Thinkpads Forum

As a recent Linux convert, hopefully I can add a penny or two to the discussion. I've been through so many Linux distributions (OS variations) that I can comment on pretty much ALL of them. If it has a Live CD, I've probably got it. Starting with my own desktop I put Ubuntu on and its been great, though not without its issues. I would not suggest Ubuntu to the 'strict' end user. It is nice, but not without its frustrations. (and I'd steer clear of the 64 bit version... I'm using it and it has QUITE a few bugs). Since October (when I added Ubuntu to my desktop) I've played with literally about a 100 different distros. And I haven't found one better than PCLinuxOS. Everything I've thrown at that OS has just worked out of box using its Control Center (like Windows Control Panel, but gives you MORE control). When I first tested it out, I couldn't even FIND the Terminal, and honestly, haven't needed it yet.

In my quest to put an operating system on my old 600E I went through another batch of 'lightweight' distributions, but after many different installs, went with WinXP because it just ran the smoothest. Not that Linux wasn't stable and friendly, its just that XP (if you turn off a bunch of services) was just a bit more seamless. Programs open much faster (like Firefox), but I'm still a Linux fan.

I would suggest to any Linux Newbie to start with PCLinuxOS and Linux Mint (ubuntu based but ready to go). Get used to installing programs in both (both use a program called Synaptic).

Oh, for the Linux confused, the diehards throw around some 'lingo' that can scare you away, but if you just think of some of them this way:
Distro=Operating System
Package=program to install (or necessary associated program)
Repository=software warehouse
Debian and RPM are both types of package systems. (Ubuntu is Debian based and PCLinuxOS is RPM based)

Hope this helped, and if you have questions about any other distribution, send me a PM. I would also suggest Sabayon Linux... I liken it to what Vista should have been, but its based on Gentoo... which can have quite a few growing pains... but its graphically fantastic and easy to use.

I am another Linux N00b. Just started using it about 6 months ago. I switch back and forth between XP SP2 and Mandriva 2007.1. Probably spend a little more time in XP.

My take on it is this: if a N00b gets lucky, he may be able to run a distro out of the box with his hardware. This is especially true when the distro has a range of Propriatary drivers already included on the installation CD or DVD. If the distro will not run out of the box, then it does take a bit of geek (or a geeky friend) to get the hardware working properly. Once over the hardware hurdle, running typical applications can come pretty naturally.

The command line can be daunting for many, but for this old DOS user, it is not too bad, just different. I have had to learn how to do in Linux what I could do in DOS. It seems that it is difficult, if not neigh impossible to avoid the command line entirely.

I agree with Carbon_Unit above when he said something to the effect that once the box is up and running, his wife or child can manage just fine for typical tasks. Whether they could install Linux without significant issues depends on the hardware they are using and the distro they choose. If they can ferret out solutions on various forums and via Google (and the like), they will be much better equipped to overcome any obstacles.

Regarding the "free" software movement and philosophy, this can be a little difficult to grasp for a long time Windows user. When any typical Windows user sees the word "free", they think this means that it should not dent their wallet (or purse). When I first saw the term 'non-free repository', I thought this meant that I had to pay to use it. Not so, it turns out.

Well, this is my opinion on all of this. I do not claim to be any kind of Linux "expert".

FWIW, I have tried a half dozen distros on two different ThinkPads - T42 and a 600E.

Another "newbie" weighing in, though I'm a veteran of trying to figure out what people see in Linux. I think I've started to find it.

For years I have played around with Linux for lightweight installs on old systems, power setups on my desktop, etc. and have never really seen the appeal until I've really had to use it. It always just seemed like Windows, but more of a nuisance.

For a project I've been working on recently, I've been forced to use Linux. I installed Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon on my X61 and was surprised by how "just works"-y it was--setting up my printer was actually easier in Linux than Windows. Now there's progress.

But I'm still used to Windows--how am I supposed to learn to use Linux? As I said, I sort of have to use it for a project I'm working on, and through that project I've had to learn to do how a bunch of things. It takes a surprisingly little amount of working and configuring before you realize that you're becoming more proficient with the terminal and the new computing environment. I'm by no means up to my level of Windows proficiency in Windows, but I'm starting to understand how it all works. I was using Ubuntu the other day when a friend asked to see Vista's performance on my Thinkpad, and I realized that I hadn't bothered booting into Windows for a few days just because it wasn't any less convenient to use Linux.

