How often do people migrating to Linux run into problems?

[emmett]

Hi,

I have recently migrated an old ThinkPad 600x with Windows 98 to dual-boot Ubuntu without a hitch. Everything 'just worked' out of the box as they say. I now have two Windows XP machines looking at me and just begging to be converted to dual boot with a Linux distro.

However, all the horror stories from even the most experienced users (far more experienced than me, anyway) about what can go wrong with Linux and XP and NTFS partitions have filled me with dread.

So what I asked myself was: 'are these people and stories a self-selecting minority?'

I am not suggesting that these people are complainers or 'difficult'. But, because they have problems that they write about in order to help everybody else, do they become more visible and so skew the overall impression of what's going on out there?

So what I'm interested in is a poll capturing as far as possible the percentage of people experiencing trouble-free compared to problematic convertion to dual-boot.

I know that the purists will argue that setting up a single-boot from the get-go would avoid all these problems and I am confident that I and most other people with a dual boot will find the Windows partition increasingly unused until they reach the point where they just delete it to free space. But until we reach that stage most people like me who have had the misfortune of being tied to Windows (for, what, fifteen years?) are just more comfortable with a dual boot system to begin with. So that's why I'm focusing on the dual-boot community.

[carbon_unit]

Well, It's true that forums seem to be filled with problems because people having problems tend to post hoping to get their problem resolved while those without problems tend to go on with life instead of posting on a forum.

Personally I don't believe dual booting causes any problems itself. I don't think that single booting eliminates any problems either.
Linux has problems writing to NTFS partitions so if you need to have data available to both XP and Linux simply setup a FAT32 partition to do this with or use a USB thumbdrive. This situation is getting better but the FAT32 partition or thumbdrive solution has some advantages over trying to write to NTFS.

X86 hardware is a hodge podge of various hardware and the particular blend you have has a lot to do with how successful you will be with Linux. There is No Standard Hardware Configuration. If you have a computer built with fully supported hardware you will be fine, otherwise you may have to work out some problems in a fourm somewhere.
Every person uses their computer in a different way and for different things so some Linux distros may be better suited for you than others depending on how you use your computer.
Thinkpads in general are pretty well supported except the T43 with the funky SATA-PATA bridge. It seem to cause installation problems with some distros. At this point SATA can be used but expect some problems. It's best to avoid SATA drives for just a little bit longer until they get the bugs worked out in Linux.

Some good distros to keep your eye on are:
Ubuntu and its derivatives (Kubuntu and Xubuntu)
PCLinuxOS
and my favorite, Xandros.
Google will help you find any of those.

[jdhurst]

I don't care for dual boot for (1) the issues you mention and (2) the fact the only one system can run at any one time. The only time I see value is if you are a gamer. I am not. All that said, I use VMware to run multiple simulataneous systems.

With respect to Linux, it appeals to a different audience than Windows. It is not better than Windows - just different. Modern Linux (say SuSE, Fedora (yuch - serious bloat personified), or Ubuntu), they install just fine in my experience. Been there, done that. What people find once Linux is running is (1) installation of some applications is tricky (calling for make and install rather than just setup) and (2) some needed application (usually business) is just not available in Linux. Free applications are not always what is needed no matter how good they are from a technical perspective. Ubuntu has gone a long way to easing the setup issues with Synaptics (again - been there, done that)

For me (and me only, in my opinion), there are 300,000,000 Windows licenses out there and that is more than 90 percent of the market, so there is always the application I need in a Windows format. That is important to me, so I use Windows as my host system.

I use VMware and have used and am familiar with Red Hat 6, 6.1, 7, 7.3, 8, and 9; SuSE 9 Pro; Gentoo 2004 (won't run correctly in VMware); Fedora Core (the resulting machine was just too big and too slow); Ubuntu 5.05 and Ubuntu 6.06. That is a lot of Linux, and it still doesn't run software that I must have, and probably never will.

