Thinkpads Forum

Please forgive a naive question but one of the primary reasons I haven't bought a Mac is because of it's limitations on software support. How is Linux any better?

As an example, one application I use all the time is MS Streets & Trips. It won't run on a Mac and I assume it won't run on Linux.

I do use software like Open Office, Firefox/Thunderbird, etc. but I also use a lot of software that only runs on Windows (Corel, Lotus, Linksys, Works Calendar, etc.).

I still have to use Internet Explorer to do certain types of banking.

I would love to dump Windows now that I know the truth about Windows Genuine Advantage but I can't see how I can.

Can someone set me straight?

TIA,
Bud

This is a highly mis-understood subject because of the flailings of OS bigots (windows is better than... linux is better than... MAC is better than ... blah, blah, blah and on it goes).

You need to look at the software you must run and then pick the OS that fits your needs. They all have their place. The software I need runs on Windows and not on the other two. So I run Windows. Further, I am not trying to dump it - there is no reason to.

I happen to dislike Genuine Advantage, and I have escalated this one up the ladder. They *are* keeping private information on me and I do not trust them to keep it private.

But for that one key dislike, Windows operates smoothly, reliably, crash-free and securely for me. So for a while, at least, I shall keep on running it. ... JD Hurst

I really don't need to dump XP because it generally runs fine. I get tired of constantly downloading fixes and the overhead of Norton which causes XP to take forever to boot.

I bought my wife an iMac so she wouldn't have to put up with these things but the lack of software support can get frustrating.

Anyway, I'm quite happy with my new T60 except for the IBM software.

If you get tired of Windows updates, you should try Ubuntu. Easily 10x as many Ubuntu updates as Windows - it never stops

I sympathize with the Norton issue - I use the Corporate product which is easily 10x better than the retail product.

... JD Hurst

Wish they released the corporate version as a consumer option.

I use a Mac and Linux system in additon to XP... never had a problem with software. I've had more of a problem on XP than with any other OS, simply beause of the lack of free alternatives.

Last I looked, there were quite a few "free" alternatives to Windows XP; yet note the fact that Free != Good.

Very often, such alternatives, vaunted as they are, fall flat on their face or otherwise perform miserably when it comes to performing the same simple, supposedly generic task that could have been done better on another system. It isn't a matter of what is "better" or what is the best alternative (Ideally, should one have planned their needs in advance and predicted everything carefully, one should not rely on "alternatives" to pull them through except in the most dire of situations; especially if the job at hand is crucial.). Any OS is only as good as the user and is measured by how well it does its job; as such, that goes with the assumption that the operator of the system has chosen the correct OS and software for the job and not because it was cheaper or easier or "free-er" in another sense. Over-compensating in one area over another where a balanced system is called for is generally not a good idea.

Like another post, you have to use the one that works best for your application, you can't give up an OS if you can't make a required application work, either through using an alternative application, emulation, or just another approch, there are many ways to skin the same cat but when the day comes to a close and you NEED this one app to work and it will only run under one OS, one possible solution is one that I use a lot and have for the past 8 years, virtulization, either VMware (type depending on need), QEMU, Parallels, or Microsoft's Virtual PC (Connectix). Just one other way that may work. Not always the bleading fastest but works none the less, right now one application I use it for is for my wife's iPod, I use AnyDVD Mini application to shrink movies it uses the anyDVD module that only runs under Windows because it acts like a device and Wine won't handle it correctly right now, and I haven't the time to find a Linux alternative that is as easy to use. So take it for what it is worth.

As both a Windows and Linux user, the idea of dumping Windows just because you do not want to support Microsoft or Windows any longer is not a good idea. While this may be one justification, you can run into frustrations very quickly if that is the only reason. To me, Linux has several benefits worth dual-booting on my computers. Linux is generally less expensive because of all the open-source operating systems, applications, drivers and freeware that is out there. The community technical support for Linux is abundant, readily available and graciously provided by Linux users worldwide; it also does not require a 45-minute call to Microsoft technical support. If you start delving into the inner workings of Linux, you can customize your operating system and programs in ways you could never do with Windows and its applications. Viruses targeted mainly at Windows are not as prevalent with Linux. Finally, Linux applications are improving almost daily and becoming more and more available, meaning there may come a day when all of your favorite programs are Linux compatible without having to use Wine. In the meantime, Wine for Linux is also improving and letting Linux users run more and more Windows applications on Linux every day.

