Thinkpads Forum

Here's the thing-- I have some experience with DOS and substantially more working with Windows. I started using computers starting with a 386 system, so Windows was taking off at that point.

I have no experience with Linux but would like to try it out. The machines I have available are: A31, T41, T23, 570E, 380Z, and a 600E.

Which machine and which version of linux would you all recommend I start with? I'm looking for something relatively easy to learn to start out. Thanks for any suggestions.

Andy

What are your reasons for trying Linux?

If you value the freedom of code, Fedora and Ubuntu are both great. They have slightly different lineage, but both have great communities and excellent support. I'd suggest Ubuntu, knowing nothing else about you. Get the live disc, boot it, play around, and install if you like it.

The T41 is the most capable machine you listed, and if you try a modern distribution, it will take advantage of all you give it.

Then what do you want to learn? How to use it for desktop applications? Then your desktop environment will matter the most. GNOME is the default for Fedora and Ubuntu (and others) while KDE is more powerful... so there's more to learn to use it well.

If you want to learn administration, get a book for your distribution of choice. They are each a bit different. Not harder or easier, just different from each other in subtle ways.

Besides the tablet functionality, everything--and I mean everything--in Ubuntu 8.04 works on my X61 Tablet out of the box. Ubuntu makes it easy to use Linux without having to touch the command line. That is not to say that you shouldn't learn how to use the command line, but I think it's a pain and Ubuntu provides so many nice gooeys and frontends for Difficult Stuff that it's almost too easy to get lost in configuring and installing to your heart's delight.

Ubuntu is definitely my recommendation. It's been a few years since I used Fedora, but even at the time Ubuntu was way ahead.

Thanks for the responses.

The main reason I want to try Linux is for for self-enrichment. I don't support any Linux systems and its not required for my job. I just want to try out alternate systems. I've heard a lot about Ubuntu and it seems much more user friendly as both of you have suggested.

Regarding "command lines" - It sounds like the linux experience is similar to using Windows 3.x as a DOS shell. Is that a proper analogy?

virge wrote:Regarding "command lines" - It sounds like the linux experience is similar to using Windows 3.x as a DOS shell. Is that a proper analogy?

Yes and no. Yes in that you type commands, no in that there's MUCH more power to it. You can launch multiple tasks, feeding the output of one into the input of another just as an example. Windows Vista's command line is starting to get some of the functionality Linux has had for years.

virge wrote:Regarding "command lines" - It sounds like the linux experience is similar to using Windows 3.x as a DOS shell. Is that a proper analogy?

Nope...it's going to be so much better .

virge wrote: Regarding "command lines" - It sounds like the linux experience is similar to using Windows 3.x as a DOS shell. Is that a proper analogy?

Only in the sense that most of what you do in a Linux gooey can be done in the command line. Newer versions of Windows have attempted to hide and, later, actually eliminated the DOS-based structure of the OS, but the nature of Windows software was kind of murky for a while. Because the X Window System is explicitly a separate program from the Linux kernel, using Linux is indeed a bit like Windows 3.x, but much more enjoyable.

Once you feel comfortable with Linux, feel free to install DSL on one of the older Thinkpads.
DSL isn't very user friendly, but it will breathe new life into them.

EDIT: Sorry about the tinyurl, but the OS has an expletive (if you consider that one) in its name.

Mint will work out of the box on both A31 and T41, and it's pretty easy to get a hang of...many sub-versions are available, definitely worth a try IMO...

www.linuxmint.com

Enjoy!

Did I mention that using Windows 3.0 and DOS was a pain? A thank you to those of you who pointed out that this is going to be a much more pleasant experience. Otherwise I might have turned tail and run!

ajkula66: Thanks for the link to Mint. I like the idea that it will work with the A31 and T41 out of the box. Also the light green is very soothing....

Questions regarding Mint. The release notes recommend a fresh install instead of an upgrade from an older release. How does that work? Say I download this version of Mint and next month there is a newer release. When I go through a "fresh install" of the newer version, do I lose my settings and/or documents?

While I'm not sure if Mint does this by default, if you create two partitions and mount /home (which is where all your settings are) on the separate one, when you do a fresh install it only replaces the system files (not the configuration and settings).
In addition, I've heard it's more secure.

Virge,
Linux will blow your mind. I too go back to the early DOS days. I was enraged as I saw MS-DOS take the market, as I found CPM, IBM's preferred first pick, to be a much better O/S and there were thousands of free, good programs and games for CPM. Unfortunately, the copywrite holder was business stupid. He could not see that the much lower price per copy IBM offered him would make him stinking rich in under a year.