So I'll say again that the best way to learn how to use Linux--in my limited experience--is to do something unrelated to Linux. The idea of sitting down and "learning Linux" just didn't work for me--I had to live with it as a tool, rather than a novelty, in order to comprehend it.

If you're buying a new PC and plan to use Linux, make sure there's a fair number of people using the same hardware as you. That off-brand wireless adapter may look like the same product for cheaper, but you might get stuck with no support in Linux. By contrast, popular hardware usually has very good software support in Linux and often cool little gimmicks, too. Our Thinkpads are a great example--lots of Thinkpad-specific hardware is supported natively in Ubuntu, and for an example of a cool gimmick search Google for Smackpad.

I think to best learn linux you just have to try it and try to get it to do the normal things your Windows machine does. NO windows machine works perfectly, there is always some piece of software or hardware that is a pain to get going right... and Linux is the same. My advice is load up a LiveCD of any distribution, (I listed some good user friendly ones earlier) and open up the internet (most configure it on boot up), open up the music player and movie player. Does if feel comfortable? How does it compare to what you're currently using? Download and open a word document, most distributions come with a document handler (usually openoffice or koffice), and both handle .doc and excel files easily, and without issue.

Odds are, you won't have to get into a terminal to do 'everyday' stuff. Its the tweaking of the system that might lead you to the terminal to get things just right, and there are a HUGE amount of friendly folks readily available and very willing to help. And google is your friend. As far as wireless goes, its my experience that if you're buying an after market (not preinstalled) card, get one with an atheros chipset (do a quick search), most distributions I've used recognize and configure this at boot, and within seconds you're surfing.

I use my ubuntu OS 90% of the time now. I really only get into my XP partition for fun (literally to play some old games).

I'd also qualify as a noob when it comes to the penguin world...although I've been playing around with a lot of distros...and for a while.

Mint should probably work out of the box on T61, as should Fedora 8. I've never owned one of those ThinkPads, but these worked fine on all of the T60/T60p/R60 units that I've had.

My suggestion would be staring with a "live" CD (for Mint) and evaluating whether you're getting the hang of it to your liking. Installing it as a double boot (which is the way I have it, and would recommend it) is a breeze.

My final words to OP on this: don't let it become a chore. Have fun exploring, otherwise it's not worth it IMHO.

pikaia wrote:I think to best learn linux you just have to try it and try to get it to do the normal things your Windows machine does.

But that gets back to the question I asked the original poster: what are those "normal" things you expect your machine to do? For me, opening a .doc or Excel file is very much out of the ordinary. Maybe a couple of times a year some management type will send me a Microsoft format file that I can't get away with ignoring. So far (knock on wood) Open Office has dealt with those...

On the other hand, "normal" for me is to develop & test simulation code that runs on our BlueGene, visualize the output, and write the occasional paper or report (in Latex) about the results. Linux does that just fine.

Good point, james. But I'm assuming since the OP used the term 'pure end user' that a "normal" user is one who will need to access those types of applications (internet, some sort of office functionality, listen to music or watch a movie). If you can easily access these in Linux (using whichever distro), with little to no issue, I think you're well on your way to being a bit more comfortable. And if you run into issues, a quick google search and maybe 30 minutes (max) of frustration will lead you to a solution... and without having to restart your PC every 2 minutes.

I'm not a Windows Hater, I use it on my 600E, but Windows was just as difficult to get working properly (getting dvd codecs to work and music format conversion all are a bit 'user hostile' at first... and sometimes still are, but in Linux they are quite simple. In Windows, you only have the option of 2-3 themes without using crappy windows blinds.) I honestly think that its easier for a Windows user to switch to Linux, than it is to switch to Mac. I still want to kick a Mac whenever I have to use it. But I know a lot of people that prefer them, because they took the time to learn.

pikaia wrote:I still want to kick a Mac whenever I have to use it.

Luckily I don't have to do that. But I sometimes see presentations &c given by people who do, and quite honestly they make me nauseous. The fisheye icon magnifier, the sort of slurpy effect where closing a window gets it sucked into an icon... How can people stand to look at that stuff all day?

Everybody who uses a computer right was a rookie/novice/newbie at some point in their life. Linux is, as has been pointed out, another OS. It's different from Windows and not quite the same as OS X (perhaps 2nd cousins or something). Using Linux is a learned skill just like using DOS or Windows or any of the MAC OS iterations.