Finally, look at any techical forum from 50,000 feet up. Questions about "how do I make Linux work?" run 2 to 1 or better the Windows questions. Linux is a decent, workable system, but it remains just more difficult than Windows in all its finery. If you like it, can use it, and it fits your needs, by all means use it.

... JD Hurst

[xtern0]

Man, now this post should get some opinions....

OK. I'm a purist, dual-boot is for weenies. ;) Now having expressed my personal opinion, I'll give you my 2 cents....

Dual boot is rarely the problem. That is, the modern boot loaders generally work just dandy. The problem is drivers.

Now, I don't know about everyone else, but I have to perform an annual "Format and Reinstall" on my Windows boxes anyway. So just time your dual boot experimentation to take place about the same time as the annual "Format and Reinstall Windows" party that we all have.

Other than that, I second the other responses on almost all points, except distro preference.

Do keep in mind that Linux is still a long way from being a normal home user's OS; I personally feel that it works just fine in a business environment (standard hw configs, equipment, and apps that focus on functionality as opposed to looking pretty). If you are a gamer or home user that has lots of kiddie apps, then stick with MS for another few years. If you are a small business owner with an admin on hand (or are an admin yourself), I think you'd be nuts to pay for software licensing when you can get the same core functionality for free.

Cheers,

X

[jdhurst]

Man, now this post should get some opinions....
<snip>
Now, I don't know about everyone else, but I have to perform an annual "Format and Reinstall" on my Windows boxes anyway. <snip>
If you are a small business owner with an admin on hand (or are an admin yourself), I think you'd be nuts to pay for software licensing when you can get the same core functionality for free. <snip>
X

First, let me say "good post" Thanks.

Annual Windows re-install? I'm still working on the initial install 3 years on with no problems. Possibly consider better maintenance of your windows system.

There are a myriad of Windows business applications for which no reasonable Linux counterpart exists that would work for me. The biggest one that I use is QuickBooks. CommView is better than Ethereal. It is exactly in this space that freeware does not measure up to paid-ware with support. I pay for software with my own hard-earned bucks, and I would rather do that than suffer inadequacies in freeware (for my usage). Even on the Windows front, paid UltraEdit bows to no other product, free or not.

Of course, if a given application fits you, by all means use it. My opinions are only mine.
... JD Hurst

[xtern0]

Annual Windows re-install? I'm still working on the initial install 3 years on with no problems. Possibly consider better maintenance of your windows system.

We must agree to disagree if you are saying that a well-used, even well-maintained, 3 year old install of MS Windows xx runs as efficiently as a fresh install of MS Windows xx. I'd need to see some performance data before I'd even consider that a theory. Post some links, my opinion has been known to change.

Good post as well. In a strange way, I like to see a post that gets me a bit rankled once in a while. Livens an otherwise dull day.

Cheers,

X

[christopher_wolf]

*ahem*

LULZ U MUST KLEAN UR WINDOZE INSTAL LOL

Windows has to be cleaned more often than either BSD or Linux because, well, there is alot of stuff that you don't really use or need that runs in the background or gets installed via some program. Frequently, you have little to no clue where it went and it is slowly forgotten, thereby attaining the label of "Cruft"

I have worked off of 5 year Windows installs and, while not a problem, there have been times that older applications got in the way. Windows XP slimmed down is a treat for the average user; Linux, as you know, has gone the other way from the ground up to almost being a good enough desktop replacement for Windows. The problems lie in getting enough drivers, getting more cross-platform support, and getting most distros to play nice with each other when it comes to basic abilities (all won't be able to do this).

[jdhurst]

Annual Windows re-install? I'm still working on the initial install 3 years on with no problems. Possibly consider better maintenance of your windows system.

We must agree to disagree if you are saying that a well-used, even well-maintained, 3 year old install of MS Windows xx runs as efficiently as a fresh install of MS Windows xx. I'd need to see some performance data before I'd even consider that a theory. Post some links, my opinion has been known to change.