I have not abandoned Windows yet, but I will not abandon Linux either. They each have their place. It is just not a wise decision to dump Windows just for the sake of dumping Windows.

BudC wrote:software that only runs on Windows (Corel, Lotus, Linksys, Works Calendar, etc.).

I don't understand. Linksys is a hardware manufacturer.

Also, changing operating systems necessitates a change in software. You'll get dumb people who claim it's worth it no matter how inconvenient it is, and you'll get dumb people who think that free software can't ever be good. Upon questioning, both types hastily backpedal, equivocate, and generally provide no useful information.

Unless you have a compelling reason, you're better off using what you know. The best answer is to get a $20 pile of junk computer from craigslist or something. Then you can install linux on it, play around, learn, see how you like it, and not really impede your productivity in the meantime.

If you find a linux distribution that fits your needs, by all means, use it. Just keep in mind that you're going to have to find alternative applications in a lot of cases. They're out there.

I have used Linux for 6 months now on one of my Thinkpads, but still continue to use Windows on the others. The idea of not using Microsoft just because you don't want to support Bill Gates (as said before) is just silly. Just use what works for you the best. What are you trying to punish Microsoft for anyway? If you want to punish somebody that deserves it much more maybe stop buying gas and get yourself a bicycle.

Regarding Linux vs. Windows, I find that if you are willing to put the time to learn, Linux can be very rewarding. I have been using SuSE 9.3, and I find it to be every bit as stable (perhaps more) than Windows XP. I have got applications to do almost everything I want my computer to do. I can play DVD's, MP3, run office applications (which I prefer in some cases to the Microsoft equivalent), encode video, burn VCD to watch on my TV, create flowcharts, etc. Not only that, but in many instances you will find that you have multiple alternative software programs to perform a specific task. The one thing where I find Linux lacking right now is in things that most people don't use, such as MIDI sequencers, composition software, etc.

Linux requires an investment from the user in ways that Windows doesn't, but like I said before it is a very rewarding experience.
I love my Linux, but I won't be throwing my Windows anytime out just yet.

Duplicate post.

The short answer is that the available programs differ by OS. If you you can't live without "MS Street & Trips", then chances are you'll have to keep running windows. And if MS stops selling Street&Trips at some day in the future, there is a real chance that you'll have to keep an old version of windows, too.

The more difficult question is for you, how are you ensuring that your data remains safe and accessible? What if development for software title X is stopped, or what if you are forced (e.g. by your company, or because of privacy issues/security/DRM) to use a different OS? Will your data still be accessible after the switch?

The key answer is to avoid being locked in. Make sure that your data is in a standardized, documented format. The best way for that are programs where you have access to the source code, which is the ultimate documentation for the file format. The second best way would be multi-platform programs, at least you can switch the OS if you want (and you know that it was written with portability in mind).

karmaflux wrote:

BudC wrote:software that only runs on Windows (Corel, Lotus, Linksys, Works Calendar, etc.).

I don't understand. Linksys is a hardware manufacturer.

Some Linksys hardware needs proprietary software as a remote console to change the settings. Take WPS11, a wireless print server, for example, you need the admin program to get the setting done the first time otherwise it's impossible to set it up through other protocol(http, telnet).

I found the following websites are good software finding resource:
http://freshmeat.net
http://sourceforge.net
http://linuxpackages.net ( for slackware users)
After I add those three websites into my firefox search engine list, my file-searching life became easier.

jdhurst wrote:If you get tired of Windows updates, you should try Ubuntu. Easily 10x as many Ubuntu updates as Windows - it never stops

... JD Hurst

One way to explain this is the fact that Ubuntu updates are...well open source. Meaning the turn around time for updates is quite small and that usually means a more secure software. Saying to someone that one OS requires more updates, but failing to mention the reason why, or compare the size/quality of the updates is misinformation

Windows doesnt ship with its own web server, database server, office suite, etc etc. But I do agree that looking at what software you will be using to choose your OS is one of the most important things you should do.