If you want to use a computer, the first question must always be "why?". In other words decide what it is that you do that can be done better/more effectively/more efficiently with a computer. Decide whether the cost (monetary, time, lost opportunities for doing something else) is worth the effort. Then decide how to implement your decision.

I use Linux on my own personal machine (IBM T20). Most of my professional work has been done with some sort of DOS/Windows machine. Whatever I have done professionally, I can also do in a Linux environment, but the customer has typically insisted on DOS/Windows so that's what I use. The switch between Linux and Windows on a daily basis (i.e., between the work environment, and home environment) is no big deal. Are there things that can't be done in a Linux environment? Yes, but it has nothing to do with the capabilities, stability, mobility, expandability, or any other "-ility" of either platform, but rather the willingness of someone to provide the appropriate tool in one environment or the other. The differences narrow every day, and not only due to such things as VMWare, or WINE, or any virtualization technique.

Decide what you want to do, do your research, you'll be surprised and perhaps even pleasantly surprised with the open source OS world.

Short answer, "Yes".

OK, I figured out how to copy an ISO onto a CD. I made a copy of the latest (I think) pcLinuxOs with GNOME.

Instead of the thinkpad, I am running the CD on the old notebook computer that my new T61 replaced. Part of the fun, I hope, is that my old computer will get new life and run faster with Linux instead of windows.

Plus, it will be a relatively non-virus attracting machine!

OK, so I'm running the CD and I'm actually writing this message on it.

However, I had to plug my ethernet cable directly into my machine instead of using my wireless PC card because the computer/Linux won't recognize it.

So, this is a problem. I found some advice that said I should do the root prompt thing, so I typed the suggested: "dmesg -c"
and that gave me this:
NTFS volume version 3.1.
NTFS volume version 3.1.
Clocksource tsc unstable (delta = -130356553 ns)
8139too Fast Ethernet driver 0.9.28
ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:10.0[A] -> Link [LNKB] -> GSI 10 (level, low) -> IRQ 10
eth0: RealTek RTL8139 at 0xe083e800, 08:00:46:5b:65:43, IRQ 10
eth0: Identified 8139 chip type 'RTL-8139C'
eth0: link up, 100Mbps, full-duplex, lpa 0x45E1
eth0: no IPv6 routers present
eth0: link up, 100Mbps, full-duplex, lpa 0x45E1
eth0: no IPv6 routers present
pccard: PCMCIA card inserted into slot 1
pccard: card ejected from slot 1
pccard: PCMCIA card inserted into slot 1
[root@localhost guest]#
[root@localhost guest]# ./rc.wlan start
bash: ./rc.wlan: No such file or directory
[root@localhost guest]# /etc/rc.d# ./rc.wlan start
bash: /etc/rc.d#: No such file or directory

So, is there some sorta trick? Is there a driver-seeking software or something?

Kelton

The wireless command is iwconfig. And you use lspci to get the internal name of the cards (it'll spit up the names of all the other hardware as well...).

So you don't actually want to use iwconfig, you will be using whatever graphical network manager PCLinuxOS has to do it. However, you will have to install drivers, most likely using the commandline (unless PCLinuxOS has some easy way of doing it). First step in getting the driver is finding the name with lspci.

Thanks.

Well.. here is what I got, but I'm not sure if it means anything:
[guest@localhost ~]$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8363/8365 [KT133/KM133] (rev 03)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8363/8365 [KT133/KM133 AGP]
00:07.0 ISA bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C686 [Apollo Super South] (rev 40)
00:07.1 IDE interface: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C586A/B/VT82C686/A/B/VT823x/A/C PIPC Bus Master IDE (rev 06)
00:07.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 1a)
00:07.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 1a)
00:07.4 ISA bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C686 [Apollo Super ACPI] (rev 40)
00:07.5 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C686 AC97 Audio Controller (rev 50)
00:07.6 Communication controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. AC'97 Modem Controller (rev 30)
00:0a.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1420 PC card Cardbus Controller
00:0a.1 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1420 PC card Cardbus Controller
00:0e.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments TSB12LV26 IEEE-1394 Controller (Link)
00:10.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ (rev 10)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Rage Mobility P/M AGP 2x (rev 64)

Anything useful in there?

Well the brand name written on the wireless card might help (even though it sometimes doesn't help).

It was plugged in when you ran the command, right?