Young Con man Bill Gates recognized immediately how the IBM PC sales volume would make him rich beyond his dreams.

I became a bat file master. Unix and thus Linux terminal (command line) language is vastly more powerful than the small but useful DOS bat file language.

I must disagree with what has been said so far.
I think I know exactly what you wish to do. I have played around with Linux distros for three years now. I like Ubuntu but I think it is Puppy Linux 4.0 that will blow your socks off.

I have played around with Puppy since version 2... 3.4 impressed me so much that I routinely used it for surfing and writing.

Since Puppy 4.0 was released this year, I find my using it more often than my Ubuntu install in my Dell desktop and my Xubuntu in the TP T-23

You can easily install and use Ubuntu, Xubuntu,Kubuntu, D*mn Small Linux, Devil Linux, Feather Linux, Slax Kill Bill, Accelerated Knoppix, Geubuntu 7.10 Desktop, the new gui capable 1.XX version of System RescueCD, OpenCD Education Gold, Mandriva, Archie RC2 XFCE, Suse (KDE), Xandros OCE, Games Knoppix, Linspire, Austrumi, Vector, GoblinX,
Berry.

The only recent linux distro that stalls in my T-23, also stalls on all my PCs, (Dell XPS 400,
Dell GX60) --PCLinuxOS 2008-MiniMe

Following Puppy development has left me unimpressed with D*mn Small Linux, except it is about 25mb smaller. But Puppy puts the additional MB to extraordinary use!

Puppy 3.XX to 4.0 automatically creates a RAM disc & loads itself entirely into RAM, quickly!
It automates creating three special files on a pen drive that auto saves you settings, docs, downloads. Once you connect Puppy (still running form the Puppy CD and RAM Disc) to a pen drive (256mb does nicely), you have a blazingly fast booting and running PC.

Using the three Puppy files on my 8gb micro drive (which are slower than flash ram) I am booted and ready to go in 10 seconds!

I set aside 1gb for Puppy to use from the micro drive. Despite downloading\installing several programs, I have 90% of the one gig free to use. Unlike any distro I have used, Puppy 4.0 comes ready to play any radio stream or clip.
A decent ISO burner has been added.

One last consideration. I am impressed at Puppy project members clear communication skills. I have been involved with computers since I was the first Graduate student at University of Michigan to use the Main Frame Computer and IBM punch card machine to compose and print my thesis and articles for publication. I have never seen the clear communication skills Puppy project members employ from other OpenSource or commercial computing group.

More than any other factor, a macho, insider, even arrogant attitude reflected in very poor communications on the part of Linux enthusiasts & developer groups has kept Linux Distros from dominating the computing world. This arrogance is betrayed in the extreme refusal to consider communication of technical matters by standing in the shoes of the average computer user. Like people who drive cars, the average person should not be expected to be a technician in order to operate a PC. And learning and knowing how to work a cryptically designed and documented O/S does not make anyone a superior being.

Most people who use any tool does not wish to (nor will they) worship its esoteric difficulties. They have other skills, talents, and interests.

All Puppy needs is marketing funds like Unbuntu project has and it could overnight become a major problem for Microsoft and PC makers.

Bruised

Oh yes, one more data point: I installed Ubuntu 6.10 LTS on my ThinkPad 750P. That's got a 33MHz 486 CPU and 36MB RAM.

It doesn't run anything with graphics, but the rest of it seems OK.

virge wrote:Questions regarding Mint. The release notes recommend a fresh install instead of an upgrade from an older release. How does that work? Say I download this version of Mint and next month there is a newer release. When I go through a "fresh install" of the newer version, do I lose my settings and/or documents?

Mint updates every 6 months and this release is only a few weeks old.
When you upgrade you can zip up your home folder, reinstall and then unzip your home folder and all of your stuff is there. Personally, I have a separate /home partition which helps with the upgrading.

virge wrote:Which machine and which version of linux would you all recommend I start with? I'm looking for something relatively easy to learn to start out. Thanks for any suggestions.

I was _exactly_ where you are at just two short months ago. I had been researching the various distros for a year. The reason I took so long to decide was a combination of factors:

1) I was willing to invest some time talking to others, reading reviews, and studying Linux so I would get a good start.
2) I'm the type that once I choose a project, I stick with it and wanted to be sure I was using my time in the highest and best way.