Cheers, John.

jdhurst wrote:If you get tired of Windows updates, you should try Ubuntu. Easily 10x as many Ubuntu updates as Windows - it never stops

... JD Hurst

One way to explain this is the fact that Ubuntu updates are...well open source. Meaning the turn around time for updates is quite small and that usually means a more secure software. Saying to someone that one OS requires more updates, but failing to mention the reason why, or compare the size/quality of the updates is misinformation

Windows doesnt ship with its own web server, database server, office suite, etc etc. But I do agree that looking at what software you will be using to choose your OS is one of the most important things you should do.

Cheers, John.

revolutionary_one wrote:

jdhurst wrote:If you get tired of Windows updates, you should try Ubuntu. Easily 10x as many Ubuntu updates as Windows - it never stops

... JD Hurst

One way to explain this is the fact that Ubuntu updates are...well open source. Meaning the turn around time for updates is quite small and that usually means a more secure software. Saying to someone that one OS requires more updates, but failing to mention the reason why, or compare the size/quality of the updates is misinformation

So is claiming that, since the software is open source and "free" that it is somehow, by magic juju or mugambo, way more secure than Windows or the rest.

That has to be proved before I can believe it, same goes for other claims; I have been using Linux for a good long time now and, while there is a good set of features and options that I like, there is also a set of downright bizzare things as well; every OS has those. Simply because it is "free," free as in speech and beer (No, I don't want to ever hear another paper on that topic again...ever), doesn't mean it is *inherently* better, faster, stronger, or superior to something that is closed source. It also is no guarantee that it will be around for a long time without being either abandonded or becoming dead because of a lack of interest.

Don't believe me? Go on Sourceforge and try telling me that 80% or a good majority of the "free software" isn't crippleware, vaporware (look at how many pre-alpha projects there are without released files on sourceforge), or just plain out brownware in the literal sense.

True, there are many examples of good "free software," but this doesn't mean that any "free software" is good by default. Programs and developers have to prove themselves first.

christopher_wolf wrote: So is claiming that, since the software is open source and "free" that it is somehow, by magic juju or mugambo, way more secure than Windows or the rest.

Just read your bug disclosure mailinglist of choice. Where Cisco (just to not bash MS for once) publicly admits things like "Vulnerable, fix available fourth quarter of 2006". If you see announcements concerning open source code, they either contain a patch to the source code or, more commonly, the note that it is already fixed in the latest version.

Volker

Volker wrote:

christopher_wolf wrote: So is claiming that, since the software is open source and "free" that it is somehow, by magic juju or mugambo, way more secure than Windows or the rest.

Just read your bug disclosure mailinglist of choice. Where Cisco (just to not bash MS for once) publicly admits things like "Vulnerable, fix available fourth quarter of 2006". If you see announcements concerning open source code, they either contain a patch to the source code or, more commonly, the note that it is already fixed in the latest version.

Volker

Same difference; yet I have yet to see a huge difference in the way things are patched in something like Linux vs. how it is done in Windows....except for the WGA thing, which is plain out annoying but it can be removed.

christopher_wolf wrote:

Volker wrote: Just read your bug disclosure mailinglist of choice. Where Cisco (just to not bash MS for once) publicly admits things like "Vulnerable, fix available fourth quarter of 2006". If you see announcements concerning open source code, they either contain a patch to the source code or, more commonly, the note that it is already fixed in the latest version.

Same difference; yet I have yet to see a huge difference in the way things are patched in something like Linux vs. how it is done in Windows

This isn't about Windows vs. Linux, its binary-only vs. open-source. Many people run open-sourced applications on top of Windows, just as some occasionally use binary-only programs on Linux. In fact, the announcement that I quoted is a cross-platform program, and neither Windows nor Linux will get any bugfix until the Cisco-Santa comes in Q4 2006.