Anyways, if it's a a Cardbus wireless card (most G cards), it should be listed (it's not). If it's an old-style PCMCIA (most B cards are), then you will have to use a different command to see the name ("cardctl ident").

Yes, it is an older linksys 802.11b card. wpc11 version 3

I even went to the linksys web site and thought I found the driver, but after downloading it... man... I'm not sure what to do with the various tidbits that showed up!

It certainly didn't install itself in the way .exe files do!

I am due to buy a new wireless system, but in the mean time, I'd like to figure out how to manage problems in Linux. This, I guess, will be my first problem.

Odd. From googling the WPC11 v3, it seems to have a Prism2 chipset, which should have worked right away.

How about running "iwconfig", to see if the card may have actually been detected.

Naw, that linux driver is just the source and you have to build it yourself. Not for the newcomer.
I would hit the PCLos forums and search for wpc11.

If your WPC11 ver. 3 is indeed a Prism II card, and I believe it is, it should be ready to connect with no additional drivers. Please let us see, as root, or sudo, lshw -C network. Also as root or sudo, iwconfig.

I typed in the letters/code that you mentioned under that command line thing, but I get "command not found".

Is that what I was supposed to do?

"Please let us see, as root, or sudo, lshw -C network. Also as root or sudo, iwconfig."

He means you need a command line terminal with root rights. This can be done by one of these three methods

(1) opening a root terminal and typing "iwconfig" without the quotes
(2) opening a regular terminal and typing "su" then supplying the root password then typing "iwconfig" without the quotes
(3) running "sudo iwconfig" from a regular terminal which gives root rights for that one command.

with "iwconfig", I am getting...

"lo no wireless extensions"

Try "cardctl ident", to see which chipset it is.

With "su cardctl ident", I get "su: user cardctl does not exist".

Shucks!

"cardctl ident" works without being root (you use sudo instead of su anyways).

Thanks folks,

I decided to give another version ("distro") a try.

I am running Mint Xfce4 off a CD right now and everything seems to work perfectly.

I suppose I will learn why this isn't every bit as good as Windows, but for now, it is running faster than my windows did on this old notebook *and* it's doing it off the CD!

Hopefully this hints as much better speeds once I get it installed on the actual hard drive.

The wireless, sleep, and everything else seems to be solid!

Cool!

Now, I'm going to look into installing it on a partition on this old thing. I'll need to seriously clean out my hard drive to make room for this and XP.

Thanks,
Kelton

After installing it on the actual hard drive... partitioned with XP... it isn't connecting wireless.

The Wicd Manager is showing Linksys, but it is "failing to connect".

It worked when going off the CD. Not sure why.

Which wireless card do you have?

I typed some suggested stuff (in quotes) in the terminal, and here is what I get. Mint, at least, seems to "see" my equipment.

If you see anything below that looks informative, do tell!


“/usr/lib/linuxmint/mintWifi/mintWifi.py ”

* I. scanning WIFI PCI devices...
-------------------------
* II. querying ndiswrapper...
-------------------------
* III. querying iwconfig...
lo no wireless extensions.

eth0 no wireless extensions.

eth1 IEEE 802.11b ESSID:"linksys#" Nickname:""
Mode:Managed Frequency:2.437 GHz Access Point: 00:06:25:60:62:BD
Bit Rate:2 Mb/s Sensitivity=1/3
Retry short limit:8 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off
Encryption key:off
Power Management:off

wlan0_rename IEEE 802.11b ESSID:"linksys#" Nickname:""
Mode:Managed Frequency:2.437 GHz Access Point: 00:06:25:60:62:BD
Bit Rate:2 Mb/s Sensitivity=1/3
Retry short limit:8 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off
Encryption key:off
Power Management:off
Link Quality=45/70 Signal level=-50 dBm Noise level=-95 dBm
Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0
Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0

-------------------------
* IV. querying ifconfig...
eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 08:00:46:5B:65:43
UP BROADCAST MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:522 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:48024 (46.8 KB)
Interrupt:10 Base address:0xc800

lo Link encap:Local Loopback
inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0
UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1
RX packets:6 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:6 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
RX bytes:476 (476.0 b) TX bytes:476 (476.0 b)

