Thinkpads Forum

GomJabbar wrote:First of all, I agree with the others here that cloning a drive from one computer to a completely different computer is generally a bad idea. You might get lucky and not have too much trouble, but if it is not working even after a repair install you should just cut your losses and start fresh.

Unfortunately, if I started fresh, my losses would only be starting (when considering the effort to get them configured the way I had them). I actually *did* recently have to re-install from scratch on my desktop machine recently and, before I did, I made sure to print out a list of everything in "Add/Remove Programs" in WinXP so that I would remember to install everything back again. The list was five pages. But I digress...

The other reason I have to figure out a solution is because this is part of my job (tech support). People bring me all assortments of crashed drives and misbehaving computers, and I actually had a machine with similar symptoms (the WinXP not booting) brought to me recently, so I need to know how to fix it.

Turns out that I *did* fix it. Here's what I had to do:
1 - Do a fresh install of WinXP on the partition (wiping out everything already there).
2 - Boot a Windows live-cd like BartPE so that I can have unfettered access to all system files
3 - Plug the old laptop's drive in with a USB-IDE adaptor
4 - Copy all folders and files EXCEPT FILES IN THE ROOT DIRECTORY from the old drive to the new drive
5 - Reboot with the WinXP CD and do a repair install

Worked like a charm. It appears that, somehow, the boot sector code on the partition wasn't loading the ntldr properly or something... and a fresh install of WinXP put all of that right, and then I just made sure not to copy over it when I copied the other files from the old drive.

Mercifully, sound is audible and WinXP is claiming 2h30m for the battery. Okay... so I'm getting less crestfallen about my purchase.

I've also got my Ubuntu partition booting. Sound is audible with *that*, as well. Battery life is reported as about 2 hours. And it hasn't hung randomly on me, yet.

So now, I have to figure out what's different between my Debian and Ubuntu configurations that's causing such different results with sound, power management, and system freezing.

As a first step, I did an "lsmod | sort" with both of them and diff'd them. I was pretty alarmed by the number of differences (considering how Ubuntu is a Debian derivation). Part of this might be due to the fact that my Debian is running 2.6.25 and Ubuntu is at 2.6.22. I'll have to boot Debian to 2.6.22 and do the lsmod again and see what's different.

GomJabbar wrote:Your rant seems to imply your frustration with the time involved to get this to work.

Actually, no. The Windows XP issue was just one aspect. Once I realized that it didn't even want to boot, I just decided to save that for later and focus on the Linux part (which is what most of the rant focused on).

GomJabbar wrote:Secondly, it appears you chose to buy a ThinkPad without really considering the specific hardware in the machine.

Okay, I'll try to spell it out a little more clearly. Before deciding which laptop to buy, I went on a few linux laptop forums and specifically asked about which WUXGA laptops people would recommend if I didn't want to hassle with binary or out-of-mainline-kernel drivers, special configurations to get XYZ to work, etc. The dominant recommendation was "Thinkpad". They didn't say "Get a Thinkpad X41p slash Q dash 3.47 subpart 7... and make sure to tell the customer-service rep that you don't want mini-pci-express". They said "Thinkpads are great... no problems". Their statements were... I'll be generous and say they were inaccurate.

GomJabbar wrote:If ease of installation of Linux was the primary consideration, you should have bought one of the Linux configured machines.

It wasn't the primary consideration. Getting a WUXGA screen was the primary consideration (which rules out the preloaded Linux offerings from Lenovo). After that, getting one that was linux-friendly was *also* a concern.

GomJabbar wrote:Thirdly it appears to me that you are ranting against the ThinkPad community or perhaps the Linux community for giving you bad purchasing advice.

Partly. Part of it is to remind folks that they're doing a disservice to other users (and possibly to the Thinkpad's image) if they make blanket "Thinkpads are great linux machines" statements. Another aim of the rant was to, hopefully, help get a dissenting opinion in the search hits. Like I said before, if you google for "thinkpad linux", you get a bunch of rosy opinions. You have to actually google for the individual problems (which you wouldn't know to google for until you actually *bought* it and ran into the problems yourself) to come across the bad news. Maybe this thread will turn up in someone's search *before* they buy a Thinkpad and they'll be saved the grief they were in for.

GomJabbar wrote:I don't see where you asked any advice at this forum before making your purchase.

Because, as a Thinkpad forum, you're probably partial to them. It's the same reason I don't ask a Honda dealer which brand of car gets great mileage. I posted my queries to brand-neutral "laptop linux" forums.

jemenake wrote:.. I've gotta get some of this stuff off of my chest.

Perhaps a therapist would serve you well......

I am running Ubuntu Hardy 64bit on my T61p and everything works on my machine except hibernate.

If you have been playing with Linux for a while, you should've known that it is often not straightforward to have Linux run with cutting edge hardware/softwares. For example, you have the 2.6.25 kernel, which Nvidia Linux driver clearly states that they just begin to support with their recent 173.x driver. As you mentioned that T61p and the Dell Inspiron 1720 are probably the only two choices that you had, and considering the Dell also uses Nvidia card (unless you want to have the integrated X3100 GPU), you probably would have run into the same problem on the 1720.

