of my linux machines as often. That means I don't get to enjoy the installation procedure as much with Linux.
Not touching W10 with a telephone pole...ever again...

I should actually be starting some new migrations to Linux within the next few weeks...it will be fun to find out how much I've forgotten...once again... :roll:
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#79 Post by Eugor » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:42 pm

I am fashionably late to the party. I have dabbled and investigated many distro,s over the years. As of late, I have found Linux Mint Xfce a suitable fit for my needs and to maintain a snappy response. I use it on thinkpads from xx20 series to the T440p series and have found it suites my needs. Now I am not a programmer or developer stressing the use of the machine. But as a daily driver, all have suited my needs well. for the past 3 years, I have not found but a few occassions that I have needed to use a windows os for anything. usually it is a certain proprietary something that requires it. I have one thinkpad that is just dedicated to a windows os for that purpose. Otherwise, Linux has provided all of my needs. I am glad that as these years have progressed, we are able to do that now.

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#80 Post by TRS-80 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:12 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:35 am
I should actually be starting some new migrations to Linux within the next few weeks...it will be fun to find out how much I've forgotten...once again... :roll:
One of things I like about GNU/Linux is that you can save most (if not all) of your configs in dotfiles. I have slowly but steadily been adding mine into a git repo, as they are just plain text after all.

I had worked on a couple different iterations of a more or less automated install script, to provision new machines, but lately realize it's getting too complicated.

Recently when reading up (again) on dotfile management, a couple people said they simply maintain a sort of check list, or step-by-step notes which they add to as needed. And I think I am going to try this method next. Eventually that may turn into some automated script (or maybe not).
All good things are Wild and Free.

What is free software and why is it so important for society?

(2022) Actively on the lookout for for 15" T60 FlexView / Hydis LED displays and parts, for my own usage. Kindly PM me your demands if you are willing to part with anything. :D

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#81 Post by afton » Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:09 pm

well, classic issue, eg. hardware compatibility issue (driver) for consumer devices.

I've been trying to make wifi work on my T430s on various distro without success so far.... :(

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#82 Post by mikemex » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm

First of all, there is no such thing as "Linux". There is a kernel and a zillion different opinions of what it should do and what it should be bundled with. It appears that only Debian respects the true nature of free software, because it's the only distribution that I'm aware of that calls it GNU/Linux and not simply "Linux". But let's assume there is in fact "Linux" as an OS.

Linux is a command line OS. No matter how they like to dress it, in the end, it's behind most other operating systems for its preference for text based commands. That's why you try to install a typically UNIX software in Windows such as Perl, and it complains for such as stupid and irrelevant detail as being installed in a folder with spaces in its name.

There is nothing wrong about the command line but it should not be the primary interface to OS services. It's mostly there to make it easy for human users to interact with stuff, Between programs, the modern way to do it is with a binary interface. That's why, in my previous example, a Windows native application wouldn't really even notice the spaces in the path: because in low level a function gets parameters as a series of well defined variables. You don't retort to parsing text unless you absolutely need to; both for speed and to minimize the possibility of malformed commands.

With a terminal based OS you need to know all available commands beforehand, which most people does not. And second, you have to understand the options that can be given to such commands. That will never be be as easy or intuitive as hunting for an option in a GUI menu.

Also, by its very nature, everything runs on top of Linux rather than being integrated into it. X, for instance, it's based on very old notions on how a GUI should work and that's why it's been quite difficult to give Linux the same level of hardware acceleration of Windows. It's simply a hack; much like the early Windows versions ran on top of MS-DOS.

I've been following Linux development for a long, long time. I must have a CD somewhere with the first public beta of KDE; that's well before 2000. And over the years I've made sincere attempts at switching from Windows to Linux. But in the end, the amateur quality (and reduced selection) of most software really shows and, above all, the deep balkanization that ruins everything. Even today, that there is an overwhelming pile of evidence that shows that a standardized (stable) platform contributes greatly to the success of an OS (Win32 applications, if written properly, have over two decades of binary compatibility). Yet Linux folks still think the strength of Linux is "its ability to be customized". A customized OS? Give me a break.

Excess idealism and zero practical sense is what I see in most Linux fans. There is the example of Android; Google took the Linux kernel and simply standardized it; and it became the most popular OS of all time. Is it that hard to just mimic that strategy?

Most of the contributed work in Linux is spent in maintaining the almost endless amount of distributions out there. Wouldn't it be better to stop spending so much time testing, compiling, packaging, etc. and get down to write actual, useful software? Does Linux even has a native, community developed CAD application on the same level as Catia or SolidWorks yet?