-------------------------
* V. querying DHCP...
There is already a pid file /var/run/dhclient.pid with pid 5566
killed old client process, removed PID file
Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client V3.0.5
Copyright 2004-2006 Internet Systems Consortium.
All rights reserved.
For info, please visit http://www.isc.org/sw/dhcp/

eth1: unknown hardware address type 801
eth1: unknown hardware address type 801
Listening on LPF/wlan0_rename/00:06:25:aa:ef:1a
Sending on LPF/wlan0_rename/00:06:25:aa:ef:1a
Listening on LPF/eth1/
Sending on LPF/eth1/
Listening on LPF/eth0/08:00:46:5b:65:43
Sending on LPF/eth0/08:00:46:5b:65:43
Sending on Socket/fallback
DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0_rename to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 6
DHCPDISCOVER on eth0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 3
DHCPOFFER from 192.168.1.1
DHCPREQUEST on wlan0_rename to 255.255.255.255 port 67
DHCPACK from 192.168.1.1
bound to 192.168.1.104 -- renewal in 38361 seconds.
-------------------------
* VI. querying nslookup google.com...
Server: 68.87.68.162
Address: 68.87.68.162#53

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: google.com
Address: 72.14.207.99
Name: google.com
Address: 64.233.187.99
Name: google.com
Address: 64.233.167.99

lshw -C network

*-network

description: Instant Wireless Network PC Card

product: ISL37300P

vendor: The Linksys Group, Inc.

physical id: 0

version: RevA

slot: Socket 1

resources: irq:11

*-network

description: Ethernet interface

product: RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+

vendor: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.

physical id: 10

bus info: pci@0000:00:10.0

logical name: eth0

version: 10

serial: 08:00:46:5b:65:43

size: 100MB/s

capacity: 100MB/s

width: 32 bits

clock: 33MHz

capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list ethernet physical tp mii 10bt 10bt-fd 100bt 100bt-fd autonegotiation

configuration: autonegotiation=on broadcast=yes driver=8139too driverversion=0.9.28 duplex=full latency=128 link=yes maxlatency=64 mingnt=32 module=8139too multicast=yes port=MII speed=100MB/s

*-network DISABLED

description: Wireless interface

physical id: 1

logical name: wlan0_rename

serial: 00:06:25:aa:ef:1a

capabilities: ethernet physical wireless

configuration: broadcast=yes driver=hostap driverversion=0.4.4-kernel firmware=1.3.5 multicast=yes wireless=IEEE 802.11b


Now, with “iwconfig”, I get...

iwconfig

lo no wireless extensions.



eth0 no wireless extensions.



eth1 IEEE 802.11b ESSID:"linksys#" Nickname:""

Mode:Managed Frequency:2.437 GHz Access Point: 00:06:25:60:62:BD

Bit Rate:2 Mb/s Sensitivity=1/3

Retry short limit:8 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off

Encryption key:off

Power Management:off



wlan0_rename IEEE 802.11b ESSID:"linksys#" Nickname:""

Mode:Managed Frequency:2.437 GHz Access Point: 00:06:25:60:62:BD

Bit Rate:2 Mb/s Sensitivity=1/3

Retry short limit:8 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off

Encryption key:off

Power Management:off

Link Quality=42/70 Signal level=-54 dBm Noise level=-96 dBm

Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0

Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0

DHCPACK from 192.168.1.1
bound to 192.168.1.104 -- renewal in 38361 seconds.

Looks to me like you are connected. Can you browse the web? Case closed???

No, I can't.

Under PcLinuxOs, none of that juicy stuff showed up in the terminal window... so I know something good has happened.

The solution could be as simple as clicking on a few things. Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar.

Just fooling around, I managed to make even the ethernet connection not work and haven't figured out what I did.

Yep. When I saw that bunch of text go scrolling down the screen, I was thinking "yes! This is good!".

Unfortunately, the newbie in me took over and was unable to do anything with the info.

Bfskinnerpunk wrote:No, I can't.

Under PCLinuxOs, none of that juicy stuff showed up in the terminal window... so I know something good has happened.

The solution could be as simple as clicking on a few things. Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar.

Just fooling around, I managed to make even the ethernet connection not work and haven't figured out what I did.

Yep. When I saw that bunch of text go scrolling down the screen, I was thinking "yes! This is good!".

Unfortunately, the newbie in me took over and was unable to do anything with the info.

Under PCLinuxOS things like this are usually handled with the PCLinuxOS Control Center. Usually, there is no need to resort to the command line since there are graphical tools for most of these things. Also, you would probably do better asking questions like this on the respective distro forum. For PCLinuxOS just go to:

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php