As for the battery life problem, it is well known that the power consumption under Linux is usually higher than it is under XP. A simple Google search would lead you to a lot of articles/reviews regarding this. It has nothing to do with whether you are on a Dell or Thinkpad, XP almost always use less power.

As for the wifi driver, if you really had done your homework before you purchase the Thinkpad, you would've seen that the Intel wifi cards in general have much better Linux support than the Atheros cards. Again, a simple Google search would bring you tons of article regarding this.

PS: You can find lots of information regarding install Linux on Thinkpad from http://www.thinkwiki.org

dickeywang wrote:If you have been playing with Linux for a while, you should've known that it is often not straightforward to have Linux run with cutting edge hardware/softwares.

True. So, if you want to avoid this, then you could either: A) get an older laptop with components that are now all supported in the mainline kernel (but also with an older, slower CPU), or B) get a laptop from a manufacturer that tries to make linux-friendly hardware by mating older, kernel-supported components (when possible) with a newer, faster CPU. It was my hope that I was going with option B by getting a Thinkpad, but that turned out to not be the case.

dickeywang wrote:As you mentioned that T61p and the Dell Inspiron 1720 are probably the only two choices that you had, and considering the Dell also uses Nvidia card (unless you want to have the integrated X3100 GPU), you probably would have run into the same problem on the 1720.

I didn't say that I wouldn't. If I had known that I would have hit the same problems either way, then I would have stayed with Dell, spent the extra $200 and gotten a wonderous 17" screen to boot. As I've started earlier, my only reason for switching was that I was led to believe that Thinkpads (not specific models or configurations, but Thinkpads in general) are categorically more linux-friendly.

dickeywang wrote:As for the battery life problem, it is well known that the power consumption under Linux is usually higher than it is under XP.

I don't believe I have said anywhere that I got 2.5 hours on my old laptop with Windows and 1.5 on the Thinkpad with Linux. I got 2.5 hours with my old laptop with Linux and, with the same partition image on the Thinkpad, it's not 1.5 hours.

As for battery, try looking at "frequency scaling" section here.

Also, Fedora 9 uses a tickless kernel, which I've noticed gives me another 5-15% more battery life than on older releases of Fedora and Ubuntu.

jemenake wrote: So, if you want to avoid this, then you could either: A) get an older laptop with components that are now all supported in the mainline kernel (but also with an older, slower CPU), or B) get a laptop from a manufacturer that tries to make linux-friendly hardware by mating older, kernel-supported components (when possible) with a newer, faster CPU. It was my hope that I was going with option B by getting a Thinkpad, but that turned out to not be the case.

Or you could buy the correct model in the first place. It takes less than 10 seconds to find a link to the Linux certified laptops on the Lenovo site. Go to the Lenovo site and search for "Linux Thinkpad".

Again, you bought the wrong model of Thinkpad and you are still trying to blame it on Lenovo. They sell the right hardware but you didn't buy it. You clearly did not do enough research. After you decided on a Thinkpad you should have asked around here and you would have probably purchased exactly what you wanted. You simply did not do that.
There are many variations of any particular model of Thinkpad. You just need to choose the right combination of parts. It is not Lenovo's fault that you made a wrong choice. They are not hiding the Linux machines.
As is evidenced by this thread many people run Linux on a Thinkpad and have no or few issues including me.

I would think that there's a couple of other things to consider here regarding some of OP's complaints...

No ThinkPad with WUXGA (or UXGA for that fact) will give you a great battery life under any OS, and definitely less of it in Linux than in Windows. That's a fact of life, and it has been stated on this forum before. Also, you don't order a discrete GPU if you're concerned about battery life. Two strikes against you, right there.

I own a very similar (apart from CPU) T61p right now, and am running Mint Daryna 4.0 as a part of a dual boot with Vista. Haven't tweaked it at all. Hibernation doesn't work but that's something I could care less about. If I were keeping the machine I'd probably find a way to get that going as well.

ThinkPads are great, but not flawless machines. Doing your research on this forum (and this section of it, but not limited to it) would've saved you a ton of grief.

To put it this way: I've owned a scary number of ThinkPads, and have been playing with Linux for a couple of years. I still come here to ask for suggestions on what distro would work best with a particular machine. Because as much as I know ThinkPads and am not unfamiliar with Linux (although nowhere near your expertise) it is always good to hear a few more opinions, whether you agree with them or not, that is one of the main points of having a forum like this one IMHO.

Having said all of the above, good luck with getting your grievances resolved. I'm sure that most of them can be, with some patience and perseverance.

jemenake wrote:I was led to believe that Thinkpads (not specific models or configurations, but Thinkpads in general) are categorically more linux-friendly.

They are considered very friendly compared to many other laptops. This is due to the fact that Lenovo offers preloaded SUSE versions of their Thinkpads, which others have said you should have looked into. However they are different and often less powerful configurations from the Vista loaded Thinkpads.

A lot of Linux developers use Thinkpads which mean they have a vested interest in getting Linux working well on it. This is why there is a general impression that Linux works well on Thinkpads. Also, it does. Look at all the evidence around on the internet on different models the resources available for both distro specific problems and hardware specific.