Also, I was fortunate to know enough people that went before me, a few of which live close by, that are running more than one distro each on different computers. So I had a chance to see SUSE, Red Fedora, Mint, Ubuntu, Mandriva and Debian on others computers. At the end of the day the unanimous vote was for Ubuntu. Also near the end of my research Ubuntu was getting ready to release it's latest LTD (Long Term Distro) called Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron, which will be supported for a full three years. I promptly decided to run it from the CD thereby taking no risks, if I did not like it, as when running from CD nothing is put on your computer. Well that only lasted 30 minutes as I was so impressed that I decided Ubuntu was for me.

Next step was to take one of my old ThinkPads, an R51e with the least amount of resources of any laptop I've ever had. With only a 1.5GHz Celeron, 512MB, 40GB of very slow 4200rpm hdd. On this machine I wiped the drive, loaded Ubuntu, had just one issue which was the Wifi, as it has a ThinkPad card, not Intel. With some searching I easily found the solution and it operated perfectly with everything working just fine. Once again that was short lived as I was very eager to install it on a ThinkPad with more resources, My T60. I also needed to retain windows XP for work, thus I decided to install a second hard drive in the ultra bay. This turned out to be one of the best moves I could have made. Thanks to the generous help I got here on the forum, my specific questions were answered as to how to set it up in a way that I could easily remove the ultrabay drive and replace it with an optical drive if I needed to. Also from time to time I have a need to use my ultra bay battery. So now with it configured this way I could not be happier. Here is how it works:

1) I boot up and if during the boot process I do nothing, then windows is automatically booted to, as it did before I made any changes.
2) I boot up and during the splash screen I push the F12 key, the screen says preparing the boot menu which is only on the screen for a few seconds, and the boot menu appears. It displays the windows drive at the top and the linux drive below. I simply use the down arrow to select the linux drive, hit enter and it boots to Ubuntu in a mere 15 seconds!

The beauty of this arrangement, is that the boot loader "grub" for linux is isolated during the install so it does not write an entry to the master boot record for windows which in some cases can be problematic. The entire linux OS is confined to it's own drive, just like windows remains on it's own drive and the rescue and recovery partition is not disturbed. So I have the best of both worlds. Finally I cannot say enough good things about Ubuntu, they perform significant updates every six months , and regular updates from time to time. I've experienced two updates already in just three weeks or so. Everything worked on my T60 from day one, with no mods, or changes required. My WiFi which is something of great importance to me as I use it everywhere, every day, as my main and only net connection is stellar. A very strong signal is received and I have not had one disconnect.

The Credit and a Big THANKS! Goes out to our moderator GomJabbar!

Without his help I would not have this perfect setup! He's the one to kindly spend his time providing me with a "how to" on setting my T60 up as described above. I could not be happier. It's given me the perfect start I was looking for, as now with a properly operating, stable system, I'm free to focus on learning all about Ubuntu. In fact I've also installed in on the other two ThinkPads I use on a regular basis. (see signature line below).

Hopefully this feedback on my experience is useful to you.
If you have further questions, please ask as I would be very happy to help.

Cheers.....

Thanks to everyone for their input. Linux is completely alien to me so the detailed information is especially appreciated.

I have a week's vacation starting tomorrow and plan on burning a CD with Ubuntu and one with Mint to take with me. It seems like these two are the most recommended. I also like the idea of loading Linux in a second hard drive. That sounds like an ideal situation, but will have to wait until I get the adapter.

After I play around with these distros I'll be back with more questions for sure!

Andy

virge wrote:Thanks to everyone for their input. Linux is completely alien to me so the detailed information is especially appreciated.

I have a week's vacation starting tomorrow and plan on burning a CD with Ubuntu and one with Mint to take with me.

As a fellow alien........ I just thought I would check in and see how you were doing.

Cheers...

I thought I'd add my two cents. I've been playing with dozens of Linux distros for a while now. The easiest to learn is probably PCLinuxOS, its fairly intuitive for 90% of what you need to do, setting up hardware, network and printers is a cinch. The only problem I had was getting used to the names of the programs (K-everything). It can also be slimmed down to run well on anything 500Mhz+ and 256 RAM. Linux Mint is also a fantastic distribution. They make an xfce version (similar to Xubuntu, if you've heard of it) that has a smaller resource footprint. I would start here and work my way up. You probably won't need anything more.

For the 600E, the xfce Linux Mint will probably run fine (depending on your CPU), but I would also check out SliTaz. I just heard about it last week and have been playing with it ever since. It is a 25MB iso image that unpacks to be 80MB, its amazing. It has a nice clean, modern looking graphic interface that doesn't leave you feeling like you're back in 1994 (like DSL does).