Good post as well. In a strange way, I like to see a post that gets me a bit rankled once in a while. Livens an otherwise dull day.

Cheers,

X

My systems are well used. My IBM Desktop runs 24x7x365 on broadband and has never been compromised. It starts as quickly and runs as quickly as when I first set it up.

My IBM T41 runs daily and is the machine I take to clients. It is heavily used and takes a good deal of punishment, although I shut it down each night. I use software that takes time to start (AntiVirus, Firewall, Cache Sentry, VPN, Access Connections, etc, etc) so it takes 3 to 4 minutes to start completely (as does the desktop), but then both machines have taken that long since day one.

Much different than others, I realize, but my computers are as fast now as when they were new. I also realize after reading and posting here that Cache Sentry plays a big part. I use Cache Sentry to limit cache to 20 Mb, 20 days for temp files and 180 days for non-critical, non-used cookies. AdAware Pro runs daily and deletes everything in the form of advertising, spyware and the like. I don't even bother quarantining found files - it just goes. Perfect Disk runs daily and keeps my hard drive running at low fragmentation with frequently used files in one area of the drive and little-used files elsewhere.

I use the laptop for email and such like on public transit and now believe the APS protection system is valuable in keeping the drive in top form.

I am sold on Registry First Aid. It has solved a few pickles and the newest version defrags the registry. I seem to have gained about a half-minute on startup.

So:
Defrag - daily, silently, automatically
AV - daily, silently, automatically
Spyware - daily, silently, automatically
Delete temporary internet files - daily, silently, automatically
Delete windows temp files - daily, silently, automatically
Delete my documents temp files -weekly, manually
Delete MRU list, dead links - monthly, manually
Run Registry First Aid - quarterly, manually

To the first discussion, the first four products are the paid software even though freeware counterparts exist. I *really* like the "daily, silent, automatic" approach. Set and forget.

There is no performance data for the above, but I assure you it is not a theory.

Cheers, ... JD Hurst

[jdhurst]

<snip>
I have worked off of 5 year Windows installs and, while not a problem, there have been times that older applications got in the way. <snip>

*This* is where Registry First Aid shines. I don't have any crud that I know of, and in Add/Remove Programs, I only have one (and the most recent) install of any and all programs. If a program (like FreeMem or Cain) adds itself again when I do an upgrade, I uninstall it all, delete the folders, restart, run Registry First Aid and install again. I don't permit any build-up of crud. Big programs, like newer versions of VMware, upgrade nicely without adding crud.
... JD Hurst

[christopher_wolf]

Oh yes; I run that and other registry cleaning tools on my T43 more than once daily. It *really* helps with everything.

[carbon_unit]

JD, I do the opposite of you. I run Linux most of the time and use VMWare to run XP so I can have Quickbooks. Still sometimes when troubleshooting windows networks I boot into XP to make things easier. Then I spend a bunch of time cleaning my XP system of the cruft it catches. I prefer linux so I don't have to spend as much time maintainig my system to keep it running top notch. I deal with windows problems all day, I don't want to deal with them at night too.

[jdhurst]

There are some good thoughts in this thread. It has really solidified my thinking and decision that (for me), a modicum of cash for solid, professional tools that work in the background on a "set/forget" basis has really paid off. I also do not like to spend my time managing Windows. And I do not. I was out on the patio this morning with my morning coffee doing invoicing up to Friday. I would rather make money than muck around maintaining Windows
... JD Hurst

[K0LO]

I was out on the deck all day too, unfortunately not enjoying a relaxing break like JD Hurst but rather cleaning algae and crud off the wood! As such, I missed most of this thread.