I don't use Debian I stay away from it, but since you have experience and it is an older and ideologically based distro I can understand your use of it (Used widely as a server distro too). However more cutting edge distros and user friendly ones such as Ubuntu or Fedora might be the way to go. Support out of the box is generally better. Whereas Debian, I believe will not ship non open-source drivers.

Could you please summarise the things that currently are not working under Linux?

I got a new T61p in April, a few days before Hardy came out. I first tried installing Gutsy, had issues with the monitor and stuff, decided to just wait the few days. Hardy has worked really well out of the box. I really wanted to see how much I could get done without resorting to command line (which I really think needs to be eliminated - as a requirement - for linux to gain more mainstream use). I haven't tried to hibernate, and haven't tried to use the fingerprint reader though I have read some stuff on the forums that suggest it works to a limited extent. Otherwise, things are great. Don't notice too much of a CPU difference (maybe stepping is already enabled, I did notice a difference with my X40 on Feisty and before).

mikeyboy wrote:I really wanted to see how much I could get done without resorting to command line (which I really think needs to be eliminated - as a requirement - for linux to gain more mainstream use).

Not to go off-topic but....really? Eliminated? Honestly, I'd be lost without the command line. There really is a beauty to things like "sudo apt-get install" or chmod, or ls -l, or.....you get the picture. Yes, the command line can be daunting to newcomers but I don't think eliminating it is the solution to making Linux more mainstream.

I'm not saying shove the command line down a newbie's throat but there are some things that are just easier in the command line and some things that are easier with a GUI. It's this combination that, I feel, is an important feature of Linux.

mikeyboy wrote:I really wanted to see how much I could get done without resorting to command line (which I really think needs to be eliminated - as a requirement - for linux to gain more mainstream use).

Why eliminate one of the fundamental parts of Linux? There are so many people who are the exact opposite and do everything on the command line without an X terminal.

Realistically it's not going to happen. I understand what you're getting at though. That new users shouldn't have to drop down to the command line.

jemenake wrote:

dickeywang wrote:As for the battery life problem, it is well known that the power consumption under Linux is usually higher than it is under XP.

I don't believe I have said anywhere that I got 2.5 hours on my old laptop with Windows and 1.5 on the Thinkpad with Linux. I got 2.5 hours with my old laptop with Linux and, with the same partition image on the Thinkpad, it's not 1.5 hours.

Well, if you are still not happy with your new toy you should consider selling it (the quicker, the better) and get yourself another machine. Check for the component as power consumption DOES evolves depending on the machine itself (but you know already that, don't you?) And last just make sure the drivers are out there this time.

Tam

I bought a T61 with the SLED preload which I immediately erased and installed ubuntu hardy which came up just fine. Everything works as far as I can tell, compiz, wifi, bluetooth, suspend and the SD card reader all work, each of which surprised me. I haven't tried the firewire or fingerprint reader and I haven't tried hibernate. Main prob is the mouse cursor jumps around unless I disable the touchpad, but I don't think that's a linux issue.

I definitely knew better than to buy the nvidia graphics card, those things are just bad news all around, even for windows users. The Intel card is better in every way (power consumption, reliability, lower cost, open source linux drivers) except that the nvidia runs video games faster, but if I want video games I'll buy a gameboy. I've had about ten Thinkpads over the years and run Linux on all of them. There's often some minor weird device that doesn't work (it used to be the MWave modem) but for the most part the major distros install and work without fuss. It's really unfortunate that Lenovo won't sell the WUXGA screen with the Intel card but the WSXGA screen isn't bad. For WUXGA you really want it bigger anyway, 15" isn't enough.

Well, I can understand your disappointment; it's tough to buy something thinking it's going to be great and then it falls on its butt.

That said, I bought a T60 WSXGA+ with X1400 graphics and XP Home. Installed, for the first time, Linux (Ubuntu Gutsy). Had some issues with video resolution and getting Compiz working, but within a few days got everything working ok. Some of that was likely luck (wireless anyway), but I had nothing like the problems you seem to be having. As they say, "your mileage may vary".

.nox wrote:Maybe this isn't going to be of much help, but Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" worked pretty much in a plug'n'play fashion on my T61P 14.1" .... And Ubuntu LTS 8.04 "Hardy" works even better. Maybe I'm just not hardcore enough..

Sheesh.

I've been running Kubuntu (Breezy, Edgy, Feisty) on a T43p for three years now.

I just received my new T61p, and wireless (Intel 4965AGN) simply doesn't work with either Hardy or Knoppix 5.3.1. It works fine with XP.

I know others have done this without difficulty.

Color me disgusted.

Maybe I missed something in your post but did you consider that just maybe you took a huge wrong turn when you transferred a complete Linux hard drive from on brand name PC to another one and expected it to work?

Most people would decide it a huge error to transfer a hard drive with Windows XP installed tweaked to the hardware in a say Dell 600D, install the drive into a Toshiba dual core, lets say, and blast Toshiba because he had nothing but system failures and tweak work cropping up at him.

Did you consider formating the drive and installing your Linux distro from scratch with the drive inside the Thinkpad?

Bruised