I usually also recommend one of the many versions of Puppy Linux. I like Dragon Puppy. Its clean and fairly easy to use. I was up and running, online about 5 minutes after boot up from the cd.

SliTaz
Linux Mint
PCLinuxOS

pikaia wrote:I thought I'd add my two cents.

Thanks for the links and your two cents, I got more than 10 bucks worth from it.....

Cheers

archer6 wrote: As a fellow alien........ I just thought I would check in and see how you were doing.

Cheers...

Thanks for asking. Unfortunately my vacation time was more action packed than I expected so I didn't get a chance to play with the CDs I had burned. As soon as I catch up with my work, I'm going to install Linux Mint on the A31 and give it a go. I'll DEFINITELY be back with questions!

Wow. Interesting reviews. I am just curious which of them would be the closest to Mac OSX in most respects.

This is probably the closest to OS X.

I think it would be better to just take plain ole' Ubuntu and installing the Mac4Lin theme pack.

Could be. I never wanted to turn my Linux into a Mac clone. I just happened to see the mention of a review of gOS the other day.

gOS is actually pretty good if you get the E17 version, although it's buggy.
They switched to GNOME for that reason, but IMO they should of used something equally as light as E17, like LXDE.

Well, after a few false starts, I've finally got Linux Mint installed on my A31. For some reason it wouldn't dual boot with XP. Every time I tried installing with XP on the drive, the partitioning portion of the install would fail. Installing it on a fresh drive worked fine.

The very surprising thing is that it doesn't seem to require any additional drivers. Everything works, even the wireless! I thought Windows was supposed to "consumer friendly" but this was the quickest, easiest install of an OS I've ever done. Awesome so far.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm sure I'll have some questions later.

virge wrote:Well, after a few false starts, I've finally got Linux Mint installed on my A31. For some reason it wouldn't dual boot with XP. Every time I tried installing with XP on the drive, the partitioning portion of the install would fail. Installing it on a fresh drive worked fine.

The very surprising thing is that it doesn't seem to require any additional drivers. Everything works, even the wireless! I thought Windows was supposed to "consumer friendly" but this was the quickest, easiest install of an OS I've ever done. Awesome so far.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm sure I'll have some questions later.

Glad you're enjoying it.

If you want to harness the full power of a unix-like operating system I would look at what you can do with the shell. It's just so flexible and I try to urge all new linux users to embrace it as it will be your best friend, and it's best to treat it as such instead of some backwards, primitive way of doing things.

You don't need the mind of a programmer or even a technical person to make great use of it.

Aside from that, on most older hardware(I mean old as in pre-2007, which isn't really old) most if not all of your hardware will work out of the box, even on my T61 if I have my intel wireless card installed Fedora works out of the box. It's usually the same kernel too in most Linux variations, so if you can get something to work in Ubuntu, but can't in Fedora, it's usually going to be easy to rectify.

Happy uh... Linux-ing..

Windows is only consumer friendly because most people get it pre-installed.
I had to install XP on my T20 the other day, and it was a nightmare.

My vote is for Ubuntu or Kubuntu. Both are the same thing except the GUI. GNOME (Ubuntu) is a simplistic GUI but if you want something more sophisticated KDE (Kubuntu) is a better choice IMO. I have used Ubuntu and Kubuntu on my own computers and OpenSuse and Fedora at school. I'm still somewhat of a Linux noob, but I am learning.

I'm totally new to Linux, and would like to seek your guidance as to what version of Linux to install for my Thinkpad T23. My primary interest in Linux is that it does not attract virus like the Windows XP home on my T23. I do a lot of educational research on the internet and also write/receive lots of emails. Since Linux has so many versions, each with its strengths over another, I thought if I list below my "needs" it might help zero in on the likeliest Linux version for my T23:

1. A linux that can painlessly connect to my built-in wireless, Intel a/b/g.

2. A linux to use Firefox browser, any version.

3. A Linux email client that can import/export email files and addresses from Outlook Express that I have accumulated over the years.

4. To be able to view news videos from mainstream news websites, such as: CNN, BBC, plus youtube

5. Ability to receive audio streaming from web radio stations.

6. Ability to save videos and audio files from the internet for later use.

7. Hopefully, a Linux package that has all the drivers needed to run the hardware in the T23 without having to hunt for them.

My Linux needs are basically to enable me to do most things that a web surfer usually does.

I will be most grateful if you, experienced Linux users, can help me.