People don't change. Free software alternatives will remain second (or third) class in objectively neutral scales of usability, functionality and support. The only serious attempt anyone has ever done at making a better Linux is a guy called Hisham (a Palestine living in Brazil) who founded GoboLinux. He replaced the archaic filesystem structure with a modern one in which programs are installed in their own folders and not scattered around the whole drive. But it is largely ignored because people don't really want to build a real OS that normal people with neither knowledge nor interest to fiddle with technical stuff actually finds useful and easy to use to perform real work. They want a toy they can entertain themselves with and Linux is never ending fun for nerds.
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#83 Post by TRS-80 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:51 pm

Command line may seem obtuse coming from GUI perspective, but they are very powerful. I can rename 1,000s of files recursively under a directory in a fraction of a second, with a single line command. That would take you a week in a GUI.

To be honest, being a life long Windows user myself (until just a few years ago), I felt the same way at first. And plenty frustration along the way (and still, at times). But I took it as an opportunity to play and learn, and the payoff has been spectacular (I now self host many of my own services).

I am picking up the frustration in your post. And yet you seem to maintain interest in GNU/Linux over many years in spite of this (and kudos to you pointing out the difference, btw). I guess, that all I can suggest is to play around with something that is not time critical in order to just learn. Trying to be productive in the beginning just leads to frustration IMO. Any old laptop or desktop is probably a good starting point. You can even boot a Debian live off of a USB stick, without affecting the installed OS.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
With a terminal based OS you need to know all available commands beforehand, which most people does not. And second, you have to understand the options that can be given to such commands. That will never be be as easy or intuitive as hunting for an option in a GUI menu.
Man pages are the tool for this sort of quick reference. Or --help option, which works with pretty much every program.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
Also, by its very nature, everything runs on top of Linux rather than being integrated into it. X, for instance, it's based on very old notions on how a GUI should work and that's why it's been quite difficult to give Linux the same level of hardware acceleration of Windows. It's simply a hack; much like the early Windows versions ran on top of MS-DOS.
In case of X, you are not far off the mark. But there is Wayland now. And a counter example would be the networking stack, which is built right into the kernel. Hence why Linux is very at home on networked systems and embedded devices.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
[...] amateur quality (and reduced selection) of most software really shows
Yes there is a lot of publicly shared amateur software, I think it's wonderful that people are sharing. I myself have published a few little things.

OTOH, you have major multinationals like the FANG and Linux Foundation companies (and others) who have built their entire empires on top of "the cloud" (an euphemism for "someone else's computer"). And guess what that runs on top of?

In a few desktop programs, some times a few features lag behind the proprietary equivalent, that's true. In many other cases, the F/LOSS option is the industry standard, or it allows mere mortals like you and I to use enterprise grade software in our own homes. ZFS (file system) is a really good example of the latter.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
[...] and, above all, the deep balkanization that ruins everything. Even today, that there is an overwhelming pile of evidence that shows that a standardized (stable) platform contributes greatly to the success of an OS (Win32 applications, if written properly, have over two decades of binary compatibility). Yet Linux folks still think the strength of Linux is "its ability to be customized". A customized OS? Give me a break.
I actually sort of agree with you here. But these people you are referring to are Arch/Gentoo users. lol! Meanwhile regular people who need to keep things running use Debian. Which have practically become what you are describing, within the GNU/Linux space anyway.

There is only one place where Windows is "overwhelmingly successful" and that is on the desktop. Unix derivatives dominate everywhere else. And I would argue that M$ "success" in this area had more to do with anti-competitive business practices rather than any sort of technical merits. But it's a moot point, as desktop PCs seem to be a "dying" platform anyway, with mobile devices far exceeding their numbers nowadays.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
Excess idealism and zero practical sense is what I see in most Linux fans. There is the example of Android; Google took the Linux kernel and simply standardized it; and it became the most popular OS of all time. Is it that hard to just mimic that strategy?
You consider idealism a bad quality? I guess I don't. And it's not just idealism. Being in control of your own software has a number of very practical advantages (but more on that further down).