I'll add one more point that hasn't been made yet. I've used Windows since Windows 1.0 and every version inbetween and have gotten fairly good at troubleshooting typical Windows problems. Yet it always surprises me to hear some of the really experienced and knowledgeable Linux guys complain about Windows problems that are almost trivial to solve. My observation is that they really don't understand Windows beyond the superficial level and seem unwilling to do anything but complain about how stupid Microsoft was to do this or that. I often think that if they would only invest one-tenth of the effort that they put into learning Linux they could master Windows.

That being said, two years ago I decided to go over to the dark side and see what all of this Linux stuff was about. Starting with Knoppix, then Fedora, then Red Hat enterprise, Xandros, and finally Kubuntu, I've had a terrific time! Now I have a full-time Linux box on my home network as a file/printer server and my laptop can dual-boot Windows XP Tablet Edition or Kubuntu. Yes, it takes more work to get the bugs worked out of a Linux installation, but the feeling of satisfaction when you finally dig deep enough to really understand what's going on is hard to beat.

The most surprising thing to me is that by taking the time to learn a new operating system, I ended up learning more about computers in general and Windows in particular. I never expected that.

[xtern0]

The most surprising thing to me is that by taking the time to learn a new operating system, I ended up learning more about computers in general and Windows in particular. I never expected that.

That was the wisest statement I've heard in a while. I've admined Windows and *nix. The OS is simply a tool; the brand you use is irrelevant. In the right hands, the right tool (even a poorly designed one) will get the job done.

That being said...MS Windows is, hands down, the worst server OS I've ever laid hands on and I have spent way too many late nights learning to understand that operating system. On the other hand, I am the first to admit that MS Windows is the best desktop OS I've ever laid hands on. Given a long enough learning curve, a monkey can create all the TPS reports anyone could ever want using MS Windows. But keep in mind that my needs are beyond the average desktop user and I don't employ monkeys (they tend to throw sh!t and TPS reports all over the office); therefore, I dislike MS Windows for my particular needs and the needs of my firm.

I won't even go into the licensing fees, agents, monopolistic business practices, abuse of legal process, breaching contracts, buying out whoever they can't beat in court, crapping on hourly contractors, etc. Stuff that generally makes it a slimy company and one whose legal department requires a budget larger than the GDP of many countries. I've read too many judicial opinions and factual findings involving Microsoft; it is a very unethical and nasty organization, even by today's US Corporate standard. Even is someone manages to beat them in court, they just end up selling out. Disgusting. My dislike of Microsoft goes beyond just the product: I have made a conscious decision to boycott the company and their products whenever and wherever possible.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Didn't mean to rekindle an age-old debate, I was just commenting that most (not all) experienced end-users I know tend to format and reinstall MS Windows every 12-18 months; as a general rule, or because of necessity. So I just made a tongue in cheek comment about scheduling experimentation time.

Now what the heck was the original question?

Entertaining thread, if nothing else!

Cheers,

X

[christopher_wolf]

I think that was one of the best posts I have seen about Windows, BSD, and Linux implementations I have read in a long while, David.

[jdhurst]

<snip>
The most surprising thing to me is that by taking the time to learn a new operating system, I ended up learning more about computers in general and Windows in particular. I never expected that.

I'm back out on the patio this morning for breakfast and coffee
Too true, what you wrote. I still have Windows 1 in the basement. I have run everything from DOS 1 through to XP Pro except for Me and Windows 98. I have run a smattering of Linux as well.

On of the reaons I like VMware is it permits me to network unlike machines (I use Samba), to sandbox (making a copy of a machine is easy) and to isoldate machines (turn off the internal network). I can test things and if the answer is wrong, I can just delete the machine and start again with precisely the same setup.

All of this adds to learning. ... JD Hurst

[raja]

I installed Ubuntu 6.06 to dual boot with XP on my X40. No problems with installation at all. Have to see how it goes, but I am hoping that I wont any longer have to run 2 spyware cleaners, 2 antiviruses, use registry cleaners, defrag the disk and still end up having to reinstall once a year.