My point is that it is obviously easier to fix bugs if you have the source code. You can still do it without, it is just much more difficult to disassemble a binary-only program. I'm sure you still remember the inofficial IE patches end of March (that were based on disassembled dlls), because MS figured that the bug is not exploited often enough to merit an out-of-cycle patch.

I run Fedora Core 5 on my T30, but there are times when I need to do something in Windows (like, until very recently, Google Earth). My solution was to download VMware Player for Linux to my PC, install it, and then get an image of WinXP (yes, I have a license for it) and copy it to my notebook. I then have a virtual machine running a full blown copy of Windows XP, and any software I care to run within it.

If you want to create your Windows image, you can also download a 30 day eval of VMware Workstation and create the images with it (creating an image is just like loading a PC from scratch, not from recovery CDs)

Ultimately, you have to use the operating system that fits your needs the best. I still have a Windows XP machine (Toshiba Satellite P25-526 laptop) that will eventually be Linux - I will NOT be upgrading to Vista at all.

rayh wrote: I will NOT be upgrading to Vista at all.

Welcome to the club
The only way I see myself getting close to Vista is if I need to use it at work (highly unlikely), or if I buy a new Thinkpad and it comes with it already installed, in which case I predict a very fast transition back to Linux.

With the speed that many Linux distributions are getting more userfriendly and getting more support from hardwaremanufacturers with drivers and support, I think MS is on the way downhill now. Just take the fact what a copy of Win XP Home cost compared to Linux, witch is ,in most cases, free of charge says alot. The main reason's for me to switch over to Linux (SuSE) are security and price. I payed approx $70 for a boxed version with 2 DVD's 5 CD's user manuall and 90 days support) It ships with lot's of apps for everyday use such as OpenOffice Firefox, well, I could go on forever. If one wouldn't want a manual and box etc just download a copy from the suse site free. Win XP Home Swe would cost me approx $345, then I have to add antivirus and applikation's to that.

This is my opinion for what it's worth....

Linux got problems just like Windows and Mac OS X does. Or rather, if you switch to Linux you will experience problems.

One of them is webapplications that are optimised for IE. Fortunately that problems is getting smaller.

Another is hardware support. This is today limited to specific areas, mostly graphics and wifi. In general there is no OS that have better hardware support than Linux. See this keynote speech (http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html) for further info.

Yet another area is support for proprietary formats. I am here referring to formats like MP3, Windows Media, Realmedia, Quicktime and more. In general you have to buy a license from the owners of these formats before you're allowed to play these formats. If you are producing a distro that the whole world can download for free, how much do you think you'd have to pay for a license? You can get support for these formats by installing codec packs but are whether they are legal is highly doubtful.

In regards to specific windows applications that you need, there are various options like vmware and Wine. I've read that Wine has come far and is actually working quite well, but I haven't used Wine myself so I don't really know.

Naturally, you'll have to switch to some Linux alternatives for various applications you are using. I don't consider this a bad thing in general since the Linux desktop has become quite good and the applications are in many ways just as good as the applications you find for Windows. I would even say that many are better. Of course that is just my opinion and it all depends on your needs, etc.

One of the great things about Linux is that it costs nothing to try it out, you can just download a liveCD ISO file, burn it, boot it and you got a fully working Linux desktop to play with.

jdhurst wrote:If you get tired of Windows updates, you should try Ubuntu. Easily 10x as many Ubuntu updates as Windows - it never stops

... JD Hurst

Good thing you have a smiley at the end of that sentence because you can't really compare those two.

Windowsupdate updates provides updates to the OS and to a few applications (primarily IE).

When you fetch updates Ubuntu (or any other Linux distro for that sake), you fetch updates for your entire system (OS + all applications). I consider this better than Windows where every application have their own update feature (if they have one at all).

Furthermore, Ubuntu releases updates ASAP after a given bug/security fix has been released by a given open source project. Microsoft have switched to releasing updates once a month (AFAIK).