What Google did with Android was not to "standardize" Linux, but rather to replace the GNU userland around it with their alternatives. And then impose some onerous requirements onto hardware manufacturers. Which is all about platform control. Not for the betterment of users mind you (as vast majority of Android phones are still throwaway devices) but to cement their business model.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
Does Linux even has a native, community developed CAD application on the same level as Catia or SolidWorks yet?
I don't know if it will suit your needs, but I will mention FreeCAD anyway, as personally I find it quite usable for the things I do (which include laying out furniture in the home, designing furniture and other wood works, 3d printing small parts, etc.). There are also more specialized ones for circuit design, SCAD, etc.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
He replaced the archaic filesystem structure with a modern one in which programs are installed in their own folders and not scattered around the whole drive. But it is largely ignored because [...]
The simpler explanation (in my mind) would be that it was probably "ignored" because it did not adhere to the very well established Linux Filesystem Heirarchy? Which, incidentally, specifies precisely where programs are to be installed, with separate areas for the user and OS.
mikemex wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm
People don't change. Free software alternatives will remain second (or third) class in objectively neutral scales of usability, functionality and support.
I rearranged this one to the last position, as I think it's probably the most fundamental (and important) misunderstanding, and one I have sort of been dancing around this entire post.

You refer to your own evaluation criteria as "objectively neutral" but I disagree. Personally I value the freedom to do whatever I want far, far more than perhaps a few missing features.

Because ultimately that's what it's all about, control. I want to be in control of the software that I use. If I need to learn more, or be sightly inconvenienced in some small way to achieve this, I don't mind that. Where in contrast I think you simply value convenience over freedom. But don't worry, you won't be lonely. In fact I am afraid the vast majority of people see things that way.

Computer is just a machine that gets an instruction, executes it, gets another one, etc. So the pertinent question in my mind becomes: who is writing the instructions, and to what ends? Does the computer/device do what you want? Or only what {Microsoft, Google, NSA, etc.} want first, and whatever you want is secondary to that? This is essentially Free Software philosophy in a nutshell, anyone unfamiliar is invited to follow link in my signature for a brief article and video introducing it.

Cheers, and good luck. There is also huge worldwide community willing to help, and many published resources on the Internet. Another important difference to proprietary model.
All good things are Wild and Free.

What is free software and why is it so important for society?

(2022) Actively on the lookout for for 15" T60 FlexView / Hydis LED displays and parts, for my own usage. Kindly PM me your demands if you are willing to part with anything. :D

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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#84 Post by modmaster » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:20 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:10 pm
Those amongst you can be bothered to read my posts (rants ?) about operating systems are likely aware of the fact that for the past couple of years I've been running a "locked down" version of W7 Ultimate on my "main" systems. Some may also remember that I have a tendency of wiping the SSD and performing a fresh install every six months or so.

Well, that task is on the list again - mostly due to the fact that I have some days off coming my way - but this time around I'm contemplating the idea of not re-installing W7 at all, and going with Mint LMDE instead as the only operating system on my well-worn-but-still-running (knock on wood) T61p.

Why ?

At this point in the game there is exactly ONE program that I use on regular basis that requires Windows (or Mac, but I'm not going there) environment and has very low processing power requirements so I could use my T43pSF or even my ancient A31p for that purpose, since XP is still fully supported by it. That's it. As in "really it". Everything else plays very well with Linux.

I'm not in the least concerned about the "2020 doomsday" for W7 since I've locked the WU out quite some time ago, and my world hasn't come to an end. No hackers out there have shown even the slightest interest in silly old me. Quite disappointing, I know... :mrgreen:

My train of thoughts is mostly tied to the hardware level. There is a very reasonable likelihood of a decent (sans keyboard, most likely, unfortunately) 3:2 system in the near future, and chances are that W7 will not be on the list of supported operating systems, hardware-wise. Since W10 will never become an option for any of my personal systems, I may as well switch fully to Linux now and be fairly well-versed in it when the hardware I'm interested in hits the market. There's next to no doubt in my mind that the zillion of *nix developers out there will be creating support shortly after such a laptop is released.

What - if anything - am I missing here ? Talk me out of moving away from Windows, oh The Voices Of Reason on TPF...

Looking forward to any and all reasonable opinions.
Nothing against Linux, all good for it, I use it daily, but Mint LMDE is probably one of the worst distros out there(performance wise, is still faster than any windows, but I avoid it like the plague, Mint Xfce may be a better option for you...

ajkula66
SuperUserGeorge
SuperUserGeorge
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Re: Looking for a devil's advocate: why SHOULDN'T I move to Linux completely ?

#85 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:34 am

modmaster wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:20 am

Nothing against Linux, all good for it, I use it daily, but Mint LMDE is probably one of the worst distros out there(performance wise, is still faster than any windows, but I avoid it like the plague, Mint Xfce may be a better option for you...
It's been almost four years since I started this thread... :D

Haven't had the time to move to *nix - life happens - and pretty much stopped distro-shopping altogether for the time being. Hope to finally change that in a few months.

Never cared for anything Xfce, but it's been a while so I may get persuaded to take that route at some point...we'll see